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[Terraneaux]

Shandepared wrote...

Terraneaux wrote...

What about when he leaked the information that you were working for Cerberus to the Council?

I've seen plenty of speculation about his reasons. Ultimately when I spoke to them (actually I never even got the chance) it was clear that the Council wouldn't have cared that I was working for Cerberus. They don't even believe in the Reaper threat so what difference does it make?

What information does TIM have that makes him believe that he's not giving them?  What information made the council change their minds between the end of ME1 (when they thought it was time to go after the reapers) and ME2 (Where they won't give Shepard the time of day).  If they didn't think Shepard was working for Cerberus, then why wouldn't they send him out to save the damn galaxy?  One of three things is true: 1. TIM knows something the council doesn't that makes him think the Reaper threat is real, which makes him a bastard for not telling them.  2. The council knows something that TIM doesn't that makes them think the Reaper threat is not real (unlikely, considering that we know as third party observers that the Reapers are real) or 3.  The council was written incongruously, and TIM was made impossibly competent next to the rest of the setthing's characters, to make the 'dark second act' fit.  

[Terraneaux]

Raphael diSanto wrote...

Regardless of how you feel about them, without Cerberus we wouldn't even have a Mass Effect 2.

It could have just been written in a manner that didn't require extensive retconning, a railroad of a plot, and a severe stretch of the suspension of disbelief.  Then we would have had Mass Effect 2 without the bad parts.

[Terraneaux]

Shandepared wrote...

jklinders wrote...


And if the means to the end of defeating the reapers is to become as bad as or worse than them...

More childish crap. You can feel bad about about surviving later, that's the luxury of being alive.

The funny thing is, I agree with you on that, but I still disagree on Cerberus.  

[Terraneaux]

Shandepared wrote...

Terraneaux wrote...



What information does TIM have that makes him believe that he's not giving them?

I don't know but that is a good question. It could simply be that he's just not as stuborn as they are. After all, what information does Anderson have that makes him believe?

Anderson trusts Shepard to a fault.  Remember that business with Shepard's visions in ME1?  He believed them more than you did.  

[Raphael diSanto]

Terraneaux wrote...
 3.  The council was written incongruously, and TIM was made impossibly competent next to the rest of the setthing's characters, to make the 'dark second act' fit.  

See, I -like- the way the council was written off as impossibly incompetent. It fits with the impression I got of them from ME1.. Of course, most of my Sheps in ME1 spend their time cutting the connection on them since they kept second guessing me, getting in the way and not letting me do my job.

I hate politicians.

[Raphael diSanto]

Shandepared wrote...

JohnnyDollar wrote...

What is your alternative to defeat the Reapers? 

You aren't adressing me but to be honest I was surprised and disappointed to see the Council ignoring the Reaper threat. Udina makes a really passionate speech about it at the end of Mass Effect; that's why I chose him as Councilor. I still hope that he'll come around. I'm not even angry at the guy... just disappointed.

Mass Effect 2 went in a direction I never could have imagined and in some ways don't like. That's getting off-topic (again) though...

Eh, Udina's a politician. He'll say anything to get you to vote/whatever for him. He doesn't care. He'd have jumped at the chance to be in Saren's shoes, if he were given the chance? Sell out humanity to save myself? Sure, where do I sign?

[Terraneaux]

Shandepared wrote...

JohnnyDollar wrote...

What is your alternative to defeat the Reapers? 

You aren't adressing me but to be honest I was surprised and disappointed to see the Council ignoring the Reaper threat. Udina makes a really passionate speech about it at the end of Mass Effect; that's why I chose him as Councilor. I still hope that he'll come around. I'm not even angry at the guy... just disappointed.

Mass Effect 2 went in a direction I never could have imagined and in some ways don't like. That's getting off-topic (again) though...

I also agree wholeheatedly.  I was somewhat happy to hear about Udina ordering some fleets to bomb the **** out of the batarians, though.  That was what I was hoping for when I put him there.  

[RyuGuitarFreak]

Nope. They do accomplish something good, I am grateful they reanimated Shepard and their help, I like (well not from the start, but still ended up liking her) Miranda and Jacob, but I don't trust the Illusive Man, not at all. Like someone said, he always looks to be hiding something. And they're too extreme sometimes, like Akuze and all their stuff on ME1 or the Collector ship on ME2. I actually supported his take on Horizon.



My Shepard is Sole Survivor, but I've got to respect them a little. We see in ME2 they're not the devils we think they are. At least the Lazarus division. The crew on Normandy SR2 is nice, I would steal them for the Alliance anytime.

[Terraneaux]

Raphael diSanto wrote...

Terraneaux wrote...
 3.  The council was written incongruously, and TIM was made impossibly competent next to the rest of the setthing's characters, to make the 'dark second act' fit.  

See, I -like- the way the council was written off as impossibly incompetent. It fits with the impression I got of them from ME1.. Of course, most of my Sheps in ME1 spend their time cutting the connection on them since they kept second guessing me, getting in the way and not letting me do my job.

I hate politicians.

I would be fine if they also made Cerberus just as bad, instead of all this equivocating and things like not being able to bring up Akuze.  If it was more of a 'everyone in the galaxy has their heads screwed up, and only Shepard and his team can go it alone and save the galaxy' i would have been more okay with it.  Instead we have this seemingly omnicompetent organization that's also the darling of the writing team who makes you betray everything you stood for in the first game, and a good portion of your friends and lovers from the first game betray you.  It really served to take the reins out of the hands of the player and it feels like I have much less power to influence the story than in ME1.  Small consolation that TIM's voiced by Martin Sheen.  

[Lord Coake]

Neither of my Sheps will ever support Cerberus.  TIM and the organization's upper echelons perfectly willing to talk about "Not letting their idealism stop them from making hard choices" and "Doing what best for humanity" so long as they aren't the ones paying the price for those choices.  They're pathetic cowards, manipulators and vile crimminals to a man, and if the option to wipe them out and purge the entire organization with fire and steel exists in ME3, you can be dammed sure it'll happen.

Screw Cerberus.

[Raphael diSanto]

Terraneaux wrote...

Raphael diSanto wrote...

Terraneaux wrote...
 3.  The council was written incongruously, and TIM was made impossibly competent next to the rest of the setthing's characters, to make the 'dark second act' fit.  

See, I -like- the way the council was written off as impossibly incompetent. It fits with the impression I got of them from ME1.. Of course, most of my Sheps in ME1 spend their time cutting the connection on them since they kept second guessing me, getting in the way and not letting me do my job.

I hate politicians.

I would be fine if they also made Cerberus just as bad, instead of all this equivocating and things like not being able to bring up Akuze.

Ah, now this I totally agree with. I would have liked to have been able to rail at TIM for Cerberus' past actions too, although plot-wise that probably wouldn't have changed anything, since either Shep works for Cerberus or the game ends.

It would have been nice to have had the option, after Freedom's Progress to say "Hey, TIM, thanks for the ship, but I'm outta here and heading back to sign on with the council. See ya on the flipside, dude.".. Too much content, perhaps? I don't know. I don't see any reason why we couldn't have just had two completely alternate paths in the game, with TIM and Anderson being basically replaceable.

The plot would remain the same. Everything would remain the same, except that you'd talk to something different and get emails from someone different..

But we didn't, and so in the world as presented to me.. Which, I have to admit, I by and large accept - I guess I'm an easy-to-please customer - Cerberus aren't good guys. But they are the only ones doing -something-

[Terraneaux]

Raphael diSanto wrote...

But we didn't, and so in the world as presented to me.. Which, I have to admit, I by and large accept - I guess I'm an easy-to-please customer - Cerberus aren't good guys. But they are the only ones doing -something-

This is why they should have had you be tasked by Anderson or Udina to infiltrate Cerberus - same missions, same briefings, even, just a little bit of different dialog when you first get to the Citadel and at the end, where you turn the base over to the Council rather than destroy it.  

[Raphael diSanto]

Terraneaux wrote...

Raphael diSanto wrote...

But we didn't, and so in the world as presented to me.. Which, I have to admit, I by and large accept - I guess I'm an easy-to-please customer - Cerberus aren't good guys. But they are the only ones doing -something-

This is why they should have had you be tasked by Anderson or Udina to infiltrate Cerberus - same missions, same briefings, even, just a little bit of different dialog when you first get to the Citadel and at the end, where you turn the base over to the Council rather than destroy it.  

Well, BioWare missed a lot of opportunities along the way in both ME1 and ME2. Kill the Rachni Queen? Why do I have to decide that, why can't I just get the Council to decide? The lack of opportunity to hand over the collectors base to the council is the same terrible oversight.

But I'm not going to complain about that sort of thing, because it serves no purpose. I play the game (and roleplay my shepard in-universe) as it's presented to me and if BioWare have decided that the Council are a bunch of incompetents, then so be it. They're a bunch of incompetents.

I'm more than happy to suspend disbelief. None of my Sheps ever actually actively -like- Cerberus, per se. But even the Paragon boy scout accepts that no one else is gonna give him a brand new Normandy to run around the galaxy and shoot bugs.

[Beholderess]

Terraneaux wrote...

Shandepared wrote...

I don't know, I'm not terribly knowledgable about the ins-and-outs of impossible communications systems that could never possibly exist in real-life. However TIM makes it very clear why he doesn't tell you. I have yet to hear a logical reason why he'd betray Shepard like that after going to great expense to ressurect him and provide him the tools necessary to stop the Collectors.

Remember 'Cerberus IS humanity?' at the end of the game.  TIM is not a utilitarian.  A world in which he does not have power is not a worthwhile one, for TIM.  A universe in which the Reapers win but Cerberus loses is still a loss to him; that's why he doesn't bother working towards that eventuality.  

Good one. The moment TIM raved that Cerberus IS humanity I became absolutely sure that Cerberus cannot be trusted.

By the way, "supporting Cerberus" and "working with them on this particular mission" are two different things. It seems like many people overlook the difference. It is perfectly possible to accept their help against Reapers, but still do everything in one's power to hamper this organisation's other, non-Reaper related projects (like, the torture of children, feeding marines to Thresher Maws, world domination etc)

[enormousmoonboots]

The thing that I don't buy about the 'didn't want to tip off the Collectors' excuse (and tip them off how, through physical cues? Certainly not facial expressions, helmet. And how would a Collector be able to read human body language? They have no cultural context in which to view humanity and understand the subtle cues of body language. Hell, people who actually STUDY body language admit that it's a bit of a crapshoot) is that Mordin tells you before this that the Collectors are barely sentient enough to follow orders. All of their 'tactical thinking' is done by DIRECT CONTROL via Harbinger. For these reasons, how could they possibly be 'tipped off' by Shepard's actions?

And secondly--everyone I know took their rifles out and started grabbing cover like they were about to pop out any second ANYWAY. That sure seems like it would tip them off.

Morality aside, his reluctance to share indicates a few possibilities--
1) He is actually dumb enough to think it's a good idea. (this has doomed the galaxy FOUR TIMES on my Insanity run)
2) He is a megalomaniacal egotist who wants to hold all the cards, ALL of the time.
3) He is actively working against you.

Whichever is true, no possibility is going to be able to manage a good working relationship.

Modifié par enormousmoonboots, 11 mars 2010 - 07:16 .