134 réponses à ce sujet

[hpjay]

@Nonvita who's DG that they confirmed the taint would not pass to Grey Warden children. I missed that.



@ejoslin My HNF felt the same responsibility. And, from a metagaming POV, I was even planning to have Alister wear Calinan's armor (from Return to Ostigar DLC) while I wore the Cousland armor (from an odd Mod that gave some early Cousland royal loot) at the Landsmeet as we took over the country. But after the death of Howe (Yeah, he deserved more, he deserved my blade twisting in his belly) that fire for revenge was gone. Returning to Highever knowing everyone was dead and gone was too painful (she doesn'rt realize that Fergus is still alive). If the dialog option existed, my HFN would readily have traded with Anora for the death of the remaining Howe's and the restoration of Highever to a local Bann loyal to the old Couslands in exchange for queenship for Anora. As it stands now, my character gave up all aspirations for the throne, passed on Morrigan's ritual, let Alister have his revenge for Duncan's death, and is heading into Denerim (as we speak as a matter of fact) with Alister to finish what they started. And she has no hope that anyone is coming back alive. Yikes thats depressing!!

[Sarah1281]

What reason could they have to avoid politics besides the fact that someone needs to kill darkspawn and deal with a Blight and so people when the political opponents of the Wardens gain power they don't try to marginalize them?



The Grey Wardens as a whole can stay neutral, Alistair and/or the PC can 'leave the Wardens', and everybody wins. People aren't going to immediately ignore the darkspawn after what happened to Denerim and with one or both Wardes in a position of power, they can have a whole freaking army help mop up. That's hardly neglecting their duty and another Blight isn't going to be happening in their lifetime.

[errant_knight]

ejoslin wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

My HNF still felt a lot of responsibility towards her blood. For all she knew, she was the last of the Couslands. And she was NOT about to let that die out. Plus ending the civil war had to end before blight fighting could begin, and a Cousland/Theirin marriage would do that (all metagaming aside). So marriage to Alistair with the understanding that she would be trying to have a child with someone else seemed to be a pretty reasonable thing. it's not like she didn't return to the grey wardens!

That's not a Calenhad heir though, it's an heir to Highever being foisted on the landsmeet as an heir to the throne. It's not so different from Anora's attempt to switch the throne to a Mac Tir royalty, only it's the Couslands. Better to let Alistair father a child with someone else to achieve an heir to the throne, if one's PC considers that important.

Since the Warden is free to try to make an heir with someone else, so is Alistair.  It's not ideal, but it is a solution that ends the civil war and allows the blight to be fought.

I can see that--as long as there's no pretense that the Princess-Consort's child it Alistair's. My only disagreement then would be the need to marry at all, which we've discussed previously. To me, the only reason for the PC to marry Alistair is love, as it's essentailly a selfish, if entirely understandable, decision on their part that could be avoided if personal feelings weren't a factor.

[ejoslin]

errant_knight, you are certainly free to disagree. But it IS a fantasy story, and that is how I roleplay it. There are compelling reasons for MY Cousland to marry Alistair. I guess they're not there for yours, and that's fine!

[Nonvita]

hpjay wrote...

@Nonvita who's DG that they confirmed the taint would not pass to Grey Warden children. I missed that.

David Gaider, the lead writer. Though I'm too lazy to link his post right now. =P

Sarah1281 wrote...

What reason could they have to avoid politics besides the fact that someone needs to kill darkspawn and deal with a Blight and so people when the political opponents of the Wardens gain power they don't try to marginalize them?

The Grey Wardens as a whole can stay neutral, Alistair and/or the PC can 'leave the Wardens', and everybody wins. People aren't going to immediately ignore the darkspawn after what happened to Denerim and with one or both Wardes in a position of power, they can have a whole freaking army help mop up. That's hardly neglecting their duty and another Blight isn't going to be happening in their lifetime.

It has the potential to stain the GW's reputation, though. With one or two GWs ruling an entire country, their actions will be very visible and many things could be taken as unneutral toward the GWs as a whole. Were they to treat the GWs too favorably, appoint certain people to power, or make certain decisions that seem based on their status as a GW, it would be easy to see how it could put the order in danger of remaining neutral. And considering the political difficulties the order has already faced, it seems more appropriate to not get involved too deeply in politics, especially not in such a public way.

(But I still always put Alistair on the throne, and my HN will join him this time as well.)

[Monica21]

ejoslin wrote...

My HNF still felt a lot of responsibility towards her blood. For all she knew, she was the last of the Couslands. And she was NOT about to let that die out. Plus ending the civil war had to end before blight fighting could begin, and a Cousland/Theirin marriage would do that (all metagaming aside). So marriage to Alistair with the understanding that she would be trying to have a child with someone else seemed to be a pretty reasonable thing. it's not like she didn't return to the grey wardens!

I was talking about this in the other Alistair thread, and a Cousland/Theirin marriage does absolutely nothing to end the civil war. The logistics of the Landsmeet are presented in such a way that if your Cousland goes into them thinking that your last name is going to mean anything, she'll be sorely disappointed. The evidence you present is based on you being a Warden. When the nobles vote, they declare that they are "with the Warden." When you deal with Loghain, you do it as a Warden. The decision to marry Alistair is a purely unnecessary one at that point in the game because the nobles have already made the decision yours.

And I actually find the idea of putting a Theirin on the throne and pretending to have his heir (if that is the plan) more than a little illogical.

[ejoslin]

Monica21 wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

My HNF still felt a lot of responsibility towards her blood. For all she knew, she was the last of the Couslands. And she was NOT about to let that die out. Plus ending the civil war had to end before blight fighting could begin, and a Cousland/Theirin marriage would do that (all metagaming aside). So marriage to Alistair with the understanding that she would be trying to have a child with someone else seemed to be a pretty reasonable thing. it's not like she didn't return to the grey wardens!

I was talking about this in the other Alistair thread, and a Cousland/Theirin marriage does absolutely nothing to end the civil war. The logistics of the Landsmeet are presented in such a way that if your Cousland goes into them thinking that your last name is going to mean anything, she'll be sorely disappointed. The evidence you present is based on you being a Warden. When the nobles vote, they declare that they are "with the Warden." When you deal with Loghain, you do it as a Warden. The decision to marry Alistair is a purely unnecessary one at that point in the game because the nobles have already made the decision yours.

And I actually find the idea of putting a Theirin on the throne and pretending to have his heir (if that is the plan) more than a little illogical.

What on earth are you talking about?  When you talk to the nobles beforehand, they most certainly talk about you being a Cousland.  You are DEFINITELY considered one of the nobility.  It is mentioned throughout the game, in fact.  And the fact that you CAN marry Alistair, it IS approved by the landsmeet, is further proof that your name means something.  Theirin/Cousland is an incredibly powerful political match.  Many would have supported Bryce for king over Cailin.  

Edit: And the plan is to stop the civil war.  You may not see the HNF as powerful politically, but there is plenty of in-game evidence that she is.  Even Wynne snaps to attention when she learns who the HNF is.

Modifié par ejoslin, 11 mars 2010 - 01:07 .

[Nonvita]

Honestly, no match is going to save the kingdom. It's pretty obvious they set it up so it will fail somehow or another. Exactly how it will play out in the future (assuming it does) is unclear, but I don't think in the long run it will matter who's on the throne... Ferelden doesn't seem to be done with Civil War yet.

[hpjay]

Sarah1281 wrote...

What reason could they have to avoid politics besides the fact that someone needs to kill darkspawn and deal with a Blight and so people when the political opponents of the Wardens gain power they don't try to marginalize them?

The Grey Wardens as a whole can stay neutral, Alistair and/or the PC can 'leave the Wardens', and everybody wins. People aren't going to immediately ignore the darkspawn after what happened to Denerim and with one or both Wardes in a position of power, they can have a whole freaking army help mop up. That's hardly neglecting their duty and another Blight isn't going to be happening in their lifetime.

Hmmmmm....   how about Warden conscription policy.  If your a Grey Warden King what better way to eliminate political opponents than conscription into the wardens.  Opps, poor Bann so-and-so.  who knew the joining would end so badly for him.  There's too much opportunity for abuse.  Also, when a blight arises the Warden's responsibility is to the Blight, not the kingdom.  A grey warden ruler cannot afford to second guess decisions.  

And with Soldiers Peak we see what happens when Warden's lose a political battle.  They get tossed out and banned.  And if the Warden's stay neutral how do we know the Warden is doing whats good for the kingdom and not just whats good for the Wardens.

As for leaving the Wardens I don't think you really can.  Its not like joining a club where they kick you out if you don't pay your due's.

[Monica21]

ejoslin wrote...
What on earth are you talking about?  When you talk to the nobles beforehand, they most certainly talk about you being a Cousland.  You are DEFINITELY considered one of the nobility.  It is mentioned throughout the game, in fact.  And the fact that you CAN marry Alistair, it IS approved by the landsmeet, is further proof that your name means something.  Theirin/Cousland is an incredibly powerful political match.  Many would have supported Bryce for king over Cailin.  

Edit: And the plan is to stop the civil war.  You may not see the HNF as powerful politically, but there is plenty of in-game evidence that she is.  Even Wynne snaps to attention when she learns who the HNF is.

ejoslin, I don't care if the nobles express sympathy before the Landsmeet. If you don't do the legwork to get the evidence against them beforehand, then it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter who you were, who you are is a Grey Warden to them, and you can't walk in their without having first garnered their favor and without first gathering evidence against Loghain. If you think they're voting for you because of your last name, then I'm not sure what's going on in your game that's different from mine.

And I never said it wasn't a powerful political match, I said it's not necessary to end the civil war.

[ejoslin]

Monica21 wrote...

ejoslin wrote...
What on earth are you talking about?  When you talk to the nobles beforehand, they most certainly talk about you being a Cousland.  You are DEFINITELY considered one of the nobility.  It is mentioned throughout the game, in fact.  And the fact that you CAN marry Alistair, it IS approved by the landsmeet, is further proof that your name means something.  Theirin/Cousland is an incredibly powerful political match.  Many would have supported Bryce for king over Cailin.  

Edit: And the plan is to stop the civil war.  You may not see the HNF as powerful politically, but there is plenty of in-game evidence that she is.  Even Wynne snaps to attention when she learns who the HNF is.

ejoslin, I don't care if the nobles express sympathy before the Landsmeet. If you don't do the legwork to get the evidence against them beforehand, then it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter who you were, who you are is a Grey Warden to them, and you can't walk in their without having first garnered their favor and without first gathering evidence against Loghain. If you think they're voting for you because of your last name, then I'm not sure what's going on in your game that's different from mine.

And I never said it wasn't a powerful political match, I said it's not necessary to end the civil war.

Metagaming aside, it's is a legitimate way to view it.  It's not the ONLY way, but it certainly is a valid way.  With all the dialog choices and paths to go down, you must realize that it IS legitimate.

But it's not only that they express sympathy.  It's not only that at least one offers military support to get "your Teyrnir back."  Even Anora acknowledges that Highever will be restored to you.  If someone doesn't do the legwork, then yes, you don't have THOSE dialogs to back you.  You still do have others that support you (Bann Teagan acknowledging you, for one).  But again, there really is more than one way to play the game, and get very different meanings.

When I play, I do do the legwork.  The nobility all acknowledge the youngest Cousland.  She's offered support.  She even gains an alliance with one.  So her going in believing that a Theirin/Cousland marriage will help solidify things is completely valid.  And the fact that the landsmeet can be persuaded shows that it at least is supported.

edit: And if your Cousland sees it differently, that's great!  Play it that way. 

Modifié par ejoslin, 11 mars 2010 - 01:21 .

[Sarah1281]

Hmmmmm.... how about Warden conscription policy. If your a Grey Warden King what better way to eliminate political opponents than conscription into the wardens. Opps, poor Bann so-and-so. who knew the joining would end so badly for him. There's too much opportunity for abuse. Also, when a blight arises the Warden's responsibility is to the Blight, not the kingdom. A grey warden ruler cannot afford to second guess decisions.

And with Soldiers Peak we see what happens when Warden's lose a political battle. They get tossed out and banned. And if the Warden's stay neutral how do we know the Warden is doing whats good for the kingdom and not just whats good for the Wardens.

As for leaving the Wardens I don't think you really can. Its not like joining a club where they kick you out if you don't pay your due's.

The Right of Conscription isn't something that can be used with no consequence. As Duncan said, it is rarely used because if it is someone high-ranking, they have to undertake the Joining but that doesn't mean they or their allies won't retaliate. Alistair said the Chantry almost had Duncan arrested because Alistair knew Templar secrets but wasn't a lyrium addict yet. Besides, if you really think they are going to potentially kill their political opponents (and it doesn't always work that way) there are other, subtler, more certain ways of doing so. Zevran usually hangs around, for instance, and he sounds quite eager after the coronation to offer his servies.

There's not going to be another Blight right after the first one. It takes time to find an Old God (only two left) and then it takes awhile to mobolize eveyone. Alistair managed to both fight the Blight and be King (although he didn't have his coronation) at the same time. While a monarch would have the problem of whether or not to sacrifice themselves to stop a Blight or live for their country's stability, surely in the future there will be more than three Grey Wardens in Ferelden.

Soldier's Peak was a problem because Arland did exactly what you suggested might happen and made a political opponent a Grey Warden. That sure did a good job of neutralizing her, huh? And they didn't get kicked out because one Grey Warden lead a rebellion (it wasn't because she was a political opponent; she attempted a coup and that is treason since she lost) but because the Grey Warden leader in Ferelden lead ALL of the Grey Wardens against the crown. Since all the Wardens in Ferelden either left because they refused to get involved in politics or stayed and died for the rebellion - or were Avernus - the exile was really more of a 'okay, we don't want any more Grey Wardens' than actively kicking anyone out.

While I agree you can't STOP bein a Grey Warden, you could still officially leave and disavow any association. If the Wardens don't want to get involved with your political career, they won't argue and you'll still find your way to Orzammar eventually. And you can kick Avernus out of the Wardens and he (who presumably knows much more about it than you) doesn't say you can't do that.

Modifié par Sarah1281, 11 mars 2010 - 01:23 .

[krylo]

hpjay wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

What reason could they have to avoid politics besides the fact that someone needs to kill darkspawn and deal with a Blight and so people when the political opponents of the Wardens gain power they don't try to marginalize them?

The Grey Wardens as a whole can stay neutral, Alistair and/or the PC can 'leave the Wardens', and everybody wins. People aren't going to immediately ignore the darkspawn after what happened to Denerim and with one or both Wardes in a position of power, they can have a whole freaking army help mop up. That's hardly neglecting their duty and another Blight isn't going to be happening in their lifetime.

Hmmmmm....   how about Warden conscription policy.  If your a Grey Warden King what better way to eliminate political opponents than conscription into the wardens.  Opps, poor Bann so-and-so.  who knew the joining would end so badly for him.  There's too much opportunity for abuse.  Also, when a blight arises the Warden's responsibility is to the Blight, not the kingdom.  A grey warden ruler cannot afford to second guess decisions.  

And with Soldiers Peak we see what happens when Warden's lose a political battle.  They get tossed out and banned.  And if the Warden's stay neutral how do we know the Warden is doing whats good for the kingdom and not just whats good for the Wardens.

As for leaving the Wardens I don't think you really can.  Its not like joining a club where they kick you out if you don't pay your due's.

The Blight changes everything.

Riordin was sent so that the Grey Wardens could find some way to remove Loghain from power.  Political neutrality in Ferelden was discarded as soon as Loghain named them traitors during the blight.  I would assume this is also why Riordin doesn't protest making Alistair king, and even backs it as a plan if it will remove Loghain.

[errant_knight]

ejoslin wrote...

errant_knight, you are certainly free to disagree. But it IS a fantasy story, and that is how I roleplay it. There are compelling reasons for MY Cousland to marry Alistair. I guess they're not there for yours, and that's fine!

Well, yes. That goes without saying, doesn't it? That we're all roleplaying a game to our tastes? One that leaves all possibilities open to interpretation quite cleverly? I though that's what we were discussing, how we personally see it. It's not like there's a right or wrong here.

[Sarah1281]

I don't care if the nobles express sympathy before the Landsmeet. If you don't do the legwork to get the evidence against them beforehand, then it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter who you were, who you are is a Grey Warden to them, and you can't walk in their without having first garnered their favor and without first gathering evidence against Loghain.

Even if you being a Cousland and therefore they see you as the teryn or teryna, Loghain is ALSO a teryn. You can't just say 'I'm a teryna and therefore Loghain is evil and we should take his power and put Alistair on the throne.' If these people do not see Loghain abusing his power (and to his credit you don't really find anythig until you invade Howe's estate or go to the Alienage which, until very recently, was closed off) then why should they remove a tried and true general from command at the behest of a brand-new teryna?

[Monica21]

ejoslin wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

ejoslin wrote...
What on earth are you talking about?  When you talk to the nobles beforehand, they most certainly talk about you being a Cousland.  You are DEFINITELY considered one of the nobility.  It is mentioned throughout the game, in fact.  And the fact that you CAN marry Alistair, it IS approved by the landsmeet, is further proof that your name means something.  Theirin/Cousland is an incredibly powerful political match.  Many would have supported Bryce for king over Cailin.  

Edit: And the plan is to stop the civil war.  You may not see the HNF as powerful politically, but there is plenty of in-game evidence that she is.  Even Wynne snaps to attention when she learns who the HNF is.

ejoslin, I don't care if the nobles express sympathy before the Landsmeet. If you don't do the legwork to get the evidence against them beforehand, then it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter who you were, who you are is a Grey Warden to them, and you can't walk in their without having first garnered their favor and without first gathering evidence against Loghain. If you think they're voting for you because of your last name, then I'm not sure what's going on in your game that's different from mine.

And I never said it wasn't a powerful political match, I said it's not necessary to end the civil war.

Metagaming aside, it's is a legitimate way to view it.  It's not the ONLY way, but it certainly is a valid way.  With all the dialog choices and paths to go down, you must realize that it IS legitimate.

But it's not only that they express sympathy.  It's not only that at least one offers military support to get "your Teyrnir back."  Even Anora acknowledges that Highever will be restored to you.  If someone doesn't do the legwork, then yes, you don't have THOSE dialogs to back you.  You still do have others that support you (Bann Teagan acknowledging you, for one).  But again, there really is more than one way to play the game, and get very different meanings.

When I play, I do do the legwork.  The nobility all acknowledge the youngest Cousland.  She's offered support.  She even gains an alliance with one.  So her going in believing that a Theirin/Cousland marriage will help solidify things is completely valid.  And the fact that the landsmeet can be persuaded shows that it at least is supported.

edit: And if your Cousland sees it differently, that's great!  Play it that way. 

Military support to get Highever back is not the same as agreeing to let you rule with Alistair. The persuade check is not for Alistair, it's for you. You're not telling them, "hey, it's okay, he's a bit green but I'll help him along." You're telling them, "Alistair should rule and I need your support to let me rule with him."

You can enter the Landsmeet thinking that a Theirin/Cousland marriage will help solidify things, but that's not how things play out. It plays out with you being the final decision-maker. Your dialogue choices are to put Alistair on the throne, or a persuasion check to let you on the throne too.

[ejoslin]

Monica21 wrote...

Military support to get Highever back is not the same as agreeing to let you rule with Alistair. The persuade check is not for Alistair, it's for you. You're not telling them, "hey, it's okay, he's a bit green but I'll help him along." You're telling them, "Alistair should rule and I need your support to let me rule with him."

You can enter the Landsmeet thinking that a Theirin/Cousland marriage will help solidify things, but that's not how things play out. It plays out with you being the final decision-maker. Your dialogue choices are to put Alistair on the throne, or a persuasion check to let you on the throne too.

I thought the persuade check was for the Landsmeet approving you as Alistair's consort.  I never said anything different.  And I disagree with you about whether that's how things play out.  Because, of course, if you're NOT a Cousland, things don't go quite the same way.  

Edit: And Alistair CAN refuse.  The fact that he doesn't if he's not hostile to the Warden indicates that he thinks it's a good idea as well.  Alistair and Anora under some circumstances will refuse to marry as well.  I will never be able to play that Alistair marries the HNF for love.  Alistair will tell the warden that he CAN'T marry for love.  It's all well and good if he loves the HNF, but that's not the reason for the marriage.  It's a powerful political marriage.  And I know you disagree, and you won't be able to convince me otherwise, nor I you I'm sure.

Modifié par ejoslin, 11 mars 2010 - 02:05 .

[Monica21]

ejoslin wrote...
I thought the persuade check was for the Landsmeet approving you as Alistair's consort.  I never said anything different.  And I disagree with you about whether that's how things play out.  Because, of course, if you're NOT a Cousland, things don't go quite the same way.  

Edit: And Alistair CAN refuse.  The fact that he doesn't if he's not hostile to the Warden indicates that he thinks it's a good idea as well.  Alistair and Anora under some circumstances will refuse to marry as well.  I will never be able to play that Alistair marries the HNF for love.  Alistair will tell the warden that he CAN'T marry for love.  It's all well and good if he loves the HNF, but that's not the reason for the marriage.  It's a powerful political marriage.  And I know you disagree, and you won't be able to convince me otherwise, nor I you I'm sure.

The point I'm making about the persuade check is that the nobles don't see a Cousland marriage as something that strengthens Alistair's claim; they just want you to pick someone.

And the basis of the other discussion is that I think Alistair acts out of character during the Landsmeet and just after by agreeing to marry someone he doesn't love, but that's separate from this discussion.

Of course we're not going to agree, but that's what makes the world go round, right?

[ejoslin]

It would be out of character if it were anything but a purely political match . . . The marriage to the Cousland does make sense politically. I don't even know what level of persuade you need. The marriage between Alistair and Anora (and I would assume between the HNM and Anora) ALSO requires a persuade check. ANY marriage needs to be approved by the Landsmeet, not just HNF to Alistair.

Modifié par ejoslin, 11 mars 2010 - 02:40 .

[SurelyForth]

The persuade check is for Alistair. If you fail, you fail because he doesn't want to get engaged without talking about it first (you can tell him that you're the Teryna of Highever and that it's a good match and he'll agree but politely decline the offer). This is at 100 Friendly. At the same crap level of coercion, he'll also refuse to marry Anora (if it wasn't arranged first). You can get him to accept at 100 Love with no coercion.

Landsmeet Alistair is a puppet of persuasion and game contrivances. He wants to kill Loghain, (possibly) become king and become engaged to the HN that he loves. Anything else requires some amount of cajoling. 

The Landsmeet itself is pretty much done with the PC the moment you defeat Loghain in the duel: no decision you make from that point on gets any sort of reaction positive or negative.

Modifié par SurelyForth, 11 mars 2010 - 02:45 .

[ejoslin]

SurelyForth wrote...

The persuade check is for Alistair. If you fail, you fail because he doesn't want to get engaged without talking about it first (you can tell him that you're the Teryna of Highever and that it's a good match and he'll agree but politely decline the offer). This is at 100 Friendly. At the same crap level of coercion, he'll also refuse to marry Anora (if it wasn't arranged first).

Landsmeet Alistair is a puppet of persuasion and game contrivances. The Landsmeet itself is pretty much done with the PC the moment you defeat Loghain in the duel: no decision you make from that point on gets any sort of reaction positive or negative.

Ok, I JUST checked this.  Alistair and Anora is a persuade check, even if it is arranged beforehand.  If the approval was for Alistair, you wouldn't need a persuade check -- he already agreed.  It's the Landsmeet that needs to approve the marriages.

Edit: Sure did.

Second Edit: Apparently, Anora to the human noble male does not need a persuade check.  Interesting!  I guess the queen has a bit more power than Alistair for sure!

Modifié par ejoslin, 11 mars 2010 - 02:49 .

[SurelyForth]

ejoslin wrote...

SurelyForth wrote...

The persuade check is for Alistair. If you fail, you fail because he doesn't want to get engaged without talking about it first (you can tell him that you're the Teryna of Highever and that it's a good match and he'll agree but politely decline the offer). This is at 100 Friendly. At the same crap level of coercion, he'll also refuse to marry Anora (if it wasn't arranged first).

Landsmeet Alistair is a puppet of persuasion and game contrivances. The Landsmeet itself is pretty much done with the PC the moment you defeat Loghain in the duel: no decision you make from that point on gets any sort of reaction positive or negative.

Ok, I JUST checked this.  Alistair and Anora is a persuade check, and no, they WILL marry even if it's not arranged before hand.  And if it IS arranged beforehand, why would you even NEED a persuade check unless, of course, for the same reason the HNF would need one.  It's the Landsmeet that needs to be convinced.  Alistair has to approve as well (as do both Anora and Alistair when trying to get them to marry), but the check is for the Landsmeet.  The only reason I know of that Alistair would actually refuse, if the Landsmeet would approve, is if he hates the Warden.

And you can't tell Alistair about whether you two would be a good match or not.  It's many a fangirls tearjerker as well as they want to be proposed to.  You just don't have that option.

I'm talking about going in with 0 Coercion and base-level Cunning. You will fail the persuade check to have him marry Anora if you don't pre-arrange it and you will fail the persuade check to marry Alistair unless he loves you. He'll ask you why you're suggesting it, and even after explaining that you're the Teryna of Highever he turns you down. 

If the persuade check was just for the Landsmeet, it would fail even if he does love the PC. Since it doesn't, that tells me the check is for him and not the Landsmeet.

[Monica21]

ejoslin wrote...

It would be out of character if it were anything but a purely political match . . . The marriage to the Cousland does make sense politically. I don't even know what level of persuade you need. The marriage between Alistair and Anora (and I would assume between the HNM and Anora) ALSO requires a persuade check. ANY marriage needs to be approved by the Landsmeet, not just HNF to Alistair.

How do you figure that? Alistair breaks up with you after the Landsmeet if you don't make the right dialogue choice, no matter what. Your conversation options afterward are limited to little more than "I could be your mistress." If he thinks it makes sense politically at the Landsmeet, then he should also think it makes sense after the Landsmeet. If marriages need to be approved by the Landsmeet, then he can call another one after the Blight is over. He's king so he gets to do that. The fact is that the conversation options for both of you are limited to breaking up or being a mistress. If you could convince him at the Landsmeet, then you should be able to convince him after the Landsmeet.

And the reverse is true if you do get engaged at the Landsmeet. If he's at 100 Love, then he's marrying you because he loves you. He's disregarding the fact that the two of you will never have an heir and marrying you anyway.

Basically, I think it's out of character for Alistair to agree to marry someone he doesn't love, given everything he knows about the likelihood of producing an heir and both your lifespans. If he's thinking politically, then he shouldn't agree to marry a Cousland if he doesn't love her. What he should be doing is thinking about the Theirin bloodline. You can't have an Alistair who's worried about not producing an heir and an then pretend that Alistair's thinking about politics when he agrees to marry someone with whom he can't have children.

[ejoslin]

SurelyForth wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

SurelyForth wrote...

The persuade check is for Alistair. If you fail, you fail because he doesn't want to get engaged without talking about it first (you can tell him that you're the Teryna of Highever and that it's a good match and he'll agree but politely decline the offer). This is at 100 Friendly. At the same crap level of coercion, he'll also refuse to marry Anora (if it wasn't arranged first).

Landsmeet Alistair is a puppet of persuasion and game contrivances. The Landsmeet itself is pretty much done with the PC the moment you defeat Loghain in the duel: no decision you make from that point on gets any sort of reaction positive or negative.

Ok, I JUST checked this.  Alistair and Anora is a persuade check, and no, they WILL marry even if it's not arranged before hand.  And if it IS arranged beforehand, why would you even NEED a persuade check unless, of course, for the same reason the HNF would need one.  It's the Landsmeet that needs to be convinced.  Alistair has to approve as well (as do both Anora and Alistair when trying to get them to marry), but the check is for the Landsmeet.  The only reason I know of that Alistair would actually refuse, if the Landsmeet would approve, is if he hates the Warden.

And you can't tell Alistair about whether you two would be a good match or not.  It's many a fangirls tearjerker as well as they want to be proposed to.  You just don't have that option.

I'm talking about going in with 0 Coercion and base-level Cunning. You will fail the persuade check to have him marry Anora if you don't pre-arrange it and you will fail the persuade check to marry Alistair unless he loves you. He'll ask you why you're suggesting it, and even after explaining that you're the Teryna of Highever he turns you down. 

If the persuade check was just for the Landsmeet, it would fail even if he does love the PC. Since it doesn't, that tells me the check is for him and not the Landsmeet.

Naw, I don't want to test it THAT badly  But why would a Cousland marriage fail, whether or not he loved the warden?  I don't get that at all.  I see Cousands as a powerful political family, and THAT is what allows Alistair to marry her, not his feelings for her.  His feelings are largely irrelevant.  Both he and Anora accept that.  Alistair even explains that to a non-HNF.  Even if the coercion check is for him (which I don't believe, but for the sake of argument), how does that make the marriage any less political?  

*sigh* I seriously edited that post, but unfortunately, it's quoted in it's really bad entirety here :happy:

[SurelyForth]

ejoslin wrote...

Naw, I don't want to test it THAT badly  But why would a Cousland marriage fail, whether or not he loved the warden?  I don't get that at all.  I see Cousands as a powerful political family, and THAT is what allows Alistair to marry her, not his feelings for her.  His feelings are largely irrelevant.  Both he and Anora accept that.  Alistair even explains that to a non-HNF.  Even if the coercion check is for him (which I don't believe, but for the sake of argument), how does that make the marriage any less political?  

*sigh* I seriously edited that post, but unfortunately, it's quoted in it's really bad entirety here :happy:

I think it's because he really, really doesn't want to marry someone he doesn't love. I think the persuade is totally for him and not the Landsmeet.  They never protest any suggestion you make- but he does.

Re: Persuade checks for a pre-arranged Anora/Alistair marriage. The game has persuade checks in conversations where no persuades are needed (the post-Landsmeet break-up/let's stay together conversation is an example of this) so, unless it can be failed (I can't test that scenario, unfortunately) it logically should not be there. I have a hard time believing it's for the Landsmeet, since Anora is still well-regarded.

Modifié par SurelyForth, 11 mars 2010 - 03:06 .