1067 réponses à ce sujet

[Stinkface27]

I'm thinking the Hammerhead DLC and the included 5 missions will be a bit more story-driven. I am not about to complain about free DLC though, in any form. =/

[TJSolo]

Darkhour wrote...

Yeah... that would be the logical conclusion when it comes to behavioral patterns. I must have missed intimidation trainer or VH1's new show  N7: Charm School being filmed on the SR-1. I was unaware that having a particular personality required training to become "good at it".

Except that ME2 still has you put points in intimidate/charm just in a slightly different fashion.
Every class gains extra percentages of Paragon and Renegade via their respective Mastery skill tree.
The skills still send Shepard to charm school the same way intimidate/charm does. Only in the skill tree is added to health and class skill.

Yeah, either bringing Miranda on every mission until I get Tali or Legion or be broke and not able to afford fuel, probes or any upgrades from merchants sounds like a great idea.   Thanks for bringing up yet another improvement: Not having to always take particular people with you to access stuff.

Luckily, people who nitpick over pointless, frivolous and illconcieved devices that don't improve gameplay are in the minority. Good job cleaning up the mistakes in ME1, Bioware. Keep up the good work.

Your options were not bring a tech or be broke. Your options would be bring a tech, be a tech, or you can't open that box. 
ME1 had character achievments(75% of main story) based on how much a player used x character and there was a meter showing biotic, tech, and combat balance of your selected team.
ME2 has power combo achievements(low number each) based on what powers you can use plus the complementary one from the teammate. Of the 10 loyalty missions 9 of them require the player to being a certain teammate. There is also a mission that has character requirements of its own.
There is still some control or mechanic influencing what characters a player cna bring for some portion of the game.

Pointless. No.
Frivolous No
Illconcieved. Again no.
Did some of the mechanics need improvement, yes.
Did ME2 get cleaned up and improved that much over ME1? That is debatable. One can read the forums on any given day to see a stickied Improvement needed thread with 80+ pages along with 3 or so threads on the first page with complaints.

Modifié par TJSolo, 10 mars 2010 - 08:00 .

[AngryFrozenWater]

Here's what I think about the direction BioWare has chosen and how it effects its audience...

I think that there is also another "force" at work here. Traditionally BioWare was the home for the RPG fans and for a long time BioWare==RPG in much the same way as DICE was the home for FPS and DICE==FPS. These days you see games that try to mix shooters and RPGs and hope that it will get them a bigger audience. BioWare picked up that trend too. The STALKER series is a good example of a shooter that adds some RPG elements. Still it remained an FPS. Metro 2033 claims (according to the devs) the same. But both STALKER and Metro 2033 (which went gold this week) can get away with it, because they didn't have an existing audience to please. When ME1 was designed BioWare had to please their existing RPG audience by releasing a game in the classic RPG tradition, or one which married RPG and TPS (like the good doctors envisioned) and simply add to the equation that a part of their audience wouldn't like the new direction. I think the latter is exactly what they did. I think BioWare was lucky that they had DA:O in development. If that wasn't the case then I think they would have lost a large part of their traditional audience.

In the meantime EA isn't blind either. This week they made a deal with a company called 38 Studios to publish an "epic single player RPG". That company hired Ken Rolston, former lead designer of Morrowind and Oblivion. They also hired fantasy author R. A. Salvatore. So, my guess is that it will be in some kind of open world fantasy tradition.

I don't think that 38 Studios is competition for BioWare, but it does allow BioWare to move in new directions. It does make me wonder what BioWare is going to do with their DA:O franchise, though.

Press release: EA Signs Publishing Deal With 38 Studios.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Shavon wrote...

ME2 allows us to make decisions

There are a handful of big decisions ME lets you make (I can't speak to ME2), but the moment-to-moment decisions about who your character is and how he responds to situations is entirely out of the player's hands.

Regardless of whether one thinks that's a necessary feature of RPGs, ME unequivocally does not have it.  It is not possible to roleplay Shepard in Mass Effect.  Not unless you're roleplaying a crazy person who doesn't know what he himself is going to do from one moment to the next.

[Mordaedil]

Funnily, it's how I got that far in Mass Effect as I did.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Though, one then wonders how such a person achieved the rank of Commander, and if a society that would give such a person that much power deserves to survive.

[Daeion]

Stinkface27 wrote...

I'm thinking the Hammerhead DLC and the included 5 missions will be a bit more story-driven. I am not about to complain about free DLC though, in any form. =/

Really?  You're thinking the Hammerhead missions will be story driven?  I'm expecting something similar to regular N7 missions where there really isn't much story, just hover around and shoot things that happen to be on a random planet.

[Qwepir]

DarthReavus wrote...

Dead horse ring any bells?

Silly Reavus. Dead horses can't ring bells.

[JKoopman]

Darkhour wrote...

Just like how Shepard is suddenly able to bypass security and hack computers regardless of class. Hey, who needs a tech specialist anymore?

Yeah, either bringing Miranda on every mission until I get Tali or Legion or be broke and not able to afford fuel, probes or any upgrades from merchants sounds like a great idea.   Thanks for bringing up yet another improvement: Not having to always take particular people with you to access stuff.

I know. I hate how in my fantasy RPGs I always have to either learn lock-picking or take a thief with me if I want to open all those locked chests and doors. I mean, why can't I just open them without some frivolous and ill-conceived gameplay mechanic?

[/sarcasm]

On an unrelated note, why is it that most of the people in support of the increased focus on shooting and action in ME2 seem to sound like ignorant 12 year old a-holes? Is there a possible correlation there?

[Crackseed]

JKoopman wrote...

Darkhour wrote...

Just like how Shepard is suddenly able to bypass security and hack computers regardless of class. Hey, who needs a tech specialist anymore?

Yeah, either bringing Miranda on every mission until I get Tali or Legion or be broke and not able to afford fuel, probes or any upgrades from merchants sounds like a great idea.   Thanks for bringing up yet another improvement: Not having to always take particular people with you to access stuff.

I know. I hate how in my fantasy RPGs I always have to either learn lock-picking or take a thief with me if I want to open all those locked chests and doors. I mean, why can't I just open them without some frivolous and ill-conceived gameplay mechanic?

[/sarcasm]

On an unrelated note, why is it that most of the people in support of the increased focus on shooting and action in ME2 seem to sound like ignorant 12 year old a-holes? Is there a possible correlation there?

Is that really necessary Koopman? You naysay alot about this game - why is there some desire to project that people who love ME2 [even if we have minor quibbles with it] can't be just as hardcore RPGers as you?

I've played every Bioware RPG since BG1 - I play tons of RPGs from other companies. I own a slew of them. While I have a few nitpicks with ME2, I firmly find it to be the better game out of the 2 so far by a longshot. I don't insinuate that anyone who hates ME2 and looks at  ME1 with rose-tinted glasses is a daydreaming RPG-nerd. It would be nice to not suggest that just because people are in favor of ME2 and it's changes that they are 12 year old ignorant a-holes.

You want respect, give some - even if people are being idiots, doesn't mean you need to sink to that level. There's players and posters from both camps who are making enough pointless drama that we don't need regular posters getting sucked into it.

[AdrynBliss]

do you play a role? yes.

The neat little box people draw around things THEY think make a rpg is irrelevent. There's a lot of leeway on either side of the line as to what makes a rpg.

Is Mass 2 a rpg? yes.

[Sylvius the Mad]

AdrynBliss wrote...

do you play a role?

No.

You inhabit a role, which might be what is confusing you, but you're unable actually to play it because of that abhorrent dialogue wheel.

[Crackseed]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

AdrynBliss wrote...

do you play a role?

No.

You inhabit a role, which might be what is confusing you, but you're unable actually to play it because of that abhorrent dialogue wheel.

Please point me to an RPG that exists which does not have pre-determined dialogue. There isn't. Even the lofty games like BG1, 2 and Bethesday RPGs all do this. The only knock people could put against the dialogue wheel is that it neatly separates the evil/neutral/good responses in a visible way whereas with other games like Dragon Age, you are making a bit more educated guess by reading the convo response options.

Unless you're going to go to MUDs and text-based ones, or something like NWN's DM campaign modules. Outside of that, EVERY RPG we have played falls under this auspice. We have limited dialogue options but within those options we are still fulfilling and PLAYING a role.

Modifié par crackseed, 10 mars 2010 - 08:56 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

crackseed wrote...

Please point me to an RPG that exists which does not have pre-determined dialogue.

Would you people stop constructing this appalling straw-man?

Right, you can't. Unless you're going to go to MUDs and text-based ones, or something like NWN's DM campaign modules. Outside of that, EVERY RPG we have played falls under this auspice. We have limited dialogue options but within those options we are still fulfilling and PLAYING a role.

That we have limited dialogue options isn't the problem.  The problem is that we CAN'T SEE THEM, so we're never able to choose among them.

You cannot reasonably be said to have chosen a dialogue option if you didn't know what it was when you were making the choice.

[Crackseed]

I'll stop using that "strawman" when you stop trying to insist that we're not roleplaying in the ME universe I choose to have my Commander Shep be an honorable individual. I choose responses that I would choose were it me, therefore I am roleplaying. While I cannot disagree that ME2's dialogue options are a bit more confined [only 3 real options outside of the interrupts and special paragon/renegade choices] it is still putting the players forward as playing the role they choose.

Edit: Ugh, tweaked some grammar - sorry Sylvius, please don't take my responses as "OMG ur dum" - it's a good discussion and debate in that vein and I'm not intending to come off as flaming your thoughts.

Modifié par crackseed, 10 mars 2010 - 09:01 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

crackseed wrote...

I'll stop using that "strawman" when you stop trying to insist that we're not roleplaying in the ME universe I choose to have my Commander Shep be an honorable individual.

How?  you don't know what he's going to do after you make a selection on the wheel.  He could say something with which you disagree.  He could act out of character.  You can't know in advance of his actions.

That's the problem.

[Tasker]

Daeion wrote...

Stinkface27 wrote...

I'm thinking the Hammerhead DLC and the included 5 missions will be a bit more story-driven. I am not about to complain about free DLC though, in any form. =/

Really?  You're thinking the Hammerhead missions will be story driven?  I'm expecting something similar to regular N7 missions where there really isn't much story, just hover around and shoot things that happen to be on a random planet.

Have to agree with you there, going off what they've shown so far i'm not impressed.  But then I thought the same thing about the team mates before the game was released and was pleasently surprised, so you never know.


I'm not going to go on again about what I think of the leveling and inventory system for ME2, most probably already know that I think Bioware made the wrong decision taking it in the direction that they did.

However, I would like to say something I haven't comented on before...

The mission structure.

For a story based RPG, the mission structure of ME2 is a bit naff.

Does anyone else think the whole recruiting of allies could have been handled a hell of a lot better than the way it was?

Me1 has that great sense of epicness that truley awsome RPGs usually have and I think it's down to the fact that the story flows from location to location with purpose and drama, rather than being disjointed and separate like ME2.

ME1 character recruitment was almost an organic thing, we stumbled upon them as we were doing other missions and it added to the experiance.

I feel that ME2 having so many straight up 'go here and get person A', 'go there and get person B' missions hurt the overall feel of the game and made it seem much more disjointed than it could have been.

Surely they could have merged a few of the recruitment missions into each other and had them placed for you stumble across as you went about doing something else?  Legion was a perfect example of this.

And Instead of the upgrade conversation trees, why couldn't they have been missions. 

Something like - 

TIM speaks with you after giving you the Normandy and tells you that although it's the most advanced ship ever built, it's not up to the job of taking on the collectors, but he knows of an illegal weapons lab on Omega that has been working on a fancy weapon doodad that you could "borrow". 

You get there to find the Garrus mission as it currently is in ME2 but the area he's holed up in is the weapons lab TIM mentioned.

As you make your way to him, you find out that one group of mercs has gotten fed up with the others constantly failing to take him out and have hired an assassin to kill Garrus.

The assassin turns out to be Thane, which gives you added drama
 
- Do you help Thane? Do you help Garrus? Or is there a way to recruit them both
- Will you escape with the weapon doodad? Will you have to leave it behind? Or will the mercs destroy it befor you can run off with it?


OK, so i'm no writer and the idea is a bit crude, but who wouldn't have found something like that more engrosing than ME2s 'go here and get person A', 'go there and get person B'  missions?

Modifié par Orkboy, 10 mars 2010 - 09:13 .

[AngryFrozenWater]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

crackseed wrote...

I'll stop using that "strawman" when you stop trying to insist that we're not roleplaying in the ME universe I choose to have my Commander Shep be an honorable individual.

How?  you don't know what he's going to do after you make a selection on the wheel.  He could say something with which you disagree.  He could act out of character.  You can't know in advance of his actions.

That's the problem.

I don't think so. BioWare has chosen a brief option description instead of the full text. Often it is accurate. Sometimes it's not (whether that's intentional or not remains a question).

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 10 mars 2010 - 09:20 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

I don't think so. BioWare has chosen a brief option description instead of the full text. Often it is accurate. Sometimes it's not (whether that's intentional or not remains a question).

Whether it is accurate is immaterial.  It's not fully descriptive.  The details are missing, and which details are important will differ from character to character.

[Tazzmission]

Daeion wrote...

Stinkface27 wrote...

I'm thinking the Hammerhead DLC and the included 5 missions will be a bit more story-driven. I am not about to complain about free DLC though, in any form. =/

Really?  You're thinking the Hammerhead missions will be story driven?  I'm expecting something similar to regular N7 missions where there really isn't much story, just hover around and shoot things that happen to be on a random planet.

the hammerhead dlc isnt story driven. it was mentioned last week on gttv from the men of bioware themselves

[Gorn Kregore]

I agree that the dlc we're getting now is p ridiculous but its free so its tough to complain about. Needs more story driven DLCs though.

[Tazzmission]

Gorn Kregore wrote...

I agree that the dlc we're getting now is p ridiculous but its free so its tough to complain about. Needs more story driven DLCs though.

basicly story driven dlc would ruin the ending of this game come to think of it... the scene before the credits basicly shows whats coming in the next game

[EternalWolfe]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

I don't think so. BioWare has chosen a brief option description instead of the full text. Often it is accurate. Sometimes it's not (whether that's intentional or not remains a question).

Whether it is accurate is immaterial.  It's not fully descriptive.  The details are missing, and which details are important will differ from character to character.

Whether it is fully descriptive is immaterial.  You are still playing a role - you just have to work from the summary of the dialouge rather then the specifics.  This doesn't negate that it is role playing, only notes something that would aid in roleplaying were it fixed.

It does have certain problems with causing your Shepard to say something he wouldn't, but then again, sometimes you don't have a decision that will fit your character at all.  What then, is it no longer role playing because they don't create something for every possible character to think up, since they are making your character say something they wouldn't?

Note: For the arguement over whether or not its roleplaying from the point that you can only play as Shepard - its limited role playing, you are given a set of information and background that is unchangeable, but you can choose to make your character act as you wish within that bounds of the story.

[Daeion]

Tazzmission wrote...

Daeion wrote...

Stinkface27 wrote...

I'm thinking the Hammerhead DLC and the included 5 missions will be a bit more story-driven. I am not about to complain about free DLC though, in any form. =/

Really?  You're thinking the Hammerhead missions will be story driven?  I'm expecting something similar to regular N7 missions where there really isn't much story, just hover around and shoot things that happen to be on a random planet.

the hammerhead dlc isnt story driven. it was mentioned last week on gttv from the men of bioware themselves

right, which was why I was surprised at this persons comment.