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[Adynata]

Morrigan even says to you after you kill Flemeth that it won't be the last we see of her mother, so it's evident she isn't really dead. More like going through the motions. I don't know if Flemeth and Morrigan's goal outright was to get the god-child considering that Morrigan didn't exactly fight real hard for it and just sort of goes away if you refuse to do the ritual. But I don't think she did it out of kindness or caring, so I do believe she offerred the ritual b/c she wants to possess that god-child the way Flemeth possessed her own daughters.

This begs the questions then if Flemeth had already possessed Morrigan or that Flemeth was always Morrigan from the start...or I mean Morrigan is Flemeth. I kept waiting to find that out in the game, but it never came to fruition. Considering, though, how she is so willing to walk away even if she was "in love" with the GW then she clearly has other priorities that put her witchiness above her womanhood!

[Sarah1281]

I don't see how Morrigan ditching her love interest is that much different than Alistair ditching his (unless you decide that being his mistress isn't beneath you). Alistair puts the Kingdom above his hormones and Morrigan puts her ambitions above hers. You could say that the Kingdom is a worthier goal, but they still choose what's more important to them.



And if you or Alistair/Loghain refuse the ritual, what is she supposed to do? She can't very well force you to sleep with her.

[NightmarezAbound]

Their goal was to have the Dark Ritual happen, they knew exactly what they would get out of the deal. A Warden freed of death, and the soul of an Old God.

[krylo]

Sarah1281 wrote...

I don't see how Morrigan ditching her love interest is that much different than Alistair ditching his (unless you decide that being his mistress isn't beneath you). Alistair puts the Kingdom above his hormones and Morrigan puts her ambitions above hers. You could say that the Kingdom is a worthier goal, but they still choose what's more important to them.

And if you or Alistair/Loghain refuse the ritual, what is she supposed to do? She can't very well force you to sleep with her.

Because it's ok for men to put their careers first but it's not ok for women to.

[Remy LeBeau]

I think Morrigan was lieing about the possession thing myself. If my memory is right. Doesn't Flemeth say" What is Morrigan up to this time"? Or something like that. when you return to the wilds. I remember a convo Morrigan had with Shale. (This is in my own word). Shale tells Morrigan that she is the only one who can read the Grimoire. So there for she is lieing. She just wants someone to do her dirty work.


One thing that I thought was strange. If the Grimoire is so important why would Flemeth give it up so easily?. She knew Morrigan wanted it. When all I said I just came here to talk. I'm thinking Morrigan most have tried to take the Grimoire before.

Modifié par Remy LeBeau, 11 mars 2010 - 04:19 .

[krylo]

Remy LeBeau wrote...

.Shale tells Morrigan that she is the only one who can read the Grimoire. So there for she is lieing. She just wants someone to do her dirty work.

Except Morrigan also offers to teach Shale, and, presumably, anyone else how to read the book.

Therefore she is telling the truth.

One thing that I thought was strange. If the Grimoire is so important why would Flemeth give it up so easily?. She knew Morrigan wanted it. When all I said I just came here to talk. I'm thinking Morrigan most have tried to take the Grimoire before.

Because she didn't want to fight the wardens and giving up the book was a good way to not get stabbed in the dragon face.

[Sarah1281]

I think Morrigan was lieing about the possession thing myself.

She might have been. But if you don't pick the 'die abomination!' option and you refuse to tell Flemeth why Morrigan sent you, she suggests that Morrigan learned something that disturbed her so chancs are Morrigan doesn't just want her mother out of the way just for kicks.

[Funny_chan]

Remy LeBeau wrote...

I think Morrigan was lieing about the possession thing myself. If my memory is right. Doesn't Flemeth say" What is Morrigan up to this time"? Or something like that. when you return to the wilds. I remember a convo Morrigan had with Shale. (This is in my own word). Shale tells Morrigan that she is the only one who can read the Grimoire. So there for she is lieing. She just wants someone to do her dirty work.


One thing that I thought was strange. If the Grimoire is so important why would Flemeth give it up so easily?. She knew Morrigan wanted it. When all I said I just came here to talk. I'm thinking Morrigan most have tried to take the Grimoire before.

Here:

• Shale: I understand the swamp witch is out to slay its own mother?
• Morrigan: Entirely in self-defense.
• Shale: So it claims. It could not have been its plan from the very beginning, then.
• Morrigan: I knew nothing about my mother's... intentions... prior to finding the book. 'Twas your notion I arranged that?
• Shale: Unnecessary, considering it is the only one who can read the book. It could just as well be a journal, or a book of recipes.
• Morrigan: Would you like me to teach you how to read the book? Then you can see for yourself.
• Shale: (Snorts) Now it is testing me.
• Morrigan: (Chuckles) Well do you care enough to learn, or no?
• Shale: No. I do not care.
• Morrigan: Then leave me be.

Also...

• Shale: The swamp witch desires something from it.
• Morrigan: From what? Ah... you mean from him. (Chuckles) And if I do? What of it?
• Shale: It is aware of the swamp witch's true nature?
• Morrigan: Let me guess. You know my true nature?
• Shale: I have spent a great deal of time observing the world. I know what I see when I see it.
• Morrigan: You spent thirty years watching whatever a
  small village was willing to parade in front of your eyes. Do not cast
  yourself as the worldly sage. At best you are a barely-working statue
  with a poor memory and a poor attitude. Do not seek to begin judging
  me.
• Shale: Hmph. Perhaps it has a point.
• Morrigan: Yes, I should think so.

Taken from the Dragon Age Wiki.

[Remy LeBeau]

Sarah1281 wrote...

I think Morrigan was lieing about the possession thing myself.

She might have been. But if you don't pick the 'die abomination!' option and you refuse to tell Flemeth why Morrigan sent you, she suggests that Morrigan learned something that disturbed her so chancs are Morrigan doesn't just want her mother out of the way just for kicks.

But the Grimoire. Why give it up? 

Morrigan says she can manipulate people to do what she wants. That's way my pc didn't trust her. Thats is why I didn't kill Flemeth. Well that and she did save my life. Even though it was for her on gain. I have a feeling that it is all some big game that Morrigan and Flemeth plays. And it was Checkmate for Morrigan.

[Nonvita]

Adynata wrote...

But I don't think she did it out of
kindness or caring, so I do believe she offerred the ritual b/c she
wants to possess that god-child the way Flemeth possessed her own
daughters.

Arrrrrg not this again. It would be pointless to possess the child, as you can't possess a soul. You can only possess a body. Taking over the child's body would be a complete waste of all the effort it took to capture the Old God's soul, as the soul would be lost.

Remy LeBeau wrote...

But the Grimoire. Why give it up? 

Morrigan says she can manipulate people to do what she wants. That's way my pc didn't trust her. Thats is why I didn't kill Flemeth. Well that and she did save my life. Even though it was for her on gain. I have a feeling that it is all some big game that Morrigan and Flemeth plays. And it was Checkmate for Morrigan.

Why give up the Grimoire? Because it means nothing to Flemeth. She doesn't need it.

Morrigan being able to manipulate people is exactly why I do trust her. If she's so good at it, then why does she let so much emotion slip through, and let feelings get in the way of her goals? I'm not saying she's up to all good, and I think she definitely has grander plans of her own, but I'd trust her any day over Flemeth. Not that it does much good, as you can neither kill Flemeth or Morrigan, nor discover either of their plans. Either way, they'll both be back.

[Andorfiend]

You know, I went to kill Flemeth on my way to Redcliff for the "final fight." If you do it that way you never get a chance to give Morrigan the grimoire.



Hmmm. Personally my thought was that Flemeth was dead and Morrigan wanted to have a god-child that she could possess the same way Flemeth did to her daughters. It's also possible that Flemeth had bargined with Morrigan to take the god-child and spare Morrigan. If I recall correctly Morrigan gets all chipper after giving you the ring. Possibly she used the tracking ring to have a chat with Flemeth and worked out this bargin. So the only lie she tells is that this was the goal all along, and that's just to make herself sound more mysterious and wise.



Looking at it from Flemeth's perspective the only way she loses is if the Warden kills Flemeth and then gives the grimoire to Morrigan, but does not go through with the ritual. If Flemeth is never killed then no problem. If Flemeth is killed and Morrigan doesn't have the grimoire she can just possess Morrigan. If Morrigan has the grimoire and does the ritual she can possess the baby. It's only when Morrigan has defenses and the baby is not conceived that Flemeth risks being left hostless.

[Andorfiend]

Nonvita wrote...

Arrrrrg not this again. It would be pointless to possess the child, as you can't possess a soul. You can only possess a body. Taking over the child's body would be a complete waste of all the effort it took to capture the Old God's soul, as the soul would be lost.

Where did you get that idea? Demons and spirits seem to routinely cohabitate with ensouled bodies. Conner and Wynne are both examples. The Archdemon's vulnerability seems to be unique to it and that probably has more to do with the magic of the joining than anything else.

[Jabraham002]

Remy LeBeau wrote...


But the Grimoire. Why give it up? 

Oh, I bet she has a dozen of those things just laying around. lol  She did right the Grimoire, right?  She could always right another..already knows what's inside.

To anwser the OP's question: Yes and No.  Hope that clears it up!

Yes: You do manage to kill the Archdemon, an old god.  How much more powerfull is Flemeth than a god?

No: Flemeth knows her death is only a set-back, Morrigan said she'd be back.  Perhaps fighting her is a test to see how far you will go to "dance" for Morrigan.  If you are willling to face Flemeth and "kill" her perhaps you will do the DR too?

[Nonvita]

Andorfiend wrote...

Where did you get that idea? Demons and spirits seem to routinely cohabitate with ensouled bodies. Conner and Wynne are both examples. The Archdemon's vulnerability seems to be unique to it and that probably has more to do with the magic of the joining than anything else.

But Flemeth's process for taking over bodies destroys the souls that inhabit them. It's not the same thing as a demon cohabiting in a body- it's literally taking over the body and making it her own. Also, Morrigan says that she can't do what her mother did because she's not an abomination like her mother. I know this is where people will say, "She's lying!" once again, but I seriously don't buy that. I don't think Morrigan lies about every little thing she says.

[Sarah1281]

You know, I went to kill Flemeth on my way to Redcliff for the "final fight." If you do it that way you never get a chance to give Morrigan the grimoire.

Sure you do. Just do the DR then take her into the city with you.

[krylo]

Jabraham002 wrote...

Yes: You do manage to kill the Archdemon, an old god.  How much more powerfull is Flemeth than a god?

Not to mention the Archdemon had an army and its entirely possible to defeat her without using your own.

In my first play through I didn't realize I could call the army at that point... I don't know how I missed it reappearing over at the side after the fort, but...

[Jabraham002]

Nonvita wrote...

Andorfiend wrote...

Where did you get that idea? Demons and spirits seem to routinely cohabitate with ensouled bodies. Conner and Wynne are both examples. The Archdemon's vulnerability seems to be unique to it and that probably has more to do with the magic of the joining than anything else.

But Flemeth's process for taking over bodies destroys the souls that inhabit them. It's not the same thing as a demon cohabiting in a body- it's literally taking over the body and making it her own. Also, Morrigan says that she can't do what her mother did because she's not an abomination like her mother. I know this is where people will say, "She's lying!" once again, but I seriously don't buy that. I don't think Morrigan lies about every little thing she says.

Not that I'm disagreeing, but where does it say that the soul is destroyed?

[Remy LeBeau]

Nonvita wrote...

Adynata wrote...

But I don't think she did it out of
kindness or caring, so I do believe she offerred the ritual b/c she
wants to possess that god-child the way Flemeth possessed her own
daughters.

Arrrrrg not this again. It would be pointless to possess the child, as you can't possess a soul. You can only possess a body. Taking over the child's body would be a complete waste of all the effort it took to capture the Old God's soul, as the soul would be lost.

Remy LeBeau wrote...

But the Grimoire. Why give it up? 

Morrigan says she can manipulate people to do what she wants. That's way my pc didn't trust her. Thats is why I didn't kill Flemeth. Well that and she did save my life. Even though it was for her on gain. I have a feeling that it is all some big game that Morrigan and Flemeth plays. And it was Checkmate for Morrigan.

Why give up the Grimoire? Because it means nothing to Flemeth. She doesn't need it.

Morrigan being able to manipulate people is exactly why I do trust her. If she's so good at it, then why does she let so much emotion slip through, and let feelings get in the way of her goals? I'm not saying she's up to all good, and I think she definitely has grander plans of her own, but I'd trust her any day over Flemeth. Not that it does much good, as you can neither kill Flemeth or Morrigan, nor discover either of their plans. Either way, they'll both be back.

I look at the Grimoire as being Flemeths kryptonite. Morrigan will use it againts Flemeth. That's why I think it is crazy to give it up.

[krylo]

Remy LeBeau wrote...
I look at the Grimoire as being Flemeths kryptonite. Morrigan will use it againts Flemeth. That's why I think it is crazy to give it up.

And if she doesn't she's getting a face full of enchanted warden longsword.

...

.....

The non-sexy kind.

[Andorfiend]

krylo wrote...
And if she doesn't she's getting a face full of enchanted warden longsword.

...

.....

The non-sexy kind.

Enchantment?

[Remy LeBeau]

krylo wrote...

Remy LeBeau wrote...
I look at the Grimoire as being Flemeths kryptonite. Morrigan will use it againts Flemeth. That's why I think it is crazy to give it up.

And if she doesn't she's getting a face full of enchanted warden longsword.

...

.....

The non-sexy kind.

[Nonvita]

Jabraham002 wrote...

Not that I'm disagreeing, but where does it say that the soul is destroyed?

Flemeth takes over the bodies. I don't have the conversation with Morrigan on hand to find any quotes, but it's obvious that the soul is destroyed once Flemeth inhabits the body. That's why Morrigan was so worried about Flemeth taking over her body, as it would destroy her.

And for anyone who thinks Morrigan's going to take over the baby, try watching the conversation with her about it again. Nothing in what she says leads me to believe that she's interested in the body. She's interested in the Old God, as that is the force that holds power. There is more going on than simply a desire to dominate, and it even sounds like there may be the intent of doing something good (in the Morrigan/Flemeth way, at least).

[Maria Caliban]

I do not agree that the soul being destroyed is evident. The one possession we get the chance to investigate is Conner's where both of them have 'control' of the body at times. Wynne has both her own soul and that of a benevolent fade spirit. Awakening seems to have a spirit warrior specialization where the warrior, again, joins with a spirit of the Fade.

We don't know if the abominations in the tower still have a mage soul inside of them or not, as all we do is hack them to bits.

The only talk of souls being destroyed comes from the archdemon, which is not an abomination.

[krylo]

Abominations in the tower, I believe, still have their souls. Most texts on what an abomination is involve a fade spirit overpowering and enslaving the soul of the owner.

Flemeth is... different, however. Is she an amalgam of every being she has devoured? If so how much of a voice would Morrigan have left? Is the ritual she uses a way to subdue/enslave the mage's personality before ever entering the body? If so what chance does Morrigan have? Is she simply so powerful that she has never, in all her centuries of possessing her daughters, failed to take control of the mage she possessed? If so, again, what chance does Morrigan have.

The soul being destroyed is not prerequisite for Morrigan to, rightly, believe that her mother taking her body would be just that--TAKING her body, not sharing.

We also don't know, however, whether the fade spirits can tap into the mage's spirit for power or not once enslaved--so it's still pretty up in the air whether possessing the child would have any effect (beyond possessing any other body, that is).

It is not, however, up in the air as to whether Morrigan can do it, if you listen to the dialogue when you give her the Black Grimoire and mention that Flemeth's secret to immortality could be useful.

Modifié par krylo, 11 mars 2010 - 10:30 .

[Maria Caliban]

Oh, I don't think being possessed by an ancient and powerful spirit would be a pleasant experience. Whatever essence makes Morrigan Morrigan would spend its time at the bottom of a well where Flemith would occasional toss it bread crusts.