134 réponses à ce sujet

[Crazy_Cat_Lady]

AnnaBananaBamBamBoo wrote...

Alistair was written as a Templar which is of the same mold as a palladin. Part of the draw to him by women is the fact that he is untouchable, and women want that challenge from a celibate warrior. I find Templars (and palladins for that matter) annoying yet necessary. I take Sten over Alistair any day.

Really?  Sten might be the most worthless character in the game.  Only one specialization and his skills are a carbon copy of Oghren's.  I never use him at all.  While Alistair is made as the perfect tank.  Sten won't even talk to you most of the time.  Alistair is great as the comic relief/sidekick role.

[AnnaBananaBamBamBoo]

Bratt1204 wrote...

Alistair must be one the kindest, most honorable and genuine (not to mention terribly handsome) characters I have even come across in an RPG. Yes, he can be corny at times but that is how he is written and it is extremely charming. It seems as if the people that dislike him so, must be either be very insecure and feel threatened by his virtuous nature or are simply villainous individuals. I suspect there also seems to be hint of jealousy present (IMO).

  
 
LOL, funny how you can break things down to either-or, however life is not black and white and is full of billions of colours. Alistair's a goody-two-shoes just like all templars and palladins, just because I don't like him doesn't mean I'm jealous or villainous.  Once you know WHAT he is, he becomes very predictable and mundane to a man and why would I be jealous of him? I wouldn't want anything to do with the women that are attracted to him anyway; if they like the type of guy, they definately wouldn't like my type and I'm definately fine with that (please stay away from me ).   
 
There, that's JUST one of the billions of colours between black and white.  THAT'S a clue there, black and white thinking is definately a part of a palladin's make-up, and therefore will attract those of the opposite sex that think likewise (such as yourself).  He's out of my party forever unless absolutely needed in story-binding sequences such as the healing of Arl of @$^@%^ when he came out of nowhere when I had him out of the party. What was THAT about??? I really hope he doesn't show up in the expansion. [edit] he's a necessary "evil"  Bring him back so I can do him in!

Modifié par AnnaBananaBamBamBoo, 09 mars 2010 - 04:53 .

[AnnaBananaBamBamBoo]

Crazy_Cat_Lady wrote...

AnnaBananaBamBamBoo wrote...

Alistair was written as a Templar which is of the same mold as a palladin. Part of the draw to him by women is the fact that he is untouchable, and women want that challenge from a celibate warrior. I find Templars (and palladins for that matter) annoying yet necessary. I take Sten over Alistair any day.

Really?  Sten might be the most worthless character in the game.  Only one specialization and his skills are a carbon copy of Oghren's.  I never use him at all.  While Alistair is made as the perfect tank.  Sten won't even talk to you most of the time.  Alistair is great as the comic relief/sidekick role.

  
 
That's the way I want a tank, don't talk to me just do what you're told. Sten is a far better tank than Alistair. The only person I want talking in my party is Oghren in the Trenches (he has some good warnings), Morrigan (now she's worth talking to), Zevran, Leliana, Vliekster my dog, and the list goes on.  OH, everybody BUT Alistair

Modifié par AnnaBananaBamBamBoo, 09 mars 2010 - 04:20 .

[Eurypterid]

One thing you have to admit: for Alistair to get such intense reactions from gamers (both pro and con), he's well written.

[AnnaBananaBamBamBoo]

Eurypterid wrote...

One thing you have to admit: for Alistair to get such intense reactions from gamers (both pro and con), he's well written.

  
 
So true, I admit that!  Every paladin-type in RPGs that Bioware has written do get my goad and they do write them to character very well. That's what role-playing is about, love it!

Modifié par AnnaBananaBamBamBoo, 09 mars 2010 - 04:33 .

[Bratt1204]

Eurypterid wrote...

One thing you have to admit: for Alistair to get such intense reactions from gamers (both pro and con), he's well written.

Precisely,  that's why we want him to be in expansions and sequels as a usable character and not a robot-like NPC.

[AnnaBananaBamBamBoo]

I love hearing Sten and Morrigan go at it, I think Morrigan's definately attracted to him because she keeps bringing it up and he keeps fending her off. Now when it comes to Alistair and Morrigan talking, she definately does not like him (as I) and tells him off quite eloquently. That's great within the game when a character says exactly what you're thinking. Another reason I like Morrigan is because she so atypical of most women who prefer Alistair types (boring). Morrigan's very oblique; THAT intrigues me.

[Bratt1204]

AnnaBananaBamBamBoo wrote...

I love hearing Sten and Morrigan go at it, I think Morrigan's definately attracted to him because she keeps bringing it up and he keeps fending her off. Now when it comes to Alistair and Morrigan talking, she definately does not like him (as I) and tells him off quite eloquently. That's great within the game when a character says exactly what you're thinking. Another reason I like Morrigan is because she so atypical of most women who prefer Alistair types (boring). Morrigan's very oblique; THAT intrigues me.

My own personality is very similar to Morrigan's and I find Alistair irresistible. Alistair is a much deeper and genuine character than he appears to be. I actually believe Morrigan finds Alistair irresistible as well, she is always at him because she is attracted to him. He is the type of innocent you want to corrupt just a little; this is demonstrated when he agrees to the Dark Ritual if he cares enough for your female PC. Opposites attract.

[krylo]

You know, Alistair's really not a 'paladin' type. If you think that you haven't paid much attention to him at all.

He doesn't like the church/the chantry. He's a trouble maker (screaming to break the silence and laughing at the chantry priest's face, etc.). He's not one of the two that leap down your throat when you make rather... unholy choices. He doesn't seek to punish evil and save the righteous. He's not assured of his own righteousness. He's not particularly religious. The only thing he has in common with paladins is that he knows some skills that have a paladin-esque theme.

Samara from ME2--There's a paladin for you. Bastila Shan of Kotor--Still more paladin than Alistair. If there were a 'paladin' character in DA it would be Wynne, by personality at least--abilities as well if you make her an arcane warrior.

Alistair may be more on the 'white' side of Grey Warden, but he's so far from the 'holy crusader' character archetype that I'm just not seeing where you're coming from on the 'I hate all paladin characters so I hate Alistair' thing, AnnaBananaBamBamBoo.

Modifié par krylo, 09 mars 2010 - 05:06 .

[errant_knight]

krylo wrote...

You know, Alistair's really not a 'paladin' type. If you think that you haven't paid much attention to him at all.

He doesn't like the church/the chantry. He's a trouble maker (screaming to break the silence and laughing at the chantry priest's face, etc.). He's not one of the two that leap down your throat when you make rather... unholy choices. He doesn't seek to punish evil and save the righteous. He's not assured of his own righteousness. He's not particularly religious. The only thing he has in common with paladins is that he knows some skills that have a paladin-esque theme.

Samara from ME2--There's a paladin for you. Bastila Shan of Kotor--Still more paladin than Alistair. If there were a 'paladin' character in DA it would be Wynne, by personality at least--abilities as well if you make her an arcane warrior.

Alistair may be more on the 'white' side of Grey Warden, but he's so far from the 'holy crusader' character archetype that I'm just not seeing where you're coming from on the 'I hate all paladin characters so I hate Alistair' thing, AnnaBananaBamBamBoo.

Agreed, and Wynne has enough flaws not to fit the archetype, either, although she acknowledges them. There really aren't any Paladins in this game. While Alistair wants to do good, and believes in duty/honor, he's also driven by a single-minded need for revenge, which isn't Paladinesque, and is willing to go along with things that are definitely on the grey scale in terms of the good of Fereldan for friendship and personal happiness.

[The_Abyss]

All we need is a black man in shining silver armour twirling hammers over his head with white squiggly circles around his feet and this game will have paladins.

Sidenote: I don't really find him whiny, to be honest. I'm not sure why people think it so.

Modifié par The_Abyss, 09 mars 2010 - 05:57 .

[Janni-in-VA]

Alistair is funny, smart, not preachy, boyishly charming and sweet. He has courage, although he has to work on believing in himself. He understands duty and honor, although his own actions may sometimes fall short. He's real. I don't know many men who'd be willing to say that they've never had sex before and want it to be right and for the right reasons. And when he looked at my PC and said, "Maker's breath, you're beautiful!", I just melted into a little puddle. (Bless you, Steve Valentine!) Frankly, that boy could eat crackers in my bed anytime. 

Modifié par Janni-in-VA, 09 mars 2010 - 05:57 .

[Bratt1204]

Janni-in-VA wrote...

Alistair is funny, smart, not preachy, boyishly charming and sweet. He has courage, although he has to work on believing in himself. He understands duty and honor, although his own actions may sometimes fall short. He's real. I don't know many men who'd be willing to say that they've never had sex before and want it to be right and for the right reasons. And when he looked at my PC and said, "Maker's breath, you're beautiful!", I just melted into a little puddle. (Bless you, Steve Valentine!) Frankly, that boy could eat crackers in my bed anytime. 

Yes. <3

[Maria13]

And I shall join those who say that he reminds them of their husbands... Crackers and cheese as far as I'm concerned.

[CalJones]

As a veteran female gamer, I have to say Alistair has his charm but, for me, that charm is short-lived. His voice acting is excellent, I like his humour, and he does have a certain puppy-dog appeal, but it's not enough to turn me gooey. I find his need for vengeance utterly repellant, particularly when it's born out of his survivor's guilt.



As soon as he wakes up up Flemeth's, he wants to blame everything on Loghain, despite the fact he himself admits the he and the Warden missed the signal to light the beacon, and despite the fact Loghain tells Cailan not to fight on the front lines. All this based on an eye-witness account from a witch Alistair neither trusts nor likes...while Loghain himself is a war hero of renown.(Loghain's actions only really become questionable once you get to Lothering and find out he's declared the Wardens as traitors - but even that isn't evidence that he has deliberately betrayed the king. However, Alistair jumps to conclusions before you even get that far).



I get that he is grieving over Duncan, but some of the origins (the Human Noble in particular) are far more traumatic and he is so wrapped up in self-pity that he barely acknowledges that someone else might be suffering.



Alistair - well, I like him more than Anomen, but that's about it. I need a man, not a boy.

[SurelyForth]

CalJones wrote...

As a veteran female gamer, I have to say Alistair has his charm but, for me, that charm is short-lived. His voice acting is excellent, I like his humour, and he does have a certain puppy-dog appeal, but it's not enough to turn me gooey. I find his need for vengeance utterly repellant, particularly when it's born out of his survivor's guilt.

As soon as he wakes up up Flemeth's, he wants to blame everything on Loghain, despite the fact he himself admits the he and the Warden missed the signal to light the beacon, and despite the fact Loghain tells Cailan not to fight on the front lines. All this based on an eye-witness account from a witch Alistair neither trusts nor likes...while Loghain himself is a war hero of renown.(Loghain's actions only really become questionable once you get to Lothering and find out he's declared the Wardens as traitors - but even that isn't evidence that he has deliberately betrayed the king. However, Alistair jumps to conclusions before you even get that far).

He doesn't know that Loghain tried to keep Cailan off of the front lines. All he knows is that the beacon was lit and then Loghain left. And then accused the Wardens of killing Cailan. And then sent assassins after him and his friends. And was responsible for poisoning his (other) father figure. I think he has every reason to hate Loghain and his wrath could be much greater and much more debilitating- at least he carries on with the task at hand and settles his issues in an appropriate venue rather than doing something illegal or underhanded (like hiring assassins or poisoning someone via blood mage).

I have been white knighting Alistair all over the place today, but I will admit that there are things about his character that irk me (and I really hate the Alistair you can get if you spare Loghain and marry him to Anora, even though I am keenly aware of how badly betrayed he feels by the PC) but I think he's a victim of his role in the plot taking over consistent characterization. The first time I played I thought he was an adorable goofball, but way too immature. Now that I've played so much, I know that you can end up with a very well-balanced adult at the end of the game, one who stops underestimating himself (even though he continues to let others underestimate him). I love that Alistair.

Modifié par SurelyForth, 09 mars 2010 - 08:03 .

[AnniLau]

The_Abyss wrote...

The only thing about alistar that annoys me is that
*Spoiler*





he won't ever accept logain.

I know it's a game and it was written the way it was for a reason, but I do wish Riordan had that little talk with us while we were all still loitering around the Arl's Denerim estate. That might have been enough to convince Alistair that recruiting Loghain was a necessary evil.

[Bratt1204]

SurelyForth wrote...

CalJones wrote...

As a veteran female gamer, I have to say Alistair has his charm but, for me, that charm is short-lived. His voice acting is excellent, I like his humour, and he does have a certain puppy-dog appeal, but it's not enough to turn me gooey. I find his need for vengeance utterly repellant, particularly when it's born out of his survivor's guilt.

As soon as he wakes up up Flemeth's, he wants to blame everything on Loghain, despite the fact he himself admits the he and the Warden missed the signal to light the beacon, and despite the fact Loghain tells Cailan not to fight on the front lines. All this based on an eye-witness account from a witch Alistair neither trusts nor likes...while Loghain himself is a war hero of renown.(Loghain's actions only really become questionable once you get to Lothering and find out he's declared the Wardens as traitors - but even that isn't evidence that he has deliberately betrayed the king. However, Alistair jumps to conclusions before you even get that far).

He doesn't know that Loghain tried to keep Cailan off of the front lines. All he knows is that the beacon was lit and then Loghain left. And then accused the Wardens of killing Cailan. And then sent assassins after him and his friends. And was responsible for poisoning his (other) father figure. I think he has every reason to hate Loghain and his wrath could be much greater and much more debilitating- at least he carries on with the task at hand and settles his issues in an appropriate venue rather than doing something illegal or underhanded (like hiring assassins or poisoning someone via blood mage).

I have been white knighting Alistair all over the place today, but I will admit that there are things about his character that irk me (and I really hate the Alistair you can get if you spare Loghain and marry him to Anora, even though I am keenly aware of how badly betrayed he feels by the PC) but I think he's a victim of his role in the plot taking over consistent characterization. The first time I played I thought he was an adorable goofball, but way too immature. Now that I've played so much, I know that you can end up with a very well-balanced adult at the end of the game, one who stops underestimating himself (even though he continues to let others underestimate him). I love that Alistair.

Yes.

[Gilsa]

adapt_king wrote...

But he's such a loser! Shoves his responsibility to the protagonist, a newly-deemed grey warden, instead of taking charge himself. That's an act of cowardice. Plain and simple.

Look at it from a game design perspective. There needs to be a reason for the player to be making all the decisions in the game. So they provided a character designed to go along with your choices. Same deal for Sten. If you hadn't saved his life, he wouldn't be compelled to listen to a rookie either. If you were the writer, how would you allow for a senior ranking Grey Warden to let the player make the decisions in the game?

[Addai]

Right, if Alistair were trying to take charge all the time, people would be complaining just as they do when he refuses to agree to spare Loghain. Then it would be "Alistair is such a demanding ******" etc. ad nauseum.

@Gilsa: You make the prettiest dwarves.

Modifié par Addai67, 09 mars 2010 - 09:33 .

[CalJones]

SurelyForth wrote...
He doesn't know that Loghain tried to keep Cailan off of the front lines. All he knows is that the beacon was lit and then Loghain left. And then accused the Wardens of killing Cailan. And then sent assassins after him and his friends. And was responsible for poisoning his (other) father figure. I think he has every reason to hate Loghain and his wrath could be much greater and much more debilitating- at least he carries on with the task at hand and settles his issues in an appropriate venue rather than doing something illegal or underhanded (like hiring assassins or poisoning someone via blood mage).

I'm talking about before Lothering, when you're at Flemeth's. At that point you don't know about the Wardens being declared traitors, the assassins (well, one assassin - Zevran - the guys you meet in Lothering are there to arrest the Warden, not kill him/her) and the poisoning. I'm not saying those aren't bad things, but at that point in the game, you're not aware of them.

And the Warden saw Loghain trying to keep Cailan off the front lines. It's not so much Alistair's dialogue that gets me miffed at this point (irritating though it is) but the fact you can't actually say "hey, wait a minute, I was there when he told Cailan to stay back," nor can you question why he immediately jumps to the conclusion that Fereldan's most renowned war hero is a traitor. You can brush over the statement or agree with it. And that's just stupid.

SurelyForth wrote...
I have been white knighting Alistair all over the place today, but I will admit that there are things about his character that irk me (and I really hate the Alistair you can get if you spare Loghain and marry him to Anora, even though I am keenly aware of how badly betrayed he feels by the PC) but I think he's a victim of his role in the plot taking over consistent characterization. The first time I played I thought he was an adorable goofball, but way too immature. Now that I've played so much, I know that you can end up with a very well-balanced adult at the end of the game, one who stops underestimating himself (even though he continues to let others underestimate him). I love that Alistair.

I've only really had annoying endings with Alistair. I didn't harden him in my first playthrough - I wasn't aware that you could, and just went with the sympathetic approach when he visited Goldanna. My own character executed Loghain and I had Alistair marry Anora. It ended fine, but he was still a bit of a wimp.

The execution cut scene bothered me so much I recruited Loghain in most of my other playthroughs so only saw Alistair's petulant side (for all that he might feel betrayed by you, he acts like a complete ass, turning his back on the Wardens completely).
 
I did want to take Alistair through one more complete playthrough in a romance but that one backfired pretty spectacularly too. My plan was to have Alistair kill Loghain himself (so I didn't have to), then my character would back Anora so that Alistair and she could remain Wardens together. Well, that didn't work - he killed Loghain then declared himself king, after which he dumped my girl in front of the entire party, and then told her it was her idea to make him king. Er, no it wasn't, ****-head. I was actually glad when he insisted on sacrificing himself. I know I should have felt moved and sad, but I was so annoyed with him I thought good riddance. I don't think I've really forgiven him for that.

I do wish it was possible to recruit Loghain as a non-Warden (just as a general/soldier) and keep Alistair as a Warden, but no. Damn you, game mechanics.

[Gill Kaiser]

It'd help if the OP actually elaborated on the reason for his dislike...

[krylo]

CalJones wrote...

I'm talking about before Lothering, when you're at Flemeth's. At that point you don't know about the Wardens being declared traitors, the assassins (well, one assassin - Zevran - the guys you meet in Lothering are there to arrest the Warden, not kill him/her) and the poisoning. I'm not saying those aren't bad things, but at that point in the game, you're not aware of them.

And the Warden saw Loghain trying to keep Cailan off the front lines. It's not so much Alistair's dialogue that gets me miffed at this point (irritating though it is) but the fact you can't actually say "hey, wait a minute, I was there when he told Cailan to stay back," nor can you question why he immediately jumps to the conclusion that Fereldan's most renowned war hero is a traitor. You can brush over the statement or agree with it. And that's just stupid.

On the other hand he's more hurt and confused at that point.

He doesn't say "LOGHAIN MUST DIIIIE!!!"

Instead it's, "Why would Loghain do this?"

Flemeth--whom may have had a better view of the battle with her shapeshifting and flight--is the one that drives home the idea that Loghain actually betrayed the king with her answer about darkness and mens hearts.

It's not until the very end when we DO know that Loghain left Duncan--Father Figure A--to die (which may or may not have been justified, don't really want to make this a Loghain thread, we have like five of those), poisoned Father Figure B, sent assassins after the Grey Wardens, denied the Orlesian Grey Wardens at the border of Ferelden, Declared the Wardens Traitors, Sold the Elves to Slavery etc. etc. that he shows any real anger/rage toward Loghain instead of just acting hurt about the whole ordeal.

I've only really had annoying endings with Alistair. I didn't harden him in my first playthrough - I wasn't aware that you could, and just went with the sympathetic approach when he visited Goldanna. My own character executed Loghain and I had Alistair marry Anora. It ended fine, but he was still a bit of a wimp.

The execution cut scene bothered me so much I recruited Loghain in most of my other playthroughs so only saw Alistair's petulant side (for all that he might feel betrayed by you, he acts like a complete ass, turning his back on the Wardens completely).
 
I did want to take Alistair through one more complete playthrough in a romance but that one backfired pretty spectacularly too. My plan was to have Alistair kill Loghain himself (so I didn't have to), then my character would back Anora so that Alistair and she could remain Wardens together. Well, that didn't work - he killed Loghain then declared himself king, after which he dumped my girl in front of the entire party, and then told her it was her idea to make him king. Er, no it wasn't, ****-head. I was actually glad when he insisted on sacrificing himself. I know I should have felt moved and sad, but I was so annoyed with him I thought good riddance. I don't think I've really forgiven him for that.

I do wish it was possible to recruit Loghain as a non-Warden (just as a general/soldier) and keep Alistair as a Warden, but no. Damn you, game mechanics.

You know, reading all this I can't help but think there's an extremely heavy "I think Loghain is attractive and Alistair isn't" bias going on.  You're willing to forgive everything that Loghain does throughout the game in seconds, but Alistair is beyond forgiveness, or even understanding, for a couple of minutes of Petulence, and/or finally manning up and taking charge--like a nominee to be king SHOULD do?

[Bratt1204]

krylo wrote...

CalJones wrote...

I'm talking about before Lothering, when you're at Flemeth's. At that point you don't know about the Wardens being declared traitors, the assassins (well, one assassin - Zevran - the guys you meet in Lothering are there to arrest the Warden, not kill him/her) and the poisoning. I'm not saying those aren't bad things, but at that point in the game, you're not aware of them.

And the Warden saw Loghain trying to keep Cailan off the front lines. It's not so much Alistair's dialogue that gets me miffed at this point (irritating though it is) but the fact you can't actually say "hey, wait a minute, I was there when he told Cailan to stay back," nor can you question why he immediately jumps to the conclusion that Fereldan's most renowned war hero is a traitor. You can brush over the statement or agree with it. And that's just stupid.

On the other hand he's more hurt and confused at that point.

He doesn't say "LOGHAIN MUST DIIIIE!!!"

Instead it's, "Why would Loghain do this?"

Flemeth--whom may have had a better view of the battle with her shapeshifting and flight--is the one that drives home the idea that Loghain actually betrayed the king with her answer about darkness and mens hearts.

It's not until the very end when we DO know that Loghain left Duncan--Father Figure A--to die (which may or may not have been justified, don't really want to make this a Loghain thread, we have like five of those), poisoned Father Figure B, sent assassins after the Grey Wardens, denied the Orlesian Grey Wardens at the border of Ferelden, Declared the Wardens Traitors, Sold the Elves to Slavery etc. etc. that he shows any real anger/rage toward Loghain instead of just acting hurt about the whole ordeal.

I've only really had annoying endings with Alistair. I didn't harden him in my first playthrough - I wasn't aware that you could, and just went with the sympathetic approach when he visited Goldanna. My own character executed Loghain and I had Alistair marry Anora. It ended fine, but he was still a bit of a wimp.

The execution cut scene bothered me so much I recruited Loghain in most of my other playthroughs so only saw Alistair's petulant side (for all that he might feel betrayed by you, he acts like a complete ass, turning his back on the Wardens completely).
 
I did want to take Alistair through one more complete playthrough in a romance but that one backfired pretty spectacularly too. My plan was to have Alistair kill Loghain himself (so I didn't have to), then my character would back Anora so that Alistair and she could remain Wardens together. Well, that didn't work - he killed Loghain then declared himself king, after which he dumped my girl in front of the entire party, and then told her it was her idea to make him king. Er, no it wasn't, ****-head. I was actually glad when he insisted on sacrificing himself. I know I should have felt moved and sad, but I was so annoyed with him I thought good riddance. I don't think I've really forgiven him for that.

I do wish it was possible to recruit Loghain as a non-Warden (just as a general/soldier) and keep Alistair as a Warden, but no. Damn you, game mechanics.

You know, reading all this I can't help but think there's an extremely heavy "I think Loghain is attractive and Alistair isn't" bias going on.  You're willing to forgive everything that Loghain does throughout the game in seconds, but Alistair is beyond forgiveness, or even understanding, for a couple of minutes of Petulence, and/or finally manning up and taking charge--like a nominee to be king SHOULD do?

So true. Alistair is a faithful and loyal companion from the very beginning and what is Loghain to my PC? Nothing. He hunted-down and tortured the Grey Wardens not to mention what he did to Cailan, Arl Eamon and the part he played in destroying the Couslands. I could not kill that bastard quickly enough. He was a brave and honorable General of Ferelden at one time in the past, now he is only a self motivated fiend completely blinded by his own desire for power.  

[Wolfaura]

Iam on of the so called Alistair fan girls. I think he's sweet, adorable and charming. He is a very well written character. I feel sorry for him and want to do whatever I can to help him.

Though I do think he's unreasonable and blinded by revenge for Loghain, I would've let him live as I can see his intentions aren't evil and for what he thinks the best for his beloved country. And he would do anything for Ferelden which does make him a bit too ruthless as he does go to extremes.

But I always end up killing Loghain to keep Alistair happy.



Though in one playthrough I allowed Alistair to be executed and Loghain get conscripted. That made me feel so bad and guilty, damn these well written characters they really affect you emotionally.