427 réponses à ce sujet

[Multifarious Algorithm]

Working with Cerberus isn't anti-paragon, in the sense that Cerberus can't really order you about. Your and there objectives happen to coincide. It would be different if they were telling you to go and do Cerberus missions like "assassinate an alliance admiral".
You get to abandon them after the mission is done - the mission is unquestionably a good one, what you do with the base when it's done is very much a different question (and does break down as paragon/renegade).
If the Empire told Luke there was a much worse enemy coming for everyone, gave him a ship and resources to go and fight it - that would be the story we have in ME2.
EDIT: Also my point about Telton was that while it's stated by the staff TIM didn't know the full extent of what they were doing, the question is which parts of it he did know - i.e. the kidnapping of children, experiments on Jack etc.

Modifié par Multifarious Algorithm, 09 mars 2010 - 12:49 .

[Splinter Cell 108]

I don't support Cerberus. Especially not when someone like the Illusive Man is in charge. First they can't even manage their own organization, the people who had Subject Zero wen rogue and did whatever they pleased. Who knows how many other cells have gone bad too. Second they do business with cuthroats such as Paul Grayson and Pel, I can't be expected to trust those kinds of people. Third they will do anything even create a Reaper to make humanity dominant. Humanity needs to advance with the rest of the community not leave them all behind and take over.

[Computron2000]

Asheer_Khan wrote...
No... fact that Bioware actually FORCED paragon players (especially whit sole survivor background) to work whit this galactic cancer named Cerberus WITHOUT a single option to break that cooperation after for example Horizon events is something what will not be easy to forgiving...

To me its more like a temporary cease fire against a bigger enemy with war re-declared after the bigger enemy is destroyed. This is very common if you look at civil wars fought in RL.

[Lord Abrasion]

Shandepared wrote...

Lord Abrasion wrote...

Careful, kid. Your selective memory is showing.

Elaborate please. Last I checked the Reaper IFF is what got you through the Omega-4 Relay. Without that you'd have never gotten through and you'd have never gotten that IFF without Cerberus. If my memory is selective then yours is non-existant.

It WAS a trap. Remember how the IFF infected the Normandy's systems with a virus that disabled the ship and transmitted the location of the Normandy to the Collectors so they could come and abduct the crew?

[Asheer_Khan]

Reaper IFF comes from DEAD REAPER (where you find Legion too) not from Klendagon rift station...

[Barquiel]

Splinter Cell 108 wrote...

Third they will do anything even create a Reaper to make humanity dominant. Humanity needs to advance with the rest of the community not leave them all behind and take over.

I agree.

I'm not saving the galaxy so Tim can turn it into a human tyranny (or create new reaper).

[Lord Abrasion]

Shandepared wrote...

Lord Abrasion wrote...

It WAS a trap. Remember how the IFF infected the Normandy's systems with a virus that disabled the ship and transmitted the location of the Normandy to the Collectors so they could come and abduct the crew?

Yes, but without it you wouldn't have gotten through the Omega-4 Relay. It was a trap you needed to spring. Please, I insist, tell me how you'd have gotten through the Omega-4 Relay without using the IFF.

Yes, you needed the IFF but that doesn't change the fact that it was a trap. A fact that you seemed to conveniently ignore for the sake of your own argument.

[Computron2000]

Shandepared wrote...
Liberal stupidity at its finest.

Exactly, sign up for Iraq now! Show those sons of ****es who's boss! Don't go NATO (No Action, Talk Only) on us!

[Multifarious Algorithm]

The IFF is utterly tangential to the discussion. The discussion is whether Cerberus is good or bad. Cerberus essentially does blue-sky research without any type of ethical guidelines. They are definitely not good - the good things they achieve they can achieve without the bad.

[Barquiel]

Shandepared wrote...

Liberal stupidity at its finest.

The Illusive Man wants to keep the base; why? enlighten us...

intel?
EDI scanned the base's database and received all the available data on the reapers

collector tech?
Their tech is useless (unless you want to make a reaper). I doubt the Collectors have anything that will help against the reaper fleet (their ship wasn't that advanced)

I hope we can destroy cerberus in ME3!

[Multifarious Algorithm]

Shandepared wrote...

Multifarious Algorithm wrote...

They are definitely not good - the good things they achieve they can achieve without the bad.

Really? Prove it. You'd be surprised how dirty advancement can be.

Would I? That people sometimes die during medical experiments is tragic - but it doesn't happen because we elect for it to, it happens even after we implement the strict guidelines, safety protocols and preliminary testing.
Cerberus runs in isolated cells, and someone pointed it out before: there's nothing about building the Normandy, developing it's AI (well, maybe a little depending how you view synthetic rights) or resurrecting Shepard (apparently - no other test subjects) which requires any of the terrible things Cerberus does (Telton, experiments on children in Ascension, wiping out an entire colony by turning them into husks in ME1) to be done.
Human technology - here in the real world - doesn't advance by us torturing and murdering people, and by all the evidence Cerberus doesn't progress it it in the ME world except to satiate TIM's weird desire to build more powerful biotics.
EDIT: Why don't you show me an example of this "dirty" advancement you seem so keen is necessary from real history. And no - the technology we develop during wartimes would not fall under this banner.

Modifié par Multifarious Algorithm, 09 mars 2010 - 01:15 .

[GenericPlayer2]

No because Cerberus manipulates people and facts to get what it wants, it does not lead. TIM and the organization as a whole carries zero credibility with me.

[Asheer_Khan]

@Shandepared.



There is on Youtube video where all squad members (including Shepard) have died during C-base mission but station itself have been handed over to Timmy and right after Timmy finish talk whit Joker he turned on holo projection of that station whit FOUR (if i recall correct) CERBERUS ships closing by...



If Timmy WAS able to equip so many ships whit IFF devices to fly through Omega 4 then why he send Shepard to dead reaper in first place instead of delivering via his agents such device during one of the "pitstops" on Illum, Omega or even Citadel?



Sending Shepard to ship which could any time fail in that red dwarf killing her and whole Normandy crew was really high risk gamble and furthermore, that science team must be in that reaper pretty long to get indoctrinated since whole process is pretty slow and subtle in order not to alarmed indoctrinated subject before will be too late for anything.

Then explain me why that team didn't recover that IFF device right before they arrived when thier will was free from indoctrination influence?



WHAT IF they DID recover such, replicated for Cerberus ships and later on special team delivered ALTERED Reaper IFF device whit that virus and placed him right near Reaper core so Timmy could play this whole "Shepard i founded how you can fly through Omega 4" comedy...



And for those who say that Timmy provided ship for Shepard... Hello!!! ONLY CERBERUS have shipyards in whole galaxy???

And whole reviving aspect... that was ONLY because apparently Marc Walters is same Cerberus lover as many people here and he excluded possibility that for example Asari too have "tools" to revive Shepard (maybe even cheaper than Lazarus costs) since they are thousand years old civilization and combined Asari/Turian effort could provide Shepard whit perhaps similar IF not much better ship as Normandy II.

But Mr Walters must go in typical Hollywood cannon where Humanity is on the first place and every other species are nothing more as galaxy dust without purpose...

[Beholderess]

Shandepared wrote...

Multifarious Algorithm wrote...

They are definitely not good - the good things they achieve they can achieve without the bad.

Really? Prove it. You'd be surprised how dirty advancement can be.

I think you are confusing an ability to achieve the result quickly and in expedient manner with an ability to achieve result at all.
Progress can be achieved without resorting to unethical methods - it would simply take more time. Much more time, in some cases.
Oh, and if you say that wasting human lives just to get the result quicker is justified - ask yourself: Would you give your own daughter to be experimented upon, horribly tortured and then killed in the name of fast advancement?

[Multifarious Algorithm]

Shandepared wrote...

Multifarious Algorithm wrote...

Human technology - here in the real world - doesn't advance by us torturing and murdering people, and by all the evidence Cerberus doesn't progress it it in the ME world except to satiate TIM's weird desire to build more powerful biotics.

I wish that were true but our world has been built with blood be it through research or conquest.

Great so you should have no trouble coming up with an example, remembering of course that technologies developed to help fight wars were not developed by committing the acts those wars generally sought to stop. Rather then a vague unverifiable statement.

EDIT @Beholderess: its generally a myth that any good comes of ethically unsound experiments. The idea that there are useful shortcuts to be had by doing terrible things requires some generally convoluted logic to arrive at that's at odds to actual good research practices.

Modifié par Multifarious Algorithm, 09 mars 2010 - 01:35 .

[FlintlockJazz]

Shandepared wrote...

FlintlockJazz wrote...

Thats fine until you are one of those thousands.

Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country.

And it was that line that led to millions of young men being thrown to their deaths by people who did not care one bit about them or their country but their own advancement in World War 1.  The people in power say that, but do you really think they would have managed to get into power if they truly believed it?  They will throw your life away to save their lives, and they will do it with a smile and a pat on the head.

[FlintlockJazz]

Computron2000 wrote...

FlintlockJazz wrote...
Thats fine until you are one of those thousands.  Do you really think that those people who make those decisions in real life will ever sacrifice themselves?  No they will not, and it is this naivety that allows them to continue in power, slowly massaging their genitals while ordering your death 'for the good of all'.

Agreed. In short "The abuse of greatness is when it disjoins remorse from power"

Exactly.  Sometimes hard choices need to be made, but when a group gives up any attempt at all to avoid making such 'necessary' decisions then everything becomes a 'necessary' decision.