290 réponses à ce sujet

[Average Gatsby]

Seems like right now, I'll probably go with hardened over heightened because I can get off 2 shots with the Evi using hardened, but I can only get off one using heightend. Also I'm going to be posting a commando video soon. Plenty of shotgun action but I pretty much used all weapons evenly.

[swk3000]

The thing about Hardened vs. Heightened is that it depends on what weapon you're using. Weapons with a fast rate of fire (such as the Assault Rifle) are better off with Hardened, as you can get more shots off while AR is active. With single-shot weapons such as the Sniper Rifle, on the other hand, Heightened provides the better boost, as you can only get a single shot off anyway.



I'd give an example, but I've got to get to work. I'll post it when I get home, though.

[Athenau]

If you pop a rush and don't kill them before they manage to shoot back or duck into cover, then how exactly did the damage bonus help?

It doesn't (well apart from them having less health before they start to shoot or get out of cover again).  But every time it does net you a kill that's directly because you're doing more damage in a shorter amount of (game) time. That was my point.  Viewing adrenaline rush as only damage mitigation doesn't make sense because the skill allows you get kills that you otherwise wouldn't have even when you aren't taking damage.  That damage boost is providing a direct offensive advantage.

Anyway, Gatsby, please don't pick the Widow for your collector ship weapon. Do the Revenant or Claymore, we have enough Widow vids already.

Modifié par Athenau, 11 mars 2010 - 05:26 .

[sandman7431]

bevey2176 wrote...

The Revenant for me seems like the only choice for a soldier I know other people could choose different things but this weapon is exclusive to soldiers only in the whole game and it does not disappoint it has an insane amount of damage and that combined with AR is really where the soldier shines imo. I have been able to clear rooms where harbringer is suppose to spawn and does not with the Revenant and if you are playing a soldier for the first time I think you would miss out if you did not choose the Revenant I know the widow is a close 2nd however the viper does a nice job of filling its spot and I believe the Evi is superior to the claymore hands down. Just my 2 cents on soldiers weapon choice. Viper+Evi+Revenant is imo the strongest combo of weapons for the soldier for any instance.

Agreed.  In terms of pure offenseive prowess, this combo is the way to go.  In terms of survivability, the widow/vindi/evi combo is king.

[sandman7431]

Average Gatsby wrote...

Seems like right now, I'll probably go with hardened over heightened because I can get off 2 shots with the Evi using hardened, but I can only get off one using heightend. Also I'm going to be posting a commando video soon. Plenty of shotgun action but I pretty much used all weapons evenly.

Sounds like you're leaning towards the LMG.  No?

[Average Gatsby]

sandman7431 wrote...

Average Gatsby wrote...

Seems like right now, I'll probably go with hardened over heightened because I can get off 2 shots with the Evi using hardened, but I can only get off one using heightend. Also I'm going to be posting a commando video soon. Plenty of shotgun action but I pretty much used all weapons evenly.

Sounds like you're leaning towards the LMG.  No?

All I can say is that right now, the only lean I have is simply away from the widow. This is not, I repeat, not at all because I somehow think its a bad choice (it isn't) or that I don't like the weapon. I'm simply very experienced with sniping and the widow as I have done both a hardcore and some of a NG+ insanity run with my infiltrator and the widow. On the collector ship, I plan on demonstrating and commenting on each weapon, but I'm not going to make any sort of recommendation as to one being better than the other.

Also new blog entry up: http://social.biowar...0596/blog/3214/

i'm going to try to update the OP with some of the info and maybe a build or two that I've seen around in the forums. I don't have my build entirely planned out yet.

[sandman7431]

Average Gatsby wrote...

sandman7431 wrote...

Average Gatsby wrote...

Seems like right now, I'll probably go with hardened over heightened because I can get off 2 shots with the Evi using hardened, but I can only get off one using heightend. Also I'm going to be posting a commando video soon. Plenty of shotgun action but I pretty much used all weapons evenly.

Sounds like you're leaning towards the LMG.  No?

All I can say is that right now, the only lean I have is simply away from the widow. This is not, I repeat, not at all because I somehow think its a bad choice (it isn't) or that I don't like the weapon. I'm simply very experienced with sniping and the widow as I have done both a hardcore and some of a NG+ insanity run with my infiltrator and the widow. On the collector ship, I plan on demonstrating and commenting on each weapon, but I'm not going to make any sort of recommendation as to one being better than the other.

Also new blog entry up: http://social.biowar...0596/blog/3214/

i'm going to try to update the OP with some of the info and maybe a build or two that I've seen around in the forums. I don't have my build entirely planned out yet.

The blog was an interesting read.  I like what you're going for.  I've played the soldier through twice on insanity (once as a sniper-taking the widow and once as a gunner with the LMG).  Based solely on what you've described, I'd say your ideal might be the LMG Commando with either AR specialty.  If you really want to focus on fighting on the inside, hardened might be a bit better.  You'll do the same amount of damage and absorb far less.  Of course if you're going to specialize with the claymore, heightened gives you that speed you really need to close in on and execute enemies.  Looking forward to it.

[sandman7431]

double

Modifié par sandman7431, 11 mars 2010 - 06:35 .

[rumination888]

Athenau wrote...

It doesn't (well apart from them having less health before they start to shoot or get out of cover again).  But every time it does net you a kill that's directly because you're doing more damage in a shorter amount of (game) time. That was my point.  Viewing adrenaline rush as only damage mitigation doesn't make sense because the skill allows you get kills that you otherwise wouldn't have even when you aren't taking damage.  That damage boost is providing a direct offensive advantage.

If you are unable to kill an enemy during the rush, then you would still take less damage in real-time than if you hadn't used AR.
If you use 'rush to get from point A to point B, then you would still take less damage in real-time than if you hadn't used AR.
If you don't use AR, would would happen to your DPS in real-time?

My point is that the damage boost is a compensation for the reduced RoF.

Modifié par rumination888, 11 mars 2010 - 06:33 .

[TheUnusualSuspect]

I'm not sure I understand why some of you guys are saying that AR does no more damage.

If you're talking about the time by the clock on the wall in your house, or the rare in-game countdown timer (same thing as your wall clock really), then yes, the pure damage dealt is equal. Seriously though, how often are we playing with a real time clock against us? Once only I think, being the end of Legion's loyalty mission.

Why are we talking about real-time damage per second like it's a major issue/drawback to AR then? If the majority of the game operated under timers, sure, it'd be a valid point. Not so in a game that has a single generous 3 minute timer on a single mission though,

Alternately, take heightened AR, and the your damage per real-time second is higher, period.

Modifié par TheUnusualSuspect, 11 mars 2010 - 08:59 .

[Jaster Shepard]

TheUnusualSuspect wrote...

I'm not sure I understand why some of you guys are saying that AR does no more damage.

If you're talking about the time by the clock on the wall in your house, or the rare in-game countdown timer (same thing as your wall clock really), then yes, the pure damage dealt is equal. Seriously though, how often are we playing with a real time clock against us? Once only I think, being the end of Legion's loyalty mission.

Why are we talking about real-time damage per second like it's a major issue/drawback to AR then? If the majority of the game operated under timers, sure, it'd be a valid point. Not so in a game that has a single generous 3 minute timer on a single mission though,

Alternately, take heightened AR, and the your damage per real-time second is higher, period.

You want more damage per second so that you have to use less ammo. That was said in the post just before yours.

[TheUnusualSuspect]

Jaster Shepard wrote...

You want more damage per second so that you have to use less ammo. That was said in the post just before yours.

I agree.  I was referring to the posts earlier in this thread.  Maybe I just came along too late...

Modifié par TheUnusualSuspect, 11 mars 2010 - 09:13 .

[Kaorunandrak]

Heres my build that I'm working on for the older soldier+bonus talent thread Crackseed started hope it helps you out. 2 play throughs on insane a new game+ version and regular New game version only one death between the both playthroughs due to my 2 year old daughter haveing a stomach flu.

Powers
Heightened Adrenaline Rush XXXX (Ive tried both and just seem to like this one better

Concusive Shot X (even with just one slot it comes in handy on several occasions)

Squad Disrupter Rounds XXXX (Giveing your squad this ammo buff helps on several levels allowing them to reduce damage for you and helps survive ability alot)

Squad Incendiary Rounds XXXX (See above)

Cryo rounds (Just can't find a situation where this ammo helps at all don't get me wrong its fun as hell when it works)

Commando XXXX (Basicly because it has more damage and I dont find the power duration bonus  of shocktrooper to help all that much either one works IMHO)

Tungsten Rounds XXXX (Incredible damage and when paired with the Revanant awe inspiring the other ammos are for your squad this ammo is for you and you alone)

Weapons
Revanant Light Machine Gun (The gun is a beast it is my main gun and I am surgical with this monster upgrades or no. When paired with Tungsten rounds nothing can stand up to you. You can make it even more awesome by getting the assualt rifle mod #6 by going along with Zaeeds quest for revenge and letting the workers die. Honestly even if your a pure paragon its worth the sacrifice.)

Viper Sniper Rifle (Semi automatic, a plethora of rounds, and very minor recoil for a sniper. btw that semi auto really gets nuts if you super smash the trigger great for striping shields/barriers/armor off of problamatic targets at extremly long range or even over loading weapons on heavily entrenched targets as well)

Eviscerator Shotgun (This gun for me really removes the need for any of the other shotguns. Plenty of rounds, plenty of damage, and plenty of range.)

Carniflex Handcannon (Not as much ammo as the other handgun but plenty of stopping power and very easy to handle)

Arc Projector (Extremely good deffense stripper and great crowd control the damage is not half bad either my new favorite heavy weapon easily earning its keep in my KIT)

Squad
Miranda (All around great character especially when it comes to slotting, She is a staple of my team on every mission. For skill load out I recommend Heavy Overload 4 and Heavy Warp 4 along with Cerberus Leader 4 to really maximize squad effectiveness. Tempest SubMachine Gun as her weapon of choice.)

Zaeed ( Normally I choose Garrus until Legion because he is awesome to me but honestly Zaeed fills the role for this team the best until Legion. He brings the same weapons as Garrus but also bring his unique Loyalty power.For skill load out I recommend Heavy Concussive Shot 4 and Heavy Inferno Grenade 4 along with Mercenary Warlord 4 to really maximize his damage output. Mantis Sniper Rifle as his main weapon of choice with the Vindicator Battle Rifle as back up for extreme situations)

Legion (Easily replaces Zaeed or Garrus or anyone else IMHO once you get him. He has a great skill set access to devestating weaponry and is just plain cool. For skill load out I recommend AI Hacking 2 and Explosive Drone 4 along with Geth Assasin 4 to really maximize his damage output. Geth Shield Boost 3 will round out his skills and give him a fair amount of staying power even on insane. Widow Anti Material Rifle as his main weapon of choice PERIOD. He is extremly acurate with the weapon and he does amazing damage with it.

Reasoning for the build
There will probbally be questions with the ammo choices when some one looks at this build and I'll explain to you why I made the 3 ammo choices. First of all both squad ammo are not for you they are for your squad members usage. At the start of a mission you fire up which ever ammo type will benfit you the most. For example the reqruit Jack mission you should turn on your Squad Disrupter ammo so that way your team will be tearing through shields and the Mechs the blue suns use on this mission. But also they will be Overloading the weapons of the Mercs as soon as those shields do drop adding to your over all survival and allowing you to kill with impunity. The same is true for the Squad Inferno rounds and missions involving Vorcha/Krogan except instead of overloading weapons your destroy their armor/regen and set them on fire keeping them from attacking as well.

Now this is where the Tungsten ammo comes in this allows you to maximize your own personal damage while your team is destroying shields/halting regen with the squad based ammo types. You will be destroying armor and inflicting massive damage to the now helpless enemies.Especially if you happen to be using the Revanant as your main gun, it already does a respectable amount of damage to all forms of deffense the Tungsten rounds just ensure what appears(IMHO) the toughest part of the enemy*ARMOR* bar disappears and so does their health bar.

Now you can substitute Warp Ammo instead but honestly I haven't found barriers to be any problem outside of Praetorians but that is why we have Heavy warp and Heavy concussive shot on the team along with the Revanant in our hands. Heavy Warp Ammos 50% damage just can not compare to the 70% damage of Tungsten  rounds where it matters most to me when I'm fighting and thats versus Armor and Health.


Like I said this build has been highly fun and effective on Insane, just make sure to make use of your squad give them quick commands/orders with the d-pad and make them focus on one enemy at a time by telling them what targets to attack with the d-pad. The d-pad does more then tell them to use their best power verus that enemyor take cover.

Anyways hope you like this and you guys guys get some use out of it and have as much fun as me with it.

Modifié par Kaorunandrak, 11 mars 2010 - 09:41 .

[Athenau]

If you are unable to kill an enemy during the rush, then you would still take less damage in real-time than if you hadn't used AR.
If you use 'rush to get from point A to point B, then you would still take less damage in real-time than if you hadn't used AR.

Taking less damage in "real time" doesn't matter. If all rush did was slow down time by 50% you'd take less damage in real time but it wouldn't help your survivability at all.

Rush doesn't improve your movement speed in "real time". Yet anyone can see that moving around in rush gives you a huge advantage as far as getting from place to place while not getting shot up. Think about why that is.

If you measure rush by wall clock metrics all it is a glorified aim assist.

If you don't use AR, would would happen to your DPS in real-time?

We're going in circles. I'm not talking about real-time dps. I said that in my first post. The concept of "real-time" dps is pointless applied to rush. When you're playing the soldier, you aren't racing a timer in the wall, or (in the vast majority of missions) a timer in the game.

Again. If AR is only a damage mitigation skill, then how is it possible for it to improve your offense even in scenarios when you aren't taking damage?

 My point is that the damage boost is a compensation for the reduced RoF.

Well it may be one reason, though at this point we're speculating about what the devs intended rather than what the skill actually does.  But it's undeniable that the damage bonus gives you a pretty huge offensive advantage under rush, even though your real time dps goes _down_ in most circumstances.

Modifié par Athenau, 11 mars 2010 - 11:46 .

[swk3000]

swk3000 wrote...

The thing about Hardened vs. Heightened is that it depends on what weapon you're using. Weapons with a fast rate of fire (such as the Assault Rifle) are better off with Hardened, as you can get more shots off while AR is active. With single-shot weapons such as the Sniper Rifle, on the other hand, Heightened provides the better boost, as you can only get a single shot off anyway.

I'd give an example, but I've got to get to work. I'll post it when I get home, though.

+------------------------------------+
| WALL OF TEXT INBOUND |
+------------------------------------+
I said I'd post an example, and here it is. To keep the math easy, I'm going to use a made-up Assault Rifle. This particular weapon fires 10 shots in 5 seconds without Adrenaline Rush, and does 100 damage per hit. Obscenely powerful, yes, but it will allow me to do the math in my head instead of having to pull out a calculator. This means that over 5 seconds, and without Adrenaline Rush, this weapon puts out 1000 damage.

Now, under Hardened Adrenaline Rush (and the lower levels, as well), because time is slowed by 50%, you only get 5 shots off. However, each shot does double damage, so your damage output remains at 1000 damage over 5 seconds.

With Heightened Adrenaline Rush, time is slowed by 70%. This means that in those 5 seconds, you only get 3 shots off instead of 5. However, each shot does 2.4 times it's normal damage. This gives you 3 shots of 240 damage each, for a grand total of 720 damage. In other words, you've actually lost damage output during those 5 seconds because time has been slowed down too much.

Now, most of you may look at this and say, 'Well, then, the math proves that Hardened is better than Heightened' and call it good. Unfortunately, it's not that simple. The above scenario remains true for fast-firing weapons, which means most of your Assault Rifles, the Predator Heavy Pistol, and the Viper Sniper rifle. However, for slower-firing weapons like the Hand Cannon, the Vindicator, the Mantis, and the Widow, you get a better damage boost out of Heightened. These weapons tend to fire one or two shots (or bursts, in the case of the Vindicator), then have to pause before they can fire again. This slower rate of fire means they get fewer shots off in the same time, so you're less likely to get more than one or two shots off before Adrenaline Rush is gone. Therefore, you might as well boost the damage of the one shot you're guaranteed to get as much as possible.

Now, if you look at a Soldier's weapons, they have 5 different weapons. During the first part of the game (up to and including Horizon), a Soldier will generally have all slow weapons (Hand Cannon, Mantis, Eviscerator, and Vindicator). You pick up one fast-firing weapon during the Assassin Dossier mission (the Viper), and one during the Disabled Collector Ship section (the Revenant). This means you end the game with an even split between fast and slow weapons, but for the majority of the game, you actually have slower weapons.

Therefore, I'd suggest taking Heightened Adrenaline Rush during the early portions of the game, then consider what your play-style is. If you use the slower weapons more, stay with Heightened. If you find yourself sticking with the Revenant and the Viper, then consider re-speccing to take Hardened.

+-----------------------------+
| END WALL OF TEXT |
+-----------------------------+

[rumination888]

You can only get 2 Vindicator shots with Heightened. Normal or Hardened gets you 4. Never bothered to test the Carnifex.

[swk3000]

Fair enough. I will admit to not doing in-depth testing, so I did make some assumptions. From the sound of it, the Vindicator should be lumped in with the rest of the Assault Rifles as a fast-firing weapon.

Thanks for the correction.

EDIT: I should probably point out that my entire post is merely based on the math. I didn't actually do any solid testing. If people feel like deriding me for it, so be it. The math is sound.

Modifié par swk3000, 11 mars 2010 - 03:23 .

[rumination888]

Oh I agree the math is sound, I wasn't deriding you for it. I was just pointing out that the Vindicator actually loses DPS with Heightened.

[swk3000]

I'm sorry. I wasn't trying to say you were deriding me. The edit was directed at everyone in general, not you specifically. I didn't take your response as deriding me at all. Sorry for the confusion.

[vranasm2]

As usual you are my motivation for something new Gatsby, so I went today and started my first Insanity run with Soldier. So far it's a lot of fun. I am trying "new" approach, trying to use all 3 weapons (pistol, AR, sniper), did only Mordin recruitment today, but was easy enough :-) Sniping those heavy bastards.

I got Armor Piercing Ammo though, so that's maybe kind of 'cheat'.



Btw I would be interrested how is everyone using AR with Aim? For me it's a lot easier (especially with Sniper) to actually Aim first, then quickly press keyboard to fire AR and then snipe with mouse, sometimes I even do it almost simultaneously. The other approach first fire AR, then aim is giving me not good result, I am not quick enough with mouse ;-).

I found out I used AR mostly after i started to fire etc. not the other way around, start AR, then just looking for targets. It seems to me easier that way.

[Average Gatsby]

 So I've updated the OP with Kaorunandrak's build and swk3000's notes on adrenaline rush. I cut out some stuff in an attempt to save as much space as possible, but I will always provide links to the original posting or blog at the end of any section I edit. If you don't like the edits, let me know and I can change it.

Also, I now have a video to supplement my Commando 201 blog entry: Commando Soldier 201 video

I really like the way this thread is going btw.

[swk3000]

Just read through your edit. No problems with it.

[Athenau]

A while back I posted a numerical comparison of heightened vs hardened adrenaline rush:



http://social.biowar...8/index/1351194



It should provide a decent starting point for evaluating their relative merits.