134 réponses à ce sujet

[ejoslin]

SurelyForth wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Alistair only makes himself king (if he kills Loghain) without you having the choice if he isn't in love with your PC, so either he wasn't at 'love' to begin with, or something happened before landsmeet to end the relationship. Well, that's if you're playing a human noble female. If you aren't, there's no option for you to suggest marrying Alistair if he's hardened and you aren't human. He wants to be king, and he makes it so.The option is there if he's unhardened, but he won't go for it. However, you can keep from being dumped in the conversation afterwards even if you're a HNF, something I only found out recently. Some of the dialogue choices leading to no breakup have big disapproval, some don't, so you may have to replay it a few times.

If you have Alistair execute Loghain, OR have him duel Loghain (same result), the only times that Alistair will NOT just accept being king is if he's in love with a HNF OR if it's arranged for him to marry Anora.  Otherwise, he just accepts.  He still blames the warden for making him king, however.

He doesn't make himself king if he's not hardened.  If he is hardened, he doesn't blame the Warden for making him king, he just points it out, whether you did or not. He does lay the blame on you if he's not hardened (which he shouldn't do if he demands to be king to see Loghain brought to justice).

No, you're right. I am speaking of a hardened Alistair.  Unhardened totally doesn't want to be king.

[errant_knight]

ejoslin wrote...

SurelyForth wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Alistair only makes himself king (if he kills Loghain) without you having the choice if he isn't in love with your PC, so either he wasn't at 'love' to begin with, or something happened before landsmeet to end the relationship. Well, that's if you're playing a human noble female. If you aren't, there's no option for you to suggest marrying Alistair if he's hardened and you aren't human. He wants to be king, and he makes it so.The option is there if he's unhardened, but he won't go for it. However, you can keep from being dumped in the conversation afterwards even if you're a HNF, something I only found out recently. Some of the dialogue choices leading to no breakup have big disapproval, some don't, so you may have to replay it a few times.

If you have Alistair execute Loghain, OR have him duel Loghain (same result), the only times that Alistair will NOT just accept being king is if he's in love with a HNF OR if it's arranged for him to marry Anora.  Otherwise, he just accepts.  He still blames the warden for making him king, however.

He doesn't make himself king if he's not hardened.  If he is hardened, he doesn't blame the Warden for making him king, he just points it out, whether you did or not. He does lay the blame on you if he's not hardened (which he shouldn't do if he demands to be king to see Loghain brought to justice).

No, you're right. I am speaking of a hardened Alistair.  Unhardened totally doesn't want to be king.

I was responding to someone who was speaking about having hardened Alistair, so that was a given.

[Addai]

CalJones wrote...
My HNM has married Anora - I liked that ending too - but Alistair + Anora is part of my ultimate happy ending game.

Not exactly happy to force two people who hate each other to marry.

There is also the problem of an heir, and the recent history of Ferelden shows the difficulty of a political marriage in that department.  Cailan's political marriage to Anora had produced none, Maric's political marriage to Rowan only produced one, and the odds are even less likely for Alistair due to the taint.  And, as aforementioned, due to the fact that he hates Anora and the feeling is mutual.

[Sarah1281]

They don't always hate each other. If Alistair is hardened and Loghain dies, Alistair sounds reasonably happy about being King and having a beautiful fiance if you congratulae him on his engagement and Anora, while a little put-off by Alistair's humor, says she's surprised that he's actually taking his duties seriously and says he reminds her a little of Cailin 'which is no failing.'



I've never put unhardened Alistair with Anora but if Loghain dies, then yes, there's problems. Alistair sees Loghain in Anora and Anora is peeved she has to be the one doing Alistair's job for him because he's sulking.

[SurelyForth]

Addai67 wrote...

CalJones wrote...
My HNM has married Anora - I liked that ending too - but Alistair + Anora is part of my ultimate happy ending game.

Not exactly happy to force two people who hate each other to marry.

There is also the problem of an heir, and the recent history of Ferelden shows the difficulty of a political marriage in that department.  Cailan's political marriage to Anora had produced none, Maric's political marriage to Rowan only produced one, and the odds are even less likely for Alistair due to the taint.  And, as aforementioned, due to the fact that he hates Anora and the feeling is mutual.

I think they could be happy-ish if there's no PC in the picture and if Loghain is executed at the Landsmeet (I see little hope if he is spared both at the Landsmeet and by the Dark Ritual) but the heir thing would still be an issue.

Modifié par SurelyForth, 10 mars 2010 - 08:16 .

[Chasseresse]

Good grief, how many "I HATE ALISTAIR" threads does there need to be?!

Enough already. It's been established that:
A) Alistair has raving fan girls who defend or accept or justify anything he does that is good, bad, or just meh
Alistair has raving haters who will bash/downplay/tear apart anything he does that is good, bad, or just meh
C) there are people who don't give a hoot either way about Alistair but recognize that like all the other characters in this game (including the player character), he too is flawed and not always perfect in the way you want him to be

It would be a fun fantasy social experiment though to learn the demographics of Alistair haters (just as it would be for any other character). Are they really insecure, clueless guys who don't "get" what he has to offer because they themselves can't be the same? Are they girls (or guys playing female PCs) that were "dumped" by him? Are they strict vegans who disapprove of his love for cheese?

Modifié par Chasseresse, 10 mars 2010 - 08:22 .

[errant_knight]

Addai67 wrote...

CalJones wrote...
My HNM has married Anora - I liked that ending too - but Alistair + Anora is part of my ultimate happy ending game.

Not exactly happy to force two people who hate each other to marry.

There is also the problem of an heir, and the recent history of Ferelden shows the difficulty of a political marriage in that department.  Cailan's political marriage to Anora had produced none, Maric's political marriage to Rowan only produced one, and the odds are even less likely for Alistair due to the taint.  And, as aforementioned, due to the fact that he hates Anora and the feeling is mutual.

Hardened Alistair may not be quite as concerned about an heir as it initially appears. In the conversation where you ask him where he sees the relationship going after Eamon has proposed that he become king, and he's hardened (may occur unhardened, too, but I don't remember it--I've only played him unhardened once, though), you can get a line where he says 'maybe the future doesn't have to involve children, or marriage, or... anything at all.' This pretty much covers all the ending options.

If you engage yourself to him, in the conversation afterwards,, you can suggest that an heir isn't necessary. I was very surprised when he said I might be right, and we'd deal with it later.

[Herr Uhl]

Chasseresse wrote...

It would be a fun fantasy social experiment though to learn the demographics of Alistair haters (just as it would be for any other character). Are they really insecure, clueless guys who don't "get" what he has to offer because they themselves can't be the same?

Romanceable in a bioware game, written by the Gaider and voiced by Steve Valentine? That is a lucky few who are indeed.

Are they girls (or guys playing female PCs) that were "dumped" by him? Are they strict vegans who disapprove of his love for cheese?

What are you getting at here?

[Chasseresse]

Tongue in cheek.



Mostly.

[Fishy]

Morrigan she's actually the complete opposite of Alistair.She see man just has sex toy and the sec you give her a gift she believe it's a vibrator .



-Ok you want sex?



She prob got ton of aids but cured it with ancient magic.

[errant_knight]

Damn, I'm getting sick of trolls. There's been a population explosion lately.

[Chasseresse]

They breed like rabbits... or maybe deepstalkers.

[CalJones]

SurelyForth wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

CalJones wrote...
My HNM has married Anora - I liked that ending too - but Alistair + Anora is part of my ultimate happy ending game.

Not exactly happy to force two people who hate each other to marry.

There is also the problem of an heir, and the recent history of Ferelden shows the difficulty of a political marriage in that department.  Cailan's political marriage to Anora had produced none, Maric's political marriage to Rowan only produced one, and the odds are even less likely for Alistair due to the taint.  And, as aforementioned, due to the fact that he hates Anora and the feeling is mutual.

I think they could be happy-ish if there's no PC in the picture and if Loghain is executed at the Landsmeet (I see little hope if he is spared both at the Landsmeet and by the Dark Ritual) but the heir thing would still be an issue.

The outcome appears to be happy if Loghain does the sacrifice - Alistair's only really miffed if his father in law somehow survives. I've done that before - his tantrum is pretty hilarious. But no, my favourite ending is Loghain sacrifice, Alistair and Anora marry and PC goes off to rebuild the wardens (usually with Zevran).

[Sarah1281]

I don't know, the epilgoue cards for Loghain living and dying stay the same so I guess Alistair gets over himself enough not to let it negatively affect Ferelden. If Loghain lives he goes off to rebuild the GW so you don't have to spend the rest of your life doing it and that should keep him nice and occupied and away from Alistair having to play nice with him.

[Bratt1204]

Chasseresse wrote...

Good grief, how many "I HATE ALISTAIR" threads does there need to be?!

Enough already. It's been established that:
A) Alistair has raving fan girls who defend or accept or justify anything he does that is good, bad, or just meh
Alistair has raving haters who will bash/downplay/tear apart anything he does that is good, bad, or just meh
C) there are people who don't give a hoot either way about Alistair but recognize that like all the other characters in this game (including the player character), he too is flawed and not always perfect in the way you want him to be

It would be a fun fantasy social experiment though to learn the demographics of Alistair haters (just as it would be for any other character). Are they really insecure, clueless guys who don't "get" what he has to offer because they themselves can't be the same? Are they girls (or guys playing female PCs) that were "dumped" by him? Are they strict vegans who disapprove of his love for cheese?

I have been psychoanalyzing many of the posters and have come to my own conclusion 

Not too different from what you listed above.

Modifié par Bratt1204, 11 mars 2010 - 12:06 .

[ejoslin]

Psych 101 is a very dangerous class for someone to take, especially if they take it to heart!

[hpjay]

Not to derail the thread, but has anyone thought that Grey Wardens are not meant to be king or queen?  They are meant to kill darkspawn and when they "retire"  they head to the deep roads to kill as many of the buggers as possible.  There's a dialog tree where Riordan talks about one of the other groups of Grey Wardens who are treated as rulers in their land and who seem to like it that way.  Riordan didn't seem to be speaking about that group in a flattering way.  

Also, there's the question of Grey Warden prodigy.  Grey Wardens carry the taint of the dark spawn and the Arch Demon.  And based on Morrigan's ritual it seems the taint is passed to the child.  What does that do to the child.  There's also the possibility that, sans the Morrigan ritual, a Grey Warden couldn't conceive or father a child anyway.


My last playthrough as a Female Human Noble Origin actually had the PC planning the become queen with Alister as King (as a way to get back at Howe and recover Highever).  After the disaster at Ostigar, her whole motivation was to get thru this blight business so she could take vengance on Howe.  After Howe was dead though she realized that that was really no longer her place.  Her place was to defend Fereldan as a Grey Warden, not as a royal.  Duty and all.

Anyway my $0.02

Addai67 wrote...

CalJones wrote...
My HNM has married Anora - I liked that ending too - but Alistair + Anora is part of my ultimate happy ending game.

Not exactly happy to force two people who hate each other to marry.

There is also the problem of an heir, and the recent history of Ferelden shows the difficulty of a political marriage in that department.  Cailan's political marriage to Anora had produced none, Maric's political marriage to Rowan only produced one, and the odds are even less likely for Alistair due to the taint.  And, as aforementioned, due to the fact that he hates Anora and the feeling is mutual.

[Nonvita]

hpjay wrote...

Not to derail the thread, but has anyone thought that Grey Wardens are not meant to be king or queen?  They are meant to kill darkspawn and when they "retire"  they head to the deep roads to kill as many of the buggers as possible.  There's a dialog tree where Riordan talks about one of the other groups of Grey Wardens who are treated as rulers in their land and who seem to like it that way.  Riordan didn't seem to be speaking about that group in a flattering way. 

Technically yes, this is absolutely true. Grey Wardens are absolutely not supposed to meddle in politics, so the fact that both an HN Warden and Alistair are able to take the throne is making huge exceptions to the rule. It can be somewhat justified by claiming it's necessary to end the Civil War, but if you want to remain completely true to the GWs then you put Anora as sole ruler no question.

Also, there's the question of Grey Warden prodigy.  Grey Wardens carry the taint of the dark spawn and the Arch Demon.  And based on Morrigan's ritual it seems the taint is passed to the child.  What does that do to the child.  There's also the possibility that, sans the Morrigan ritual, a Grey Warden couldn't conceive or father a child anyway.

It is extremely difficult for GWs to conceive or father children. In the event that they do, DG confirmed that the child does not inherit the taint. Part of Morrigan's ritual was likely making it so the taint would transfer, but under normal conditions it would not.


Oh, and Alistair!

Modifié par Nonvita, 11 mars 2010 - 12:13 .

[errant_knight]

No, please derail away. The passive-aggression is getting so thick you could cut it with a knife.

[ejoslin]

My HNF still felt a lot of responsibility towards her blood. For all she knew, she was the last of the Couslands. And she was NOT about to let that die out. Plus ending the civil war had to end before blight fighting could begin, and a Cousland/Theirin marriage would do that (all metagaming aside). So marriage to Alistair with the understanding that she would be trying to have a child with someone else seemed to be a pretty reasonable thing. it's not like she didn't return to the grey wardens!

Modifié par ejoslin, 11 mars 2010 - 12:23 .

[Nonvita]

ejoslin wrote...

My HNF still felt a lot of responsibility towards her blood. For all she knew, she was the last of the Couslands. And she was NOT about to let that die out. Plus ending the civil war had to happen before blight fighting could begin, and a Cousland/Theirin marriage would do that (all metagaming aside). So marriage to Alistair with the understanding that she would be trying to have a child with someone else seemed to be a pretty reasonable thing. it's not like she didn't return to the grey wardens!

Mine as well. Actually, Alistair always ends up on the throne for me, if only because so often my characters don't like Anora. I won't claim that it's where he *should* be, but I have no problem doing it even if it goes against everything GW.

errant_knight wrote...

No, please derail away. The passive-aggression is getting so thick you could cut it with a knife.

Well, I for one love Alistair. He's a lot more interesting and dynamic character than some people give him credit for, and I truly feel bad about the circumstances he gets caught up in. I just don't really know what else to say since this thread seems less geared toward discussion and more toward stereotyping and name-calling...

[Sarah1281]

Grey Wardens are only essential during a Blight. They are extremely helpful fighting darkspawn, but you have a huge army who surely isn't going to complain about being used for more than one battle. Plus, if you play as a dwarf and ask for aid, you find out that Ferelden apparently has an army ready to go.



I think the meddling in politics thing has more to do with the Grey Wardens as a whole and not individual members who are the heir to the throne or a high-ranking noble. It' not the common people who have a problem with it, it's just a Grey Warden policy. Like how Grey Wardens are suppose to give up their former lives. No one says 'Oh, you're the last of the Couslands but since you're a Warden I guess Howe can keep Highever' or anything like that. Yes Loghain says he used to be a Teryn, but considering he lost the Landsmeet and basically pissed off anyone even remotely important in Ferelden, I wouldn't be surprised if he just had his title stripped off-screen.



Even at Soldier's Peak, you can express outrage that the Grey Wardens in Ferelden were trying to overthrow the king but not necessarily about the other potential heir attempting a coup. It was that she used the Grey Wardens to do it, jeopardized their neutrality, and got them thrown out of Ferelden that was the problem. Imagine how dead everyone would be if Maric hadn't let them back in.



Besides, duty is fine and all, but after practically single-handedly ending a Blight, I don't think anyone is really going to get upset it the PC decides not to spend the rest of their life rebuilding the Wardens.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

[quote]hpjay wrote...

Not to derail the thread, but has anyone thought that Grey Wardens are not meant to be king or queen?  They are meant to kill darkspawn and when they "retire"  they head to the deep roads to kill as many of the buggers as possible.  There's a dialog tree where Riordan talks about one of the other groups of Grey Wardens who are treated as rulers in their land and who seem to like it that way.  Riordan didn't seem to be speaking about that group in a flattering way.  

Also, there's the question of Grey Warden prodigy.  Grey Wardens carry the taint of the dark spawn and the Arch Demon.  And based on Morrigan's ritual it seems the taint is passed to the child.  What does that do to the child.  There's also the possibility that, sans the Morrigan ritual, a Grey Warden couldn't conceive or father a child anyway.


My last playthrough as a Female Human Noble Origin actually had the PC planning the become queen with Alister as King (as a way to get back at Howe and recover Highever).  After the disaster at Ostigar, her whole motivation was to get thru this blight business so she could take vengance on Howe.  After Howe was dead though she realized that that was really no longer her place.  Her place was to defend Fereldan as a Grey Warden, not as a royal.  Duty and all.

Anyway my $0.02

[quote]Addai67 wrote...


[/quote]

This is pretty much my sentiments, and one of the reasons I seldom crown Alistair. Grey Wardens are supposed to avoid politics, and I had already gotten dragged into one political nightmare with the dwarven king debate. But at least there, neither candidate was a Warden.

Since Anora is an acceptable ruler on her own, I have no problems sticking her on the throne to rule alone. If she was a monster/huge problem, especially if she was interfering in efforts to end the blight, then I'd certainly reconsider. But since there's a suitable alternative, I usually avoid giving the throne to a Grey Warden, let alone a pair of them.

[errant_knight]

ejoslin wrote...

My HNF still felt a lot of responsibility towards her blood. For all she knew, she was the last of the Couslands. And she was NOT about to let that die out. Plus ending the civil war had to end before blight fighting could begin, and a Cousland/Theirin marriage would do that (all metagaming aside). So marriage to Alistair with the understanding that she would be trying to have a child with someone else seemed to be a pretty reasonable thing. it's not like she didn't return to the grey wardens!

That's not a Calenhad heir though, it's an heir to Highever being foisted on the landsmeet as an heir to the throne. It's not so different from Anora's attempt to switch the throne to a Mac Tir royalty, only it's the Couslands. Better to let Alistair father a child with someone else to achieve an heir to the throne, if one's PC considers that important.

[ejoslin]

errant_knight wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

My HNF still felt a lot of responsibility towards her blood. For all she knew, she was the last of the Couslands. And she was NOT about to let that die out. Plus ending the civil war had to end before blight fighting could begin, and a Cousland/Theirin marriage would do that (all metagaming aside). So marriage to Alistair with the understanding that she would be trying to have a child with someone else seemed to be a pretty reasonable thing. it's not like she didn't return to the grey wardens!

That's not a Calenhad heir though, it's an heir to Highever being foisted on the landsmeet as an heir to the throne. It's not so different from Anora's attempt to switch the throne to a Mac Tir royalty, only it's the Couslands. Better to let Alistair father a child with someone else to achieve an heir to the throne, if one's PC considers that important.

Since the Warden is free to try to make an heir with someone else, so is Alistair.  It's not ideal, but it is a solution that ends the civil war and allows the blight to be fought.