427 réponses à ce sujet

[Alexandus]

bobobo878 wrote...

Alexandus wrote...


Quite. Liberals are the type to put their government in utter and complete power. Which doesn't work out very well, if you've read 1984 by any chance, or heard anything about the Soviet Union.

Funny, 1984 also had lots of references to violations of privacy rights and torture, both conservative policies.
Liberals and Conservatives simply try to put different powers into the government's hands, rather than one adding more than the other.  Between the two we have all the ingredients for a police state.  Unwarranted spying and torture are both used by Cerberus btw.  Funny how no matter who reads 1984 they only get the messages they wanted to hear.

Conservative advocations for control are centered around Religion.

In "1984" religion has been replaced by Big Brother, the Government.

Thus, "1984" fits as a warning against extreme contemporary liberalism far more ably.

[LeoInterVir]

I think a moderator needs to come in here and clean up shop. I don't mind a political discussion, just in a political forum and not in a forum about a game. Back on topic people...

Modifié par LeoInterVir, 10 mars 2010 - 07:23 .

[ObserverStatus]

Alexandus wrote...

bobobo878 wrote...

Alexandus wrote...


Quite. Liberals are the type to put their government in utter and complete power. Which doesn't work out very well, if you've read 1984 by any chance, or heard anything about the Soviet Union.

Funny, 1984 also had lots of references to violations of privacy rights and torture, both conservative policies.
Liberals and Conservatives simply try to put different powers into the government's hands, rather than one adding more than the other.  Between the two we have all the ingredients for a police state.  Unwarranted spying and torture are both used by Cerberus btw.  Funny how no matter who reads 1984 they only get the messages they wanted to hear.

Conservative advocations for control are centered around Religion.

In "1984" religion has been replaced by Big Brother, the Government.

Thus, "1984" fits as a warning against extreme contemporary liberalism far more ably.

Conservative advocations for control are centered around defense,

In "1984" Oceania is in a nonstop state of war,  television sets are rigged to spy on people, and the main character is dragged off to a prison where he is tortured mercilessly.

Thus "1984" fits a warning against the police state far more ably.

Shepard is likely jealous that he is no longer Cerberus's "most valuable asset" now that TIM posesses the Illusive base. (I'm trying to steer the thread back to ME2)

[Alexandus]

LeoInterVir wrote...

I think a moderator needs to come in here and clean up shop. I don't mind a political discussion, just in a political forum and not in a forum about a game. Back on topic people...

*shrugs* It's about a game made by people living in the world we live in. Parallels are bound to pop up, even in fiction like Mass Effect. It's a natural extention of the Paragon/Renegade debate to begin bringing in Left/Right issues from our world.

But you have a point. Politics have a tendancy of becoming very heated and intense, without putting gloves on it such as the Paragon/Renegade labels.

Bobo wrote...

Conservative advocations for control are centered around defense,

In "1984" Oceania is in a nonstop state of war,  television sets are rigged to spy on people, and the main character is dragged off to a prison where he is tortured mercilessly.

Thus "1984" fits a warning against the police state far more ably.

Shepard is likely jealous that he is no longer Cerberus's "most valuable asset" now that TIM posesses the Illusive base. (I'm trying to steer the thread back to ME2)

I appreciate the parallel structure attempted there, but the logical connection is a tad off.

In "1984" there is a constant state of war, but it is a war with no significant changes between the powers of the warring countries. As far as we know from the novel, there are no terrorist attacks, and Oceania is in no real danger of being invaded.

Is spying on people and torture exclusive to conservatives? I recall hearing tell of a website set up by our dear president where people opposing national healthcare would be reported, to be compiled in a list.

Modifié par Alexandus, 10 mars 2010 - 07:27 .

[LeoInterVir]

I already gave my opinion on the topic but I'll add more to it...



I remember reading or hearing something in the game about Cerberus being under new leadership.

I am not sure when the new leadership (TIM) took over, so probably TIM did not commit those actions.

If TIM did not commit those actions in the past then you can't hold them against him or the "new" Cerberus.



Anyhow, I support Cerberus up till the point of the Reaper threat being over.

I might support them further if they have surely found a new way and won't head back to their old ways.

If they do fall back to their old ways then I guess TIM and Cerberus will have to be taken out of the picture.



I played Paragon all the way through and I still gave him his base, since its better to experiment and improve on advanced technology when its real and working than when its in a database...



TIM is the lesser evil and you do have someone loyal to you that knows where his main base is...

[ObserverStatus]

I'm supporting Cerberus until the reapers go down. Afterwords maybe the Rachni will hide me from them. As I said, TIM is going to take over Arcturus Mengsk style.

[Wildecker]

I wish I could put more trust into The Man and his agenda "Cerberus exists to watch over mankind and protect it". But there's also the problem adressed by Miranda in one of our conversations: Cerberus is stuck with a (well-earned) bad reputation for past deeds that attracts more of the people you basically don't want to see gaining more power while those who could reshape Cerberus give it a wide berth. The logs at Jack's facility point out that The Man didn't know every little thing about the "training program" and the operators guessed he wouldn't ask too many questions if the result was as outstanding as they hoped.

It's a darn hard piece of work to earn respect and trust from other races the Paragon way, and a lot faster to show them your Renegade big stick and say "You better do what I tell you to do. Or else!"

However, the Big Stick approach requires that you constantly keep this sort of technological edge, or your unwilling allies will turn around and go for your throat to be rid of you for good. That's exactly why I can't leave the Collector Base for Cerberus - it's the biggest stick around that we know of, and all other races in the galaxy would rather team up to wipe humans out while they still can than consider their children left with the choice to be slaves of the Reapers or slaves of the Alliance.



In a way, all those loyalty missions and sidequests are a public relations campaign for improving the Cerberus reputation ...

[ObserverStatus]

Or, you can just club them with the big stick and be done with it.

[netwitbrian]

I just didn't trust TIM...plus Miranda left him at the end and she knows him better than anyone, but we''ll see how that plays out in ME3.

[AntiChri5]

The Alliance and council will not work with Shepard because Cerberus deliberatley and intentionally destroyed Shepards credibilty. Putting their own interests before galactic security.

[Wildecker]

Cerberus Commando wrote...

Cerberus can be your Ally or your greatest enemy. And right now it looks like you paragons need more allies than enemeies. The Reapers are coming. And Cerberus is the only Organization that is doing something about it! Not the Alliance! Not the council!

Cerberus' reputation is its own worst enemy. Once you begin reasoning that it's acceptable to sacrifice a few hundred thousand people here and there (preferably those who won't be missed anyway) "for the greater good" you may just as well start grinding people for your own Reaper.

Other organisations may be planning to do something about it, but they sure as hell won't discuss their plans with Cerberus staff. And honestly: do you think Cerberus would have lifted a finger if, for example, Batarians had started to vanish by the millions?

[Asheer_Khan]

Somehow i doubt that Mr Walters let us have so much freedom of choice in ME 3 but if after C-base and gathering all evidence about reapers Council will still jump whit "Ah yes..." style of deny i will start to seek direct contact whit Asari,Turian and Salarian Goverments and present them evidence.



However i STILL hope that this whole Council behavior is based on fact that Shepard work WHIT Cerberus because like somebody posted here right now Shepard's credibility thanks to Timmy is shattered and will take time to repair such...



*Sigh...* Seriously i wish that Bioware put SW ToR on hold and bring back ME 1 team to finish ME 3 because right now i have rather grim fellings in what way ME 3 will go thanks to Mr Walters...

[Barquiel]

Cerberus Commando wrote...

You have a good point. But You and I both know that Cerberus isn't the enemy. The Reapers are. Who will stop them if not Cerberus? The council? The Alliance?

Why not?

The council and the alliance have large fleets (maybe we'll get rachni and geth as well), Cerberus not.

[Wildecker]

Cerberus Commando wrote...

You have a good point. But You and I both know that Cerberus isn't the enemy. The Reapers are. Who will stop them if not Cerberus? The council? The Alliance?

If they can be stopped at all, no single power in the galaxy will be tough and smart enough to get the job done on its own. It will require a joint effort, an alliance the like of which this galaxy has not seen - yet. Quarian combat hackers teaming up with Geth who have experience with Reaper hardware/software, Krogan and even Rachni suicide boarding parties, Asari coordinating their biotic tricks in large numbers ... and of cause Turians AND humans providing those huge Reapers with plenty of targets to shoot at while the others work their magic.

Cerberus has contributed to that effort by bringing back the man (or woman) who just might be able to forge that alliance.

[FlintlockJazz]

Cerberus Commando wrote...

You have a good point. But You and I both know that Cerberus isn't the enemy. The Reapers are. Who will stop them if not Cerberus? The council? The Alliance?

Ah yes, "Reapers", these giant alien beings that Cerberus is using to scare Shepard into helping them.  An enemy of my enemy is not my friend, just something I can use to distract them both while I secure victory over both.

[nikki191]

Cerberus has a self appointed mission to protect and and expand humanities interests which is all well and good except they have no oversight, their cells have a habit of doing unspeakable things, and they are very much the end justifies the means especially if the result is really outstanding.



yes shepard saves the galaxy, but also look at it for a minute, shepard was given total free reign to achieve that goal... again no oversight in a cerberus operation.



frankly i think kelly is specifically planted to be the public "see cerberus isnt as bad as everyone thinks and im interested in you shepard, flirt flirt" face of cerberus and get the character more willing to work with the organisation due to the romantic link

[Bigdoser]

Shandepared wrote...

Wildecker wrote...


Cerberus' reputation is its own worst enemy. Once you begin reasoning that it's acceptable to sacrifice a few hundred thousand people here and there (preferably those who won't be missed anyway) "for the greater good" you may just as well start grinding people for your own Reaper.

Those not willing to make sacrifices will be destroyed by those who are. Those who beat their swords into plows will be killed by those who do not.

eer no i bet  your tune would be different if your family/friends where inculded in the scarifices. Also if you where a sacrifice to achieve a end would you go along an sacrifice yourself?

Modifié par Bigdoser, 10 mars 2010 - 02:27 .

[Lord Abrasion]

nikki191 wrote...

Cerberus has a self appointed mission to protect and and expand humanities interests which is all well and good except they have no oversight, their cells have a habit of doing unspeakable things, and they are very much the end justifies the means especially if the result is really outstanding.

yes shepard saves the galaxy, but also look at it for a minute, shepard was given total free reign to achieve that goal... again no oversight in a cerberus operation.

frankly i think kelly is specifically planted to be the public "see cerberus isnt as bad as everyone thinks and im interested in you shepard, flirt flirt" face of cerberus and get the character more willing to work with the organisation due to the romantic link

I think similar reasoning went behind the selection of the entire crew. I doubt any of the many xenophobes that make up the organization were chosen to be part of the Normandy crew.

[Bigdoser]

Lord Abrasion wrote...

nikki191 wrote...

Cerberus has a self appointed mission to protect and and expand humanities interests which is all well and good except they have no oversight, their cells have a habit of doing unspeakable things, and they are very much the end justifies the means especially if the result is really outstanding.

yes shepard saves the galaxy, but also look at it for a minute, shepard was given total free reign to achieve that goal... again no oversight in a cerberus operation.

frankly i think kelly is specifically planted to be the public "see cerberus isnt as bad as everyone thinks and im interested in you shepard, flirt flirt" face of cerberus and get the character more willing to work with the organisation due to the romantic link

I think similar reasoning went behind the selection of the entire crew. I doubt any of the many xenophobes that make up the organization were chosen to be part of the Normandy crew.

Thats what TIM is trying to do make an enemy a friend and it seems some people have fallen for it.

[Wildecker]

Shandepared wrote...

Wildecker wrote...


Cerberus' reputation is its own worst enemy. Once you begin reasoning that it's acceptable to sacrifice a few hundred thousand people here and there (preferably those who won't be missed anyway) "for the greater good" you may just as well start grinding people for your own Reaper.

Those not willing to make sacrifices will be destroyed by those who are. Those who beat their swords into plows will be killed by those who do not.

Well I guess once your own people discover that you couldn't care less if they live or die as long as there are enough stored away in a safe location to start a breeding program after your final victory, you'll discover that a guy with a sword can be killed by superior numbers of angry farmers with plows and scythes.

There's a quote from the Patton movie "I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his
country. He won it by making the other poor, dumb bastard die for his country."

So much for sacrificing your own. Stalingrad was no shining example of the willingness to sacrifice - it was a demonstration of disastrous leadership and helped a lot to crush German fighting spirit. The charge of the Light Brigade at Balaclava triggered poetry but achieved absolutely nothing on the battlefield.

Modifié par Wildecker, 10 mars 2010 - 03:37 .

[jklinders]

Cerberus has demonstrated utter incompetence time and time again. I would not trust them with a pack of wet matches, let alone the galaxy's future.

[Vaenier]

Shepard is dead without Cerberus. They gave me a second chance, the least I can do is give them a second chance.