Hi guys,
I saw this comparison of weapon dps here (http://masseffect.wi...onry_Comparison).
Assuming that these figures are accurate, why would anyone ever use heavy pistols over SMGs? The hand cannon's unupgraded dps vs armor is 106. The tempest's unupgraded dps vs armor is 148. Therefore, adjusting for rates of fire (hence the use of dps rather than damage per shot), the tempest is still superior to the hand cannon against armor. Since the tempest also has higher dps vs shields and barriers, and plentiful ammo besides, there would seem to be no reason, EVER, to use a heavy pistol.
What am I missing here?
Thanks.
Why use heavy pistols?
Débuté par
kcrhun
, mars 09 2010 05:12
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#2
Posté 09 mars 2010 - 05:16
sandman7431
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The hand cannon feels really cool and is more accurate.
#3
Posté 09 mars 2010 - 05:23
RubiconI7
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Not looking at the figures at all.
But
On Insanity, popping out of cover to try to spray bullets on to enemies is pretty hard, as the moment you are out, your shields are basically gone. However, two shots with the Carnifex will drop armor on a vorcha.
On the infiltrator, I usually use it when I deem the enemy unworthy of the Widow````
On the Adept, I switch between them as so I don't run out of ammo for the Canifex that quickly
But
On Insanity, popping out of cover to try to spray bullets on to enemies is pretty hard, as the moment you are out, your shields are basically gone. However, two shots with the Carnifex will drop armor on a vorcha.
On the infiltrator, I usually use it when I deem the enemy unworthy of the Widow````
On the Adept, I switch between them as so I don't run out of ammo for the Canifex that quickly
#4
Posté 09 mars 2010 - 05:24
Gavinthelocust
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Unless you get sniper or assault rifle training it is the most accurate thing you have as a vanguard.
#5
Posté 09 mars 2010 - 05:29
cruc1al
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You can't get the full DPS of tempest unless you're 3 meters away from the target. And that's close, considering the enemy has armor on.
WIth the hand cannon, you can snipe the target's armor down safely from ten times the distance. And I believe the DPS figure you quoted for the hand cannon is at the rate of fire at which it shoots if you just press the button down - it'll be more if you manually tap fire.
Furthermore, I find the hand cannon much more useful at close range as well, because the damage done per time out of cover is much more, even if the calculated DPS weren't that much different.
And lastly, why would you compare the unupgraded hand cannon to a Tempest and say "there would be no reason, EVER, to use the hand cannon"? That's just silly. Once you get the anti-armor upgrade, a couple of head shots at most will decimate the armor on any opponent apart from mechs and bosses, where as with the Tempest you'd have to get up close and not cover yourself.
WIth the hand cannon, you can snipe the target's armor down safely from ten times the distance. And I believe the DPS figure you quoted for the hand cannon is at the rate of fire at which it shoots if you just press the button down - it'll be more if you manually tap fire.
Furthermore, I find the hand cannon much more useful at close range as well, because the damage done per time out of cover is much more, even if the calculated DPS weren't that much different.
And lastly, why would you compare the unupgraded hand cannon to a Tempest and say "there would be no reason, EVER, to use the hand cannon"? That's just silly. Once you get the anti-armor upgrade, a couple of head shots at most will decimate the armor on any opponent apart from mechs and bosses, where as with the Tempest you'd have to get up close and not cover yourself.
Modifié par cruc1al, 09 mars 2010 - 05:31 .
#6
Posté 09 mars 2010 - 05:30
IndomitusRex
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My evidence may be anecdotal, rather than mathematical, but I cannot believe that the damage of a fully upgraded Hand Cannon doesn't trump the crap out of the Tempest against armour. With the AP and bigger crit upgrades you can tear down a Scion in no time.
#7
Guest_Maviarab_*
Posté 09 mars 2010 - 05:31
Guest_Maviarab_*
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Its one of my fave weps personally...and also more accurate if you know what your doing.
#8
Posté 09 mars 2010 - 05:32
cruc1al
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I might make a video of the anti-armor capabilities of heavy pistols VS. tempest just for evidence. Maybe 
#9
Posté 09 mars 2010 - 05:46
OniGanon
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Heavy Pistols are used over SMG when you actually need to hit your target from longer than spitting distance.
#10
Guest_Maviarab_*
Posté 09 mars 2010 - 05:46
Guest_Maviarab_*
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do what you like crucial....bet Im still just as quick with a pistol....
DPS is not everything....also personal pref is important.
Any more smart ass comments?
DPS is not everything....also personal pref is important.
Any more smart ass comments?
#11
Posté 09 mars 2010 - 05:49
kcrhun
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cruc1al wrote...
You can't get the full DPS of tempest unless you're 3 meters away from the target. And that's close, considering the enemy has armor on.
Hi cruc1al, as stated in my OP, this is going by the stats on the page. According to that, the BASE dps vs armor of the tempest is higher than the BASE dps vs armor of the hand cannon. Neither of those figures have range modifiers included (*1.25 for short range, *2 for point-blank), so I don't see how your response about only getting the full dps of the tempest at 3 meter range is relevant - in this case, we are eliminating range considerations and comparing pure dps.
cruc1al wrote...
WIth the hand cannon, you can snipe the target's armor down safely from ten times the distance. And I believe the DPS figure you quoted for the hand cannon is at the rate of fire at which it shoots if you just press the button down - it'll be more if you manually tap fire.
The dps figures here are calculated based on the respective weapons' damage per shot and rate of fire and magazine size... so I grant that you might be right here, though I have personally not witnessed any increased rate of fire from tapping the hand cannon.
cruc1al]
And lastly, why would you compare the unupgraded hand cannon to a Tempest and say "there would be no reason, EVER, to use the hand cannon"? That's just silly. Once you get the anti-armor upgrade, a couple of head shots at most will decimate the armor on any opponent apart from mechs and bosses, where as with the Tempest you'd have to get up close and not cover yourself.
Once again, I'm comparing the base, unupgraded dps vs armor of both weapons. I am not comparing the unupgraded hand cannon to an upgraded Tempest - that would be a fallacious comparison.
The AP heavy pistol upgrade is pretty handy though. But I would disagree about having to get up close and not cover yourself. I personally find that I can hit accurately with the Tempest at medium ranges by burst-firing.
#12
Posté 09 mars 2010 - 05:51
cruc1al
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Maviarab wrote...
do what you like crucial....bet Im still just as quick with a pistol....
DPS is not everything....also personal pref is important.
Any more smart ass comments?
What the **** is your problem? And what do you mean "bet I'm still just as fast with a pistol"? I meant a video showing the heavy pistol is better than Tempest. You should agree with me.
#13
Posté 09 mars 2010 - 05:53
kcrhun
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Btw cruc1al, please do go ahead and make a video comparison, if you have the time. I'm just going by what I see on the wiki page; if you can prove it wrong, then you have made your point.
#14
Posté 09 mars 2010 - 06:08
cruc1al
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[quote]kcrhun wrote...
[quote]cruc1al wrote...
You can't get the full DPS of tempest unless you're 3 meters away from the target. And that's close, considering the enemy has armor on. [/quote]
Hi cruc1al, as stated in my OP, this is going by the stats on the page. According to that, the BASE dps vs armor of the tempest is higher than the BASE dps vs armor of the hand cannon. Neither of those figures have range modifiers included (*1.25 for short range, *2 for point-blank), so I don't see how your response about only getting the full dps of the tempest at 3 meter range is relevant - in this case, we are eliminating range considerations and comparing pure dps.
[/quote]
I didn't mean range modifiers, I meant that the full DPS of the Tempest is only achievable when all bullets hit at full auto, and for that, you need to be very close to the enemy.
[quote]kcrhun wrote...[quote]cruc1al wrote...
WIth the hand cannon, you can snipe the target's armor down safely from ten times the distance. And I believe the DPS figure you quoted for the hand cannon is at the rate of fire at which it shoots if you just press the button down - it'll be more if you manually tap fire.
[/quote]
The dps figures here are calculated based on the respective weapons' damage per shot and rate of fire and magazine size... so I grant that you might be right here, though I have personally not witnessed any increased rate of fire from tapping the hand cannon.[/quote][/quote]
Coalesced.ini states the following:
RateOfFire=(X=145,Y=145) <-- assuming units in RPM
BurstRefireTime: 0.54f <-- assuming units in seconds
From RateOfFire, the min. BurstRefireTime = 60s/145RPM = 0.41 seconds/round, which is slightly faster than the normal BurstRefireTime. I tested this in-game, and found that manual tapping shoots the hand-cannon slightly faster than holding the fire button down.
[quote]kcrhun wrote...[quote]cruc1al wrote...
And lastly, why would you compare the unupgraded hand cannon to a Tempest and say "there would be no reason, EVER, to use the hand cannon"? That's just silly. Once you get the anti-armor upgrade, a couple of head shots at most will decimate the armor on any opponent apart from mechs and bosses, where as with the Tempest you'd have to get up close and not cover yourself.[/quote]
Once again, I'm comparing the base, unupgraded dps vs armor of both weapons. I am not comparing the unupgraded hand cannon to an upgraded Tempest - that would be a fallacious comparison.
The AP heavy pistol upgrade is pretty handy though. But I would disagree about having to get up close and not cover yourself. I personally find that I can hit accurately with the Tempest at medium ranges by burst-firing.
[/quote][/quote]
I didn't mean to imply you were comparing an unupgraded HP to an upgraded SMG. I meant that your concluding statement, that "why would you EVER use the heavy pistol" was an inference you could not possibly make from comparing unupgraded weapons.
As for firing at medium range with burst fire, you're better of using the hand cannon anyway, since you can't get full DPS with the Tempest due to either bad accuracy (full-auto) or having to burst fire.
[quote]cruc1al wrote...
You can't get the full DPS of tempest unless you're 3 meters away from the target. And that's close, considering the enemy has armor on. [/quote]
Hi cruc1al, as stated in my OP, this is going by the stats on the page. According to that, the BASE dps vs armor of the tempest is higher than the BASE dps vs armor of the hand cannon. Neither of those figures have range modifiers included (*1.25 for short range, *2 for point-blank), so I don't see how your response about only getting the full dps of the tempest at 3 meter range is relevant - in this case, we are eliminating range considerations and comparing pure dps.
[/quote]
I didn't mean range modifiers, I meant that the full DPS of the Tempest is only achievable when all bullets hit at full auto, and for that, you need to be very close to the enemy.
[quote]kcrhun wrote...[quote]cruc1al wrote...
WIth the hand cannon, you can snipe the target's armor down safely from ten times the distance. And I believe the DPS figure you quoted for the hand cannon is at the rate of fire at which it shoots if you just press the button down - it'll be more if you manually tap fire.
[/quote]
The dps figures here are calculated based on the respective weapons' damage per shot and rate of fire and magazine size... so I grant that you might be right here, though I have personally not witnessed any increased rate of fire from tapping the hand cannon.[/quote][/quote]
Coalesced.ini states the following:
RateOfFire=(X=145,Y=145) <-- assuming units in RPM
BurstRefireTime: 0.54f <-- assuming units in seconds
From RateOfFire, the min. BurstRefireTime = 60s/145RPM = 0.41 seconds/round, which is slightly faster than the normal BurstRefireTime. I tested this in-game, and found that manual tapping shoots the hand-cannon slightly faster than holding the fire button down.
[quote]kcrhun wrote...[quote]cruc1al wrote...
And lastly, why would you compare the unupgraded hand cannon to a Tempest and say "there would be no reason, EVER, to use the hand cannon"? That's just silly. Once you get the anti-armor upgrade, a couple of head shots at most will decimate the armor on any opponent apart from mechs and bosses, where as with the Tempest you'd have to get up close and not cover yourself.[/quote]
Once again, I'm comparing the base, unupgraded dps vs armor of both weapons. I am not comparing the unupgraded hand cannon to an upgraded Tempest - that would be a fallacious comparison.
The AP heavy pistol upgrade is pretty handy though. But I would disagree about having to get up close and not cover yourself. I personally find that I can hit accurately with the Tempest at medium ranges by burst-firing.
[/quote][/quote]
I didn't mean to imply you were comparing an unupgraded HP to an upgraded SMG. I meant that your concluding statement, that "why would you EVER use the heavy pistol" was an inference you could not possibly make from comparing unupgraded weapons.
As for firing at medium range with burst fire, you're better of using the hand cannon anyway, since you can't get full DPS with the Tempest due to either bad accuracy (full-auto) or having to burst fire.
Modifié par cruc1al, 09 mars 2010 - 06:13 .
#15
Posté 09 mars 2010 - 06:17
_Dannok1234
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Remember that the wiki page assumes you are firing nonstop for 1 min, which includes reloading and that you are not tapping your mouse button for the fastest possible ROF, which will cause the numbers to greatly favor weapons with larger clips since you do not have to reload as much.
I would generally recommend people to take that page with a truck load of salt and rather test things in game because of these flaws. For most situations in ME2 you don't care all that much for sustained damage, it's more about burst, since you are unlikely to be exposing yourself for any great length of time unless you have your enemy locked down, in which case the damage isn't all that important anyway.
Edit:
Just to show this specific case, it will take 2,06 seconds to empty the clip of the Hand Cannon and doing 512,4 damage (base damage, no bonus to armor counted etc etc)
Tempest does 31 shots in that time for 14 damage a shot, which means 445. However since it gets no bonus to armor, and the hand cannon gets 1.5 the Hand Cannons damage against armor will be 768,6 in 2.06 seconds which is 323,5 more then the tempest. If you want it in dps vs armor before reloading Carnifex 373,1 Tempest 216,04.
As you can see it's in favor of the Hand Cannon/Carnifex and not the Tempest. Also at anything further away then point blank range, you will not be able to accurately hit your target with the tempest(full auto) and a great many bullets will miss, while the Carnifex will remain very accurate and thus a much better/faster option.
2nd Edit :Argh used the wrong ROF on the hand cannon, corrected it now tho'.
I would generally recommend people to take that page with a truck load of salt and rather test things in game because of these flaws. For most situations in ME2 you don't care all that much for sustained damage, it's more about burst, since you are unlikely to be exposing yourself for any great length of time unless you have your enemy locked down, in which case the damage isn't all that important anyway.
Edit:
Just to show this specific case, it will take 2,06 seconds to empty the clip of the Hand Cannon and doing 512,4 damage (base damage, no bonus to armor counted etc etc)
Tempest does 31 shots in that time for 14 damage a shot, which means 445. However since it gets no bonus to armor, and the hand cannon gets 1.5 the Hand Cannons damage against armor will be 768,6 in 2.06 seconds which is 323,5 more then the tempest. If you want it in dps vs armor before reloading Carnifex 373,1 Tempest 216,04.
As you can see it's in favor of the Hand Cannon/Carnifex and not the Tempest. Also at anything further away then point blank range, you will not be able to accurately hit your target with the tempest(full auto) and a great many bullets will miss, while the Carnifex will remain very accurate and thus a much better/faster option.
2nd Edit :Argh used the wrong ROF on the hand cannon, corrected it now tho'.
Modifié par Dannok1234, 09 mars 2010 - 06:38 .
#16
Posté 09 mars 2010 - 06:42
rabbitchannel
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So you can tap the HP for consecutive, accurate headshots instead of spraying the SMG in the general head area.
#17
Posté 09 mars 2010 - 08:24
SmilingMirror
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I like to use my Carnifex inbetween melee blows like a shotgun since im stuck with an assault rifle. its also more accurate over long distances and has a high damage meaning its more effective at taking down enemies in one shot.
#18
Posté 09 mars 2010 - 08:25
Darnalak
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As an avid Tempest bullet sprayer, I still find the Carnifex invaluable as a Sentinel. Sniping while running is a very handy ability, namely against charging Krogan, or harbinger for that matter.
#19
Posté 09 mars 2010 - 08:36
Atmosfear3
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Pretty sure theres absolutely no comparison between tempest and carnifex when it comes to taking down armor both in practice and in theory.
#20
Posté 09 mars 2010 - 08:39
SmilingMirror
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SMG is pretty beast. It kills about as fast as anything else against armor as long as your up close and have incendiary.
Modifié par SmilingMirror, 09 mars 2010 - 09:14 .
#21
Posté 09 mars 2010 - 08:49
Neonick27
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On my vanguard I use shotguns for point-blank enemies (usually after charging), SMG's for mid range enemies, and the hand cannon on long range stuff.
The critical hit is pretty nice since it drops armor quickly so I can charge in and finish the job.
The critical hit is pretty nice since it drops armor quickly so I can charge in and finish the job.
#22
Guest_Maviarab_*
Posté 09 mars 2010 - 08:51
Guest_Maviarab_*
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Ahhh then my apologies then Crucial....thought you were refering to the tempest being better...
#23
Posté 09 mars 2010 - 08:54
GiroX-
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I run out of ammo on my SMG with my Engineer....
#24
Posté 09 mars 2010 - 08:56
Chaos-fusion
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I loved my heavy pistol with YMIR mechs on insanity. I certainly wasn't going to waste sniper ammo on them when I don't need to.
#25
Posté 09 mars 2010 - 09:18
JaegerBane
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There's also an issue that shotguns have very very short effective ranges.... if you need to put some damage on a target in single shots (diving from cover etc) and the target isn't standing over you, the hand cannon is your piece.
Unless you want to go Eviscerator, but I can't stand the fire rate on it. I prefer my Carnifex.
Unless you want to go Eviscerator, but I can't stand the fire rate on it. I prefer my Carnifex.
