427 réponses à ce sujet

[Lord Abrasion]

Shandepared wrote...

Multifarious Algorithm wrote...

Great so you should have no trouble coming up with an example, remembering of course that technologies developed to help fight wars were not developed by committing the acts those wars generally sought to stop. Rather then a vague unverifiable statement.

The United States as a country or perhaps more generally a lot of the stuff we know about the human body. There used to be quite a market for corpses in less enlightened times, and the buyers prefered fresh corpses.

If you want more examples I suggest you read history book. You might learn something.

So you're saying that it was perfectly alright that Burke and Hare murdered innocent people and sold their bodies to a doctor because we learned more about anatomy?

[jklinders]

Cerberus has a place in the scheme of things. Any would be major power needs someone to do the dirty work. Of coarse the more sane powers tend to have direct oversight on their shadow organizations. Last I checked TIM answers only to a few unelected businessmen. An Illuminati is probably closer to the truth. All fighting for a NWO.

If I combine the above with Cerberus' horrible track record, then any notion of allowing that group to continue under it's current organization is nothing short of madness. Sorry, I can't call it anything else.



Akuze and corporal Toomes, not only unnecessary but a public relations disaster, clearly shows little control in research or cleaning up after themselves.

Telton facility and Jack. 3 words, Crime against humanity. Not to mention, again Cerberus' perfect security organization allowed their test subject to get free and destroy the place. Really worth while. Anyone else seeing a pattern here? Their experiments tend to blow up.

Political assassination, hijacking democracy in the Alliance and likely on Earth. Maybe not a screw up as such, but who can trust them if you can NEVER disagree with them.

Destroying colonies with husk spikes. Uh WTF??? Next!

Top secret lazarus project destroyed by a doctor who should not have had the security clearance to even speak to the mechs, much less reprogram them. It really is quite sad that the best thing that could be said about TIM there is that he may have hired Wilson to do it. otherwise he is ultimately responsible for a security breach that could have destroyed 2 years of work and made a bust of Cerberus for no practical benefit.

Oh and my personal favorite, losing control of their test subjects when experimenting on Rachni. yeah like THAT can't go horribly wrong. Honestly at this point I want to take a BB gun and shoot it at the walls of jack's cell on Telton to see if it just paper mache with metallic paint on it. Obviously these idiots cannot even build a cell much less be trusted with anything more dangerous than a pack of wet matches.

Entire science team indoctrinated on dead reaper. And TIM has the nerve to tell me he will get it right on the collector base?

In closing, is it really so wrong for me to use them for as long as it suits me then get off the train at the first available moment before it derails AGAIN?

[Asheer_Khan]

One more time, Paragons should not even boarding this train in first place but they simply don't have any choice in that matter... that's why my each talks whit Timmy are colder that North Pole winter night and i devoted my effort in three goals.

1. ****** off Timmy (priceless)
2. Turn Normandy Crew on the Light Side.(4 times 100% success)
3. Stop Harbinger without single lost on my side (that's looks bad in report and i was each time 100% successfull )

Modifié par Asheer_Khan, 09 mars 2010 - 02:30 .

[jklinders]

Asheer_Khan wrote...

One more time, Paragons should not even boarding this train in first place but they simply don't have any choice in that matter... that's why my each talks whit Timmy are colder that North Pole winter night and i devoted my effort in three goals.

1. ****** off Timmy (priceless)
2. Turn Normandy Crew on the Light Side.(4 times 100% success)
3. Stop Harbinger without single lost on my side (that's looks bad in report and i was each time 100% successfull )

A good half of my renegade points come from my little chats with TIM. Poor bugger is like Rodney Dangerfield, he just can't get no respect from me:devil:

Stealing his ship is just icing on the cake.

[Multifarious Algorithm]

Asheer_Khan wrote...

One more time, Paragons should not even boarding this train in first place but they simply don't have any choice in that matter... that's why my each talks whit Timmy are colder that North Pole winter night and i devoted my effort in three goals.

1. ****** off Timmy (priceless)
2. Turn Normandy Crew on the Light Side.(4 times 100% success)
3. Stop Harbinger without single lost on my side (that's looks bad in report and i was each time 100% successfull )

Your obsession that you should've somehow had a way to not work with Cerberus is well...obsessive. The way you played the game speaks directly to what a paragon Shepard would do in the situation, but I find the notion that you shouldn't work with them at all somewhat ridiculous. It's not like Shepard has a lot of other options - and certainly not the case that any other power would bring him back to life at the expense they did.

[Multifarious Algorithm]

Lord Abrasion wrote...

Shandepared wrote...

Multifarious Algorithm wrote...

Great so you should have no trouble coming up with an example, remembering of course that technologies developed to help fight wars were not developed by committing the acts those wars generally sought to stop. Rather then a vague unverifiable statement.

The United States as a country or perhaps more generally a lot of the stuff we know about the human body. There used to be quite a market for corpses in less enlightened times, and the buyers prefered fresh corpses.

If you want more examples I suggest you read history book. You might learn something.

So you're saying that it was perfectly alright that Burke and Hare murdered innocent people and sold their bodies to a doctor because we learned more about anatomy?

He's also supporting the genocide of the native peoples of the US as integral for it's development. It's a dark path once you start approving of that sort of thing. I mean how many deaths is too many, and who are you ok with sacrificing? If the Reapers are truthful - salvation through destruction - then is liquefying mankind ok since they're going to make us into a transcendalist race? Give us our future?
Even the Geth appreciate the journey is as important as the destination. Man this thread has made telling TIM "I'm going to stop the Reapers and I'll do it without losing the soul of our species" seem all that more important.

EDIT: Also of great irony is that early anatomical information did very little to help us treat or cure disease. Even the data providing for surgery was less then useful in a world without aneathesia, antibiotics or the germ theory of disease. It's also laughable to suggest that we couldn't and wouldn't have acquired that information without murdering innocent people. Moreover to compare the sale corpses (barring those intentionally killed) to the torture of living people - real or fictional - is insane.

Modifié par Multifarious Algorithm, 09 mars 2010 - 02:57 .

[Asheer_Khan]

Multifarious Algorithm wrote...

Asheer_Khan wrote...

One more time, Paragons should not even boarding this train in first place but they simply don't have any choice in that matter... that's why my each talks whit Timmy are colder that North Pole winter night and i devoted my effort in three goals.

1. ****** off Timmy (priceless)
2. Turn Normandy Crew on the Light Side.(4 times 100% success)
3. Stop Harbinger without single lost on my side (that's looks bad in report and i was each time 100% successfull )

Your obsession that you should've somehow had a way to not work with Cerberus is well...obsessive. The way you played the game speaks directly to what a paragon Shepard would do in the situation, but I find the notion that you shouldn't work with them at all somewhat ridiculous. It's not like Shepard has a lot of other options - and certainly not the case that any other power would bring him back to life at the expense they did.

I known that i sounds obsessed but i come from country which suffer great deal of damages from two crazy ideologies in past Century (lebensraum and socialistic paradise) and that's why i known where could lead such "Cerberus is Humanity" speeches...

And that's why i decided to play as Alliance wolf in Cerberus sheep skin and work to turn everybody against Timmy.
I would use little altered words of Mr Spock when he explain Cpt Picard his motives why he push reunification idea despite risk of  walking in a trap.

"If Cerberus do have alterior motives, it is in best interest of all that we (players) determine what it is so i will play the role i should be play" .

[jklinders]

It should be noted that Burke and Hare would never have had their "business" in the first place if it was legal to study the human body in the ways doctors needed to to advance. I blame the anti-science that was the organized religion of the day for creating that black market in the first place.There are several instances where noted scientists had secretly studied bodies outside the view of the Church. But damn, I never thought about where those bodies might have come from.



Sometimes the old axiom, evil begets evil is perfectly accurate.

[Bwaksson]

Barquiel wrote...

I think TIM hand-picked some moderates for the crew of the Normandy (I doubt Kelly is a typical Cerberus member)

I think TIM hand-picked the people needed for the mission to work. To have xenophobic crew members wouldn't be productive in the Lazarus cell, since the alien allies are so important.
Miranda mentions that many join them out of simple xenophobia, and i doubt TIM would tell them to get lost just because they have motivations beyond his own. There's bound to be missions were xenophobia is even an asset.

I think that TIM is honest about his motives (Unless he's a reaper in disguise like Saren or indoctrinated).
He does say nothing more or less than the *don'tremeberword* of humanity. I.e. he's prepared to sacrifice every alien out there if it proves necessary. And if it isn't he won't. And just as in Asimov's zero law or Spock's 'need of the many', humanity is more worth than any number of individual humans.

After the collector ship mission Shepard can say "I don't like being kept in the dark" or something to that effect to which TIM answers "Neither would I" And thats the reason I don't trust him. I agree with his goal and don't mind his methods but I don't like being on the recieving end.

Modifié par Bwaksson, 09 mars 2010 - 04:59 .

[Flamewielder]

Shepard needs Cerberus' help to stop the Reaper threat. Without Cerberus, he'd still be dead. Without Cerberus, he'd have no ship. Even with access to Spectre resources (assuming you accepted re-instatement), the Council is not being helpful.



That being said, I don't like being manipulated and I'm sure Shepard doesn't either. TIM's witholding critical information from Shepard, essentially making him a pawn. Shepard's not gonna put up with it for long... and neither would I.



Do I support an Organization that experiments on unwilling innocents? No. Do I support an organization who got my unit slaughtered by thresher maws? No. Do I support an organization who disregard safety protocols in experimenting with the rachni, allowing aggressive subjects to be released in the wild? No. Do I support an organization that promotes terrorism as a negociation tool? No.



TIM either knew about these actions, making him a monster, or he was unaware of it, in which case he's not competent enought to manage his own organization. Either way, Shepard would be a fool to support Cerberus.



The Alliance may have given up on Shepard but it still represents and serve Humanity in the ME universe. The Alliance military probably still upholds the values and ideals of Humanity, even is some of its members are no doubt sympathetic to Cerberus. You'll find xenophobes anywhere... even among non-humans.



Like Anderson my Shepard believes in Humanity getting the best deal it can. The Reaper threat is too big for Humanity alone to fight. That means earning respect from both the Human leadership and the other Council races. No human supremacist organisation can achieve that.



Whatever help TIM is getting from my Shepard is coerced through misinformation or veiled threats. Whatever Shepard can do to take TIM and Cerberus down, he'll do.

[JeanLuc761]

I don't trust them and their human-supremacist ideals (or as Illusive Man puts it, human-survivalist) but when it comes to dealing with an active threat, Cerberus knows what it takes to get the job done.



I owe them a debt of gratitude for saving my life and for supporting me throughout, even if it didn't necessarily fall into their plans. I thank them for devoting so many resources to me and my squadmates.



I respect them for what they've done for me, but I don't trust their eventual endgame. I fully expect the Illusive Man to sabotage me at some point for destroying the Collector Base.

[eternalnightmare13]

Anyone else remember when you first talk to TIM you have the option of asking him if you can trust Miranda/Jacob? I believe it is when you are talking about going to Freedom's Progress. TIM responds with ''you'll be fine with them'' and then mutters under his breath ''for now''. I always wondered what the signifigance of that was. Maybe it was to create a sense of pararnoia/doubt in the player. Or maybe there is a going to be a double cross down the road not in ME2 obviously, but ME3?

[DVACDK]

I belive the "for now" line was meant as "they are fine for now, but you will need others later"

[Valmy]

Nope. I support the Council's vision of inter-species cooperation.



Imperfect but I think it promises the best outcome in the long term.

[Karstedt]

I support... dat azz!

[MassAffected]

I do NOT support Cerberus, even the Cerberus agents don't support Cerberus. After EDI's lock on info is released you find out that the Illusive Man actually DID know about all these projects (not that I ever believed that "rogue cell" crap). He keeps a very small ammount of active cells so that he is able to oversee everything personally. The guy has done more to hurt humanity with all his crazy ideas. Turning a colony into husks and Thorian Creepers. Creating Rachni. The list goes on. Every single playthrough I'll blow up the base and tell him to go pound dirt.

[eternalnightmare13]

Cerberus Commando wrote...

Do you guys really think the illusive man would double cross shepard?

TIM often refers to Shephard as an a valueable asset.  Once Shep loses value I think TIM will attempt to kill him.  Probably dissect him and study the effects that 'rebirth' had on him.  See how things worked. Maybe keep him alive in a tank or something and run experiments on him.  I don't see TIM just 'spacing' Shephard since he invested a ton of credits in him and would want some return for his investment even if he has the base.   Of course Shep won't stand for that nor will his friends on the Normandy. 

[Computron2000]

eternalnightmare13 wrote...
TIM often refers to Shephard as an a valueable asset.  Once Shep loses value I think TIM will attempt to kill him.  Probably dissect him and study the effects that 'rebirth' had on him.  See how things worked. Maybe keep him alive in a tank or something and run experiments on him.  I don't see TIM just 'spacing' Shephard since he invested a ton of credits in him and would want some return for his investment even if he has the base.   Of course Shep won't stand for that nor will his friends on the Normandy. 

Not much would be gained from dissecting Shepard given that Cerberus ressurected him in the first place. However, 2 quick and easy low hanging fruit is available

If you got Shepard unconscious, put in a control chip. Make a few youtube or whatever its called then videos and put it on the extranet having Shepard endorse Cerberus

Second would be to use Shepard as a spy. His eyes are cybernetic and ears as well, whats to say its not transmitting information? It does not hinder Shepard at all unlike a control chip, so TIM may have already placed it inside.

[The Unfallen]

While I do support humanity (as they are my race) I do not believe they are superior to all other races. I believe all races are equal... unlike Cerberus. However, when it came down to the Collector base I chose to destroy it. Aaaaaaand TIM is a douche-bag.

[Terraneaux]

Multifarious Algorithm wrote...

Your obsession that you should've somehow had a way to not work with Cerberus is well...obsessive. The way you played the game speaks directly to what a paragon Shepard would do in the situation, but I find the notion that you shouldn't work with them at all somewhat ridiculous. It's not like Shepard has a lot of other options - and certainly not the case that any other power would bring him back to life at the expense they did.

No, a Paragon Shep would have hijacked the shuttle out of the first station and head straight to council space to turn Miranda and Jacob in.  The REASON Shepard doesn't have that option is the same reason that the council has decided not to believe in the Reapers for no good reason - bad writing and railroading.

[enormousmoonboots]

Shandepared wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

Splinter Cell 108 wrote...

Third
they will do anything even create a Reaper to make humanity dominant.
Humanity needs to advance with the rest of the community not leave them
all behind and take over.

I agree.

I'm not saving the galaxy so Tim can turn it into a human tyranny (or create new reaper).

Liberal stupidity at its finest.

Trolling at its finest.

[GenericPlayer2]

Terraneaux wrote...

Multifarious Algorithm wrote...

Your obsession that you should've somehow had a way to not work with Cerberus is well...obsessive. The way you played the game speaks directly to what a paragon Shepard would do in the situation, but I find the notion that you shouldn't work with them at all somewhat ridiculous. It's not like Shepard has a lot of other options - and certainly not the case that any other power would bring him back to life at the expense they did.

No, a Paragon Shep would have hijacked the shuttle out of the first station and head straight to council space to turn Miranda and Jacob in.  The REASON Shepard doesn't have that option is the same reason that the council has decided not to believe in the Reapers for no good reason - bad writing and railroading.

Agreed. Let me speak for Renegade Shep - I went to Freedom's Progress and got Miranda and Jacob both killed by the YMIR Mech before taking it out myself. My plan was to then kidnap Veetor and take his evidence to Anderson and see what I can do from there. Unfortunately the game mechanics brought Miranda/Jacob back to life when the YMIR went down. So yeah, bad writing and railroading.

[Sesshomaru47]

No. Read Ascension.

[Cmdr. 31]

NO!
why? 

in ME3 I want to have those 39 Turian dreadnoughts at my flank