1067 réponses à ce sujet

[TornadoADV]

Gazrion wrote...

like i said in one of my previous posts i genrally only play rpgs ie NWN, balders gate, morrowind, fallout ect I even played and loved pool of raideance (spelling aggh). What i dont get is how people say me2 is a shooter only. Ive not played many only a bit of halo and dead space but got bored. So can someone please tell if you can customize your avatar, upgrade weapons/ship, interact with most npc on some level, change your armour ect, gain experiance and level, gather a team and gain loyalty just to mention a few things in ME2. if you can do these things in fps then i will agrree that this is fps.

Wow, you just described Dead Space, a very well done Horror TPS. Do you generally defeat your own statements in the same breath?

[Tazzmission]

basicly the whole point of me2 was to get to know your squad... personaly i loved it story is really deep with specific charachters. as far as rpg go's i think people fail to realise its not 100% rpg its a rpg/shooter combo. i like it and just finished my 6th playthrough. now i do agree agree there should be more story dlc but to say this game has not one ounce of rpg is pure ignorant.

[TornadoADV]

Collider wrote...

Yes, let's have the nightmare inventory and useless and clunky abilities back. Oh wait. I actually hate that. ME2 ftw. Mass Effect is an RPG. roleplaying[/i] game. You are roleplaying [/i]as Shepard.

I'm roleplaying Isaac Clarke in Dead Space, that must make an RPG!....oh wait.

basicly the whole point of me2 was to get to know your squad... personaly i loved it story is really deep with specific charachters. as far as rpg go's i think people fail to realise its not 100% rpg its a rpg/shooter combo. i like it and just finished my 6th playthrough. now i do agree agree there should be more story dlc but to say this game has not one ounce of rpg is pure ignorant.

Modern Warfare 2 and Bad Company 2's online systems are more RPG then Mass Effect 2 by any yard stick of measurement.

Modifié par TornadoADV, 10 mars 2010 - 07:22 .

[Massadonious1]

Technically, Pong is a RPG because you can roleplay as the left paddle.



...



Don't be so dense.

[SirVincealot]

bobobo878 wrote...

I'm sorry, ever heard of the "first ammendment"[sic] buddy? I'm going to say whatever I want, and your[sic] going to like it.

Simmer down, pal. 'Twas an - arguably aughty - invitation to listen to a well-founded argument, such as: "DRAGON AGE sold poorly, as did other old-school cRPGs, indicating changing moods in the gamer pool" supported by at least a few facts.

Defensive posturing laced with machismo don't address the matter at hand. Query is still on the floor.

SirV

[SurfaceBeneath]

TornadoADV wrote...
I'm roleplaying Isaac Clarke in Dead Space, that must make an RPG!....oh wait.

You don't roleplay as Isaac Clarke. Roleplaying means that you assume the role of the character and are able to influence their actions in a meaningful way, not just merely control them.

[SirVincealot]

Massadonious1 wrote...

Technically, Pong is a RPG because you can roleplay as the left paddle.

Most, if not all, arguments based on the nature of RPGs that are on these boards essentially come down to that very thing, asserted without any foundation.

Peeps argue endlessly without having first agreed on a minimum understanding of what it is they mean with this or that word. As no intelligent convo can long survive such, heated words and "well, it's *my* opinion" inveriably follows.

Makes for amusing, if vacuous, reading.

SirV

[Tazzmission]

bobobo878 wrote...

No one has the attention span to play "real" rpgs anymore.

shut up dude seriously. if you want just regular rpg than go play ff13.  i was never a rpg or shooter fan until i played these to me games so either quit being a pansy or seriously except the game for what it is

[SirVincealot]

SurfaceBeneath wrote...Roleplaying means that you assume the role of the character and are able to influence their actions in a meaningful way, not just merely control them.

Okay. Now we've got at least a start.

Question: how can you "meaningfully influence" the actions of a character with set, finite variables?

In other words: all I can do in a computer RPG is follow the paths laid out by the designers. Nothing more.

Question: is this still a RPG?

(I say "no" but am open to discussion and reasoned arguments)

Regards,
SirV

[Tazzmission]

SirVincealot wrote...

SurfaceBeneath wrote...Roleplaying means that you assume the role of the character and are able to influence their actions in a meaningful way, not just merely control them.

Okay. Now we've got at least a start.

Question: how can you "meaningfully influence" the actions of a character with set, finite variables?

In other words: all I can do in a computer RPG is follow the paths laid out by the designers. Nothing more.

Question: is this still a RPG?

(I say "no" but am open to discussion and reasoned arguments)

Regards,
SirV

as great as a game dead space is its no rpg .... now both me games are rpgs because you dont just controll the charachter the actions of your charachter decides a fate for you and or for your team. i sometimes question if people really know what they want anymore because all i see is negative comments and crybabying about what the free dlc is.... it was what 3 - 4 years ago pplcrabbed about lack of dlc for me1

[AlanC9]

Obviously the key question is the definition of "meaningfully." I don't think you'll get anywhere with that one, though.

[ObserverStatus]

Tazzmission wrote...

bobobo878 wrote...

No one has the attention span to play "real" rpgs anymore.

shut up dude seriously. if you want just regular rpg than go play ff13.  i was never a rpg or shooter fan until i played these to me games so either quit being a pansy or seriously except the game for what it is

Funny I just read that FFXIII's producer said  it is not an rpg. http://www.gamegrep....usive_screens/

I personaly enjoyed mass effect and fallout 3 but I still can't help wondering where the conventional rpg has gone.

Modifié par bobobo878, 10 mars 2010 - 07:38 .

[Massadonious1]

bobobo878 wrote...

SirVincealot wrote...

bobobo878 wrote...

No one has the attention span to play "real" rpgs anymore.

Back that up with data or it's just another form of the "Darn kids!" argument.

SirV

I'm sorry, ever heard of the "first ammendment" buddy? I'm going to say whatever I want, and your going to like it.

BioWare could forum ban you for talking about puppies and kittens and there would be nothing you can do about it.

Has anyone who was not required to for college studies and such have actually read the 1st Amendment lately?

Modifié par Massadonious1, 10 mars 2010 - 07:37 .

[Murmillos]

SirVincealot wrote...

SurfaceBeneath wrote...Roleplaying means that you assume the role of the character and are able to influence their actions in a meaningful way, not just merely control them.

Okay. Now we've got at least a start.

Question: how can you "meaningfully influence" the actions of a character with set, finite variables?

In other words: all I can do in a computer RPG is follow the paths laid out by the designers. Nothing more.

Question: is this still a RPG?

(I say "no" but am open to discussion and reasoned arguments)

Regards,
SirV

Thats why we normally state RPG's on the Computer (or any electronic device) as CRPGs..  They are still RPG's with in the limits as given by the designers.  It is not as open and limitless as 2+ guys talking and debating with books, dice and Character Sheets in hand, but it still does its best to replicate that.  (or as many say, "Imagine you are playing under the worst most restrictive and anal retentive DM/GM know to man. That is what playing a CRPG is."

We deal with the pre-determined limits, we try to write away or not even think about the obvious omissions - but in the end, we just want to have a good time with a good story with in a system that makes sense and allows for the best customization as possible.

ME1 allowed a lot of open customization, ME2 limited a lot of this customization.  If you limit the ability for the player to customize themselves, then you limit the amount or strength of the "RP".

End the end, with all the little bits that people call for RPG's, they in the end result for one thing which makes a game an RPG; "player/avatar customization".

Edit below
Questions an RPG should answer too:
What is my race, what is my sex, what do I look like, what are my traits? What is my specialty, what are my talents, how do I dress, what do I eat?
How do I fight, what do I fight with, what are my strength and weaknesses that determine the lines in the battle.
Do I trust armor, or do I trust magic, or do I trust the shadows.
Am I sly and quick to strike, or do I make presence known and only strike when action demanded it.
Do I fight for Honor, or do I fight for money?  Or do I fight because I love a good fight?
Where do I go, what do I do, how do I act, whom tags along with me - or do I go it alone.

An RPG does not need to answer all of these, but the more there is on the table, the better or richer the RPG experience is. If you limit the player, you limit the ability for him to roll play.

Modifié par Murmillos, 10 mars 2010 - 07:50 .

[Tazzmission]

TornadoADV wrote...

Collider wrote...

Yes, let's have the nightmare inventory and useless and clunky abilities back. Oh wait. I actually hate that. ME2 ftw. Mass Effect is an RPG. roleplaying[/i] game. You are roleplaying [/i]as Shepard.

I'm roleplaying Isaac Clarke in Dead Space, that must make an RPG!....oh wait.

basicly the whole point of me2 was to get to know your squad... personaly i loved it story is really deep with specific charachters. as far as rpg go's i think people fail to realise its not 100% rpg its a rpg/shooter combo. i like it and just finished my 6th playthrough. now i do agree agree there should be more story dlc but to say this game has not one ounce of rpg is pure ignorant.

Modern Warfare 2 and Bad Company 2's online systems are more RPG then Mass Effect 2 by any yard stick of measurement.

your an idiot. cod mw2 isnt no rpg and online has nothing to do with me2

[ObserverStatus]

HAHAHA cod6 needs a "helm of +2 constitution" perk

[sonofalich]

excellent and dragon age dlc are not compatible

[ObserverStatus]

It all depends on your standards. If you use something like "The Pitt" as your measuring stick, no dlc will live up to you expectations. I have come across considerably worse dlc than return to ostagar.

[SurfaceBeneath]

SirVincealot wrote...

SurfaceBeneath wrote...Roleplaying means that you assume the role of the character and are able to influence their actions in a meaningful way, not just merely control them.

Okay. Now we've got at least a start.

Question: how can you "meaningfully influence" the actions of a character with set, finite variables?

In other words: all I can do in a computer RPG is follow the paths laid out by the designers. Nothing more.

Question: is this still a RPG?

(I say "no" but am open to discussion and reasoned arguments)

Regards,
SirV

Very salient questions, however then we start opening up the discussion on exactly if any video game can possibly be an RPG since they are all confined by the limits of development. Is there another objective category that we can judge whether a game is an RPG or not by? I don't think so. Any other aspect people usually expect RPGs from exists in other categories of games.

So I think we need to look at the intent of the game. Is the intent of the game to give you an avatar from which to develop a character which is uniquely yours and which differs from other players? Are you given at least some autonomy as a player to influence the game in a unique way? If so, then I think the game does classify, for all intents and purposes, as an RPG.

This is a debate I enjoy having and am more than willing to engage in well reasoned responses on the opposite side.

[SirVincealot]

Murmillos wrote...
We deal with the pre-determined limits, we try to write away or not even think about the obvious omissions[snip]

If you limit the ability for the player to customize themselves, then you limit the amount or strength of the "RP".

End the end, with all the little bits that people call for RPG's, they in the end result for one thing which makes a game an RPG; "player/avatar customization".

Edit below
Questions an RPG should answer too:
1- What is my race, what is my sex, what do I look like, what are my traits?
2 -What is my specialty, what are my talents, how do I dress, what do I eat?
3 - How do I fight, what do I fight with, what are my strength and weaknesses that determine the lines in the battle.
4 - Do I trust armor, or do I trust magic, or do I trust the shadows.
5 - Am I sly and quick to strike, or do I make presence known and only strike when action demanded it.
6 - Do I fight for Honor, or do I fight for money?  Or do I fight because I love a good fight?
7 - Where do I go, what do I do, how do I act, whom tags along with me - or do I go it alone.

If you limit the player, you limit the ability for him to roll[sic] play.

Good stuff here. Let's get to work.

Agreeing generally with your clarification between RPG and cRPG, my point was precisely that: once so much of the experience has been stripped away, it's a shooter with dialogue and inventory. There is still *no way* for my avatar to interact with the world in any way other than banal (open door, flip switch, raise platform) and no way for me to change the course of my destiny

Think on that if you will, because I hold it as the most significant difference between sports, society games, skill games, brain teasers and role-playing games.

To your questions:

#1 amd 2 are crucial, but I wonder if you simply omitted to add that these are the player's options. In other words: all this is answered by DukeNukem or the Quake Marine. What differentiates MASS EFFECT is that it's up to me. To a point, anyway.

#3 ,4, 5, and 6 all have to do with combat and are much, much further down the list. Far enough to be non-specific. #3 can be answered by the convict in UNREAL. #4 by the avatar of DIE BY THE SWORD. #5 is the whole point of THIEF: THE DARK PROJECT (aka THIEF, aka DARK CAMELOT).

#6 gets us a little closer to the essence of RPG by asking about motivation - MASS EFFECT tries to add this dimension - as does FALLOU3 and every ULTIMA since THE QUEST FOR THE AVATAR - by the expedient of a karmic system. However, here too we are bound by certain combinations and restrictions. HOWEVER the essence of it is crucial.

#7 is the whole shebang. And, again, I must ask: if all these are mere variations within the strict coding of the game design, if my destiny is in the hands of the computer code, is it still a role-playing game?

I realize it's mere philosophy. But it's fun to back-and-forth on it.

I posit that until an actual V.I. runs the code, it's not a roleplaying game - merely something else with elements borrowed for RPGs...

Regards,
SirV

Modifié par SirVincealot, 10 mars 2010 - 08:13 .

[SirVincealot]

SurfaceBeneath wrote..
Is there another objective category that we can judge whether a game is an RPG or not by?

I offer destiny as a yardstick. If I ultimately don't have a say in my destiny, it's not a RPG.

So I think we need to look at the intent of the game. Are you given at least some autonomy as a player to influence the game in a unique way? If so, then I think the game does classify, for all intents and purposes, as an RPG

My answer is emphatically NO. You, the player, cannot influence the game in a unique way: you can only make the code run.

There is no way for me to play MASS EFFECT as other than a shooter. I can't decide to play it like THIEF. Or switch between the two. Or no do the main quest at all. Or kill the cigarette dude and take over the organization. Or rejoin the Navy. Or go to Geth space and build an army with Legion. Or turn over a table, open a door, break a window that the designers have not specifically prepared.

This is not even the apparence of freedom, as in Bethesda Softworks games. It's pure straightjacket.

IT DOES NOT MAKE THE GAME ANY LESS FUN. So let's not have any of *those* arguments, please.

Point is: my destiny is in Carey Hudson's and his team's hands. Not mine.

Counterpoint?

Regards,
SirV

[Deflagratio]

SirVincealot wrote...

SurfaceBeneath wrote..
Is there another objective category that we can judge whether a game is an RPG or not by?

I offer destiny as a yardstick. If I ultimately don't have a say in my destiny, it's not a RPG.

So I think we need to look at the intent of the game. Are you given at least some autonomy as a player to influence the game in a unique way? If so, then I think the game does classify, for all intents and purposes, as an RPG

My answer is emphatically NO. You, the player, cannot influence the game in a unique way: you can only make the code run.

There is no way for me to play MASS EFFECT as other than a shooter. I can't decide to play it like THIEF. Or switch between the two. Or no do the main quest at all. Or kill the cigarette dude and take over the organization. Or rejoin the Navy. Or go to Geth space and build an army with Legion. Or turn over a table, open a door, break a window that the designers have not specifically prepared.

This is not even the apparence of freedom, as in Bethesda Softworks games. It's pure straightjacket.

IT DOES NOT MAKE THE GAME ANY LESS FUN. So let's not have any of *those* arguments, please.

Point is: my destiny is in Carey Hudson's and his team's hands. Not mine.

Counterpoint?

Regards,
SirV

According to your definition, the RPG genre doesn't exist in software based games.

That's a very antagonistic and closed minded look at the genre, though if I were be so bold, as valid as any other, if slightly more, since it's a very Gygax-esqu view. Still Stick to the past, and the world will leave you behind. Humanity is based on progression, to do anything less is to be a failure of a human being.

Modifié par Deflagratio, 10 mars 2010 - 08:37 .

[SurfaceBeneath]

SirVincealot wrote...

SurfaceBeneath wrote..
Is there another objective category that we can judge whether a game is an RPG or not by?

I offer destiny as a yardstick. If I ultimately don't have a say in my destiny, it's not a RPG.

So I think we need to look at the intent of the game. Are you given at least some autonomy as a player to influence the game in a unique way? If so, then I think the game does classify, for all intents and purposes, as an RPG

My answer is emphatically NO. You, the player, cannot influence the game in a unique way: you can only make the code run.

There is no way for me to play MASS EFFECT as other than a shooter. I can't decide to play it like THIEF. Or switch between the two. Or no do the main quest at all. Or kill the cigarette dude and take over the organization. Or rejoin the Navy. Or go to Geth space and build an army with Legion. Or turn over a table, open a door, break a window that the designers have not specifically prepared.

This is not even the apparence of freedom, as in Bethesda Softworks games. It's pure straightjacket.

IT DOES NOT MAKE THE GAME ANY LESS FUN. So let's not have any of *those* arguments, please.

Point is: my destiny is in Carey Hudson's and his team's hands. Not mine.

Counterpoint?

Regards,
SirV

I'm not sure what you mean. Can you define your destiny in any other computer RPG out there? Not really. In most RPGs, you play a character involved in a "story" in some manner, however the ultimate goal of that story is always defined by the story's author, even if they might provide a few different options, these are merely permutations of the ending the author intended to have. I can only think off hand of a few RPGs that meet your criteria barely, that being the original Fallout and to a lesser extent Arcanum and Fallout 2. And even then, the endings are mere permutations that the storyteller included. It's a slightly looser straight jacket as you describe it, but no less a straight jacket. Certainly no Bioware RPGs allow for that kind of control over your destiny.

I think, at the core, RPGs were first ported over to the computer medium in an attempt to recreate the pen and paper experience of acting out as not just a character, but the embodyment of the player assuming a fantastic role. Being that no developer or computer can possibly fully account for the endless possibility and permutations the human imagination allows, no digital facsimile can possibly approach the level of freedom that any good pen and paper roleplay allows. However, that doesn't mean that the medium cannot attempt to imitate it, and this is where I would allow catagorization of games as "RPGs"

Excuse me for long response times. I happen to be at work while posting

Modifié par SurfaceBeneath, 10 mars 2010 - 08:46 .

[SirVincealot]

Deflagratio wrote...

According to your definition, the RPG genre doesn't exist in software based games.

Correct. But I am willing, unlike you, to listen and debate in order to change my mind according to the soundness of counter-arguments.

This view of mine was not always so. And it may change.

Stick to the past, and the world will leave you behind. Humanity is based on progression, to do anything less is to be a failure of a human being.

Ad-hominem, contemptuous and *completely* besides the point of the last few posts.

SirV

[SirVincealot]

SurfaceBeneath wrote...
In most RPGs, you play a character involved in a "story" in some manner, however the ultimate goal of that story is always defined by the story's author, even if they might provide a few different options, these are merely permutations of the ending the author intended to have.[snip] It's a slightly looser straight jacket as you describe it, but no less a straight jacket. Certainly no Bioware RPGs allow for that kind of control over your destiny.

I think, at the core, RPGs were first ported over to the computer medium in an attempt to recreate the pen and paper experience of acting out as not just a character [snip]

However, that doesn't mean that the medium cannot attempt to imitate it, and this is where I would allow catagorization of games as "RPGs"

Excuse me for long response times. I happen to be at work while posting

Is it daytime where you work? Or are you a night owl as I am?

It seems to me that when RPGs were first ported - and they were the first to *be* ported - stats came to the fore since computers are such good statisticians.

And we have been trying to break that mold ever since, with more or less success.

I agree with the imitation. Computer games can only, so far, attempt to imitate a certain type of game mechanics. Not surprisingly, what they're best at are stats: combat stats, inventory stats, disposition stats.

Which is also why romance in MASS EFFECT are so domino-esque. Push this tile, now that one . . .

No one has tried to make a CALL OF CTHULHU crpg (there is an adventure game published by Beth.) The brand certainly isn't strong enough but more importantly, the Chaosium system is too dependent on variables to work in a machine that basically crunches numbers to arrive at a set result (integers here, non-integers there).

We need V.I.s

Let's get Avina in here!

SirV

Modifié par SirVincealot, 10 mars 2010 - 09:06 .