249 réponses à ce sujet

[FlintlockJazz]

superimposed wrote...

FlintlockJazz wrote...

Christ people, lets take a step back and compare this to something else.

In Big Trouble in Little China, Jack is the main character, yet not only does his friend (the 'sidekick') do more than him, he is actually rather incompetent and fails to make as much an impact. Yet he is still the main character, why? Because it's told from his point of view. Liara may have helped much in the games, but that does not make her a 'leading heronine', on the contrary Ash has more involvement in the story (both living and dying) than she does, getting more screentime.

Now, Liara may be the main character in a spin off comic book series but that does not make her any more important in the main story of the game, its a side story, and her role in ME2 has been relegated to questgiver, which is not the role of a leading star regardless how you want it. Its like when you get an episode of Star Trek from Data's point of view: he's the main character of the episode but he's still not one of the leading men in the show.

Really? Ash plays a bigger role?

I spoke to her on Eden Prime, and Virmire. Not exactly a big role, and contributed nothing to the progression of the story but for the occasional stuck-up remark because I couldn't send her back to the kitchen.

As for Big Trouble in Little China, that's called a "parody". Jack is useless because that's where humour is derived from.
But he also kills the villain in the end anyway, which is why he's the hero. The story told from his point of view makes him the 'lead' or the 'protagonist' but not the hero.

She is on Eden Prime where she fights alongside you and activates the beacon when playing manShep, faces the council with you both when you're trying to convince them about Saren's guilt, and is present when the council grounds you if she survives whereas if she dies her death is an important aspect to help the impact f the story (and if you were romancing her at the time it provides an even bigger impact on the character story).

Liara on the other hand gets rescued (not very capable there), goes 'Jiggery jiggery doo!' with your brain, and then shouts out "Ilos!!!!" as her involvement in ME1.  She's a Tali with a LI option.

And yes, I'm aware BTIC is a parody, but it helps show that competence =/= leading character.  You all seem to be going "Ah but she does this and that!" but its irrelevant.  In ME2 Aria has more of a role than Liara, but that still doesn't make her a leading character.  While I'm not particularly keen on the idea, the leading female character in ME2 is clearly Miranda.

[kraidy1117]

Nozybidaj wrote...

Wow, a new Liara hate thread in disguise as a tali love thread that isn't part of the main Tali love thread where it belongs. I understand Tali fan's are jealous because Liara is as close to "canon" love interest as there is out of all the LI's, but come on, really?

You guys got what you wanted, Tali is a LI in ME2 and they even wrote Liara completely out of the game to give it to you. Is it really necessary to rub it in everyone's face?

No its not. there is no such thing as canon in ME. Get over it, not everyone like Liara.

[Knoll Argonar]

Bleh, I just was stating, as I think OP was doing, that Tali as a character had a lot of LEVEL UP during all ME, and speacially in ME2 she's quite a presence if you are willing to recruit her: the first old char to appear, the only one that actually cares for shepard, her logs in Haestrom, etc.

I wouldn't say "oh, she can get killed, she's not a heroine hu hu" because we just don't know how ME3 will be. Of course, plot-wise, Liara has quite a more implication in the trilogy for the moment being, just as much as Miranda, in fact.

Modifié par Knoll Argonar, 10 mars 2010 - 03:32 .

[jklinders]

IoCaster wrote...

bobobo878 wrote...

Just found the site shes Operations Chief now, forgot where I read otherwise.

She was a gunnery chief petty officer in ME1. She is an operations chief petty officer in ME2. She is still a non-commissioned officer. 

Kaiden was promoted from Lieutenant to Lt.Commander which is one level up from ME1. I'm making an assumption about this because otherwise it would be two levels up to a full Commander in two years. It's a video game so anything is possible but that would be unusual.

I thought Kaidan was an Operations Commander in ME2, That would be one step above Shepard before he became a spectre. technically Shepard has had no Alliance rank since. Really rank does not come into it. He does not answer to anyone at all at the end of ME2. Maybe in ME3 Shep will be a true Spectre again, which simply means answering only to the council.

[Nozybidaj]

Lets see. Liara is the only LI that can romance Shep regardless of gender. She is vital to the story of ME1, without her there is no ME2. She has her own comic and in a few months I expect she will have her own expansion pack. She is already said to have an "important" role in ME3 which none of the other LI's can have since they can all die. I even suspect that if they do spinoffs set in the future after the trilogy is over it will involve Liara as well since she is the only one that would still be alive in a couple hundred years.



Yeah, I think it is pretty obvious who the "main heroine" is.

[Barquiel]

Knoll Argonar wrote...

Bleh, I just was stating, as I think OP was doing, that Tali as a character had a lot of LEVEL UP during all ME, and speacially in ME2 she's quite a presence if you are willing to recruit her: the first old char to appear, the only one that actually cares for shepard, her logs in Haestrom, etc.

After the Normandy was destroyed...
Liara recovered Shepards body
Tali recovered geth samples

...but Tali is the only one who cares for Shepard??

[epoch_]

If only there were some way to you know, look somewhere for the answers. LIke, some sort of page... with... information on it?





oh right
http://masseffect.wi...i/Kaidan_Alenko



"Suffering from survivor's guilt at the loss of his ship and his commanding officer, Kaidan remained in the Systems Alliance, eventually coming to terms with his pain. Over time he was promoted to Staff Commander. "

[Nastrod]

Sky Shadowing wrote...

Nastrod wrote...

Nozybidaj wrote...

Wow, a new Liara hate thread in disguise as a tali love thread that isn't part of the main Tali love thread where it belongs. I understand Tali fan's are jealous because Liara is as close to "canon" love interest as there is out of all the LI's, but come on, really?

You guys got what you wanted, Tali is a LI in ME2 and they even wrote Liara completely out of the game to give it to you. Is it really necessary to rub it in everyone's face?

That is another point. If Tali is SO VERY important to the story why was she not a LI in ME1? Bioware never considered her as a LI for ME1 and they have said it before but they just did it for the fans. If Tali is the "main heroine " why did it take fans asking for her to become a LI for it to happen? Bioware writes the story so they know where it is headed and at first saw no reason for her to be a love for Shep.


Then again Liara is the only LI squad member that can be a LI for male or female Shepard so no matter what she can be a part of Sheps story.

Not true. Tali was intended to be  a LI but Bioware took her out because they didn't think people would like romancing a girl with "chicken-feet". They were terribly, terribly wrong and fixed their mistake in ME2.

I can't remember where the proof is, but I'm sure somebody can be along in a moment to supply it.

IMO, there is no "main heroine" of the story. Liara has a minimal role in ME2, and she's the only squadmate (INCLUDING Shepard) who is guaranteed to survive through to ME3 (though we know Shepard's death isn't canon).

I see whoever the player chooses as his "one true love" out of the 2 or 3 LIs (ME3 might introduce a new one) in the game as being the "main heroine" in the series.

In the end, let's face it- every one of them are cast members, characters to be used by the story and dropped as fit. Liara was not a part of the story in ME2, apart from a small appearance and a few low missions. Ashley could be dead, and just has a cameo (with hints of a major role to play in ME3 if she's a love interest). If she's the LI, she's a heroine. It's up to the player to determine which one lives and which one dies (I would be surprised if ME3 didn't allow every possible squadmate to die).

Every character is equally important. No character is MORE important.

In this interview they talk about the the LI situation http://www.giantbomb...?podcast_id=138
it is at the 24:00 mark. Tali was never ment to be a LI but with Liara they knew from the start and she was designed that way.

[FlintlockJazz]

jklinders wrote...

IoCaster wrote...

bobobo878 wrote...

Just found the site shes Operations Chief now, forgot where I read otherwise.

She was a gunnery chief petty officer in ME1. She is an operations chief petty officer in ME2. She is still a non-commissioned officer. 

Kaiden was promoted from Lieutenant to Lt.Commander which is one level up from ME1. I'm making an assumption about this because otherwise it would be two levels up to a full Commander in two years. It's a video game so anything is possible but that would be unusual.

I thought Kaidan was an Operations Commander in ME2, That would be one step above Shepard before he became a spectre. technically Shepard has had no Alliance rank since. Really rank does not come into it. He does not answer to anyone at all at the end of ME2. Maybe in ME3 Shep will be a true Spectre again, which simply means answering only to the council.

I don't believe his specific rank is mentioned, he is just refered to as Commander.  From what is known of the command structure of the Systems Alliance I don't think there is a 'Operations' Commander anyway, there is a Staff Commander and the Lt. Commander ranks.  You may be getting it mixed up with Ash's new rank of Operations Chief (promotion from Gunnery Chief).

[Knoll Argonar]

Barquiel wrote...

Knoll Argonar wrote...

Bleh, I just was stating, as I think OP was doing, that Tali as a character had a lot of LEVEL UP during all ME, and speacially in ME2 she's quite a presence if you are willing to recruit her: the first old char to appear, the only one that actually cares for shepard, her logs in Haestrom, etc.

After the Normandy was destroyed...
Liara recovered Shepards body
Tali recovered geth samples

...but Tali is the only one who cares for Shepard??

in game? yes.

At least you count that "oh I couldn't let you go" line after you hack for her half nos Astra.

[epoch_]

Knoll Argonar wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

Knoll Argonar wrote...

Bleh, I just was stating, as I think OP was doing, that Tali as a character had a lot of LEVEL UP during all ME, and speacially in ME2 she's quite a presence if you are willing to recruit her: the first old char to appear, the only one that actually cares for shepard, her logs in Haestrom, etc.

After the Normandy was destroyed...
Liara recovered Shepards body
Tali recovered geth samples

...but Tali is the only one who cares for Shepard??

in game? yes.

Oh God, you're an idiot.

[jtav]

Can I ask something? Why is there such a conflation of a character's romance and their actual plot significance? They're two separate issues.

For the record:

1. Liara

2. Miranda

3. Ashley

4. Tali (could move to #2 if she has a big role in the quarian-geth subplot)

[Knoll Argonar]

epoch_ wrote...

Knoll Argonar wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

Knoll Argonar wrote...

Bleh, I just was stating, as I think OP was doing, that Tali as a character had a lot of LEVEL UP during all ME, and speacially in ME2 she's quite a presence if you are willing to recruit her: the first old char to appear, the only one that actually cares for shepard, her logs in Haestrom, etc.

After the Normandy was destroyed...
Liara recovered Shepards body
Tali recovered geth samples

...but Tali is the only one who cares for Shepard??

in game? yes.

Oh God, you're an idiot.

Thanks =)

Anyway, regardless of that one, I think I made my point. It's about character progression OP was talking about I believe.

[FlintlockJazz]

epoch_ wrote...

If only there were some way to you know, look somewhere for the answers. LIke, some sort of page... with... information on it?





oh right
http://masseffect.wi...i/Kaidan_Alenko



"Suffering from survivor's guilt at the loss of his ship and his commanding officer, Kaidan remained in the Systems Alliance, eventually coming to terms with his pain. Over time he was promoted to Staff Commander. "

I'd like to know where they got that information from, since I haven't found any reference ingame for his rank other than that he is Commander.  Not saying it isn't true, but I would like to know how people find out these things.

[Rodriguer2000]

the op never talked about that he just mentioned how tali was some how a bigger love interest and his points were all opinion based

[Knoll Argonar]

Rodriguer2000 wrote...

the op never talked about that he just mentioned how tali was some how a bigger love interest and his points were all opinion based

Exactly!

All these Liara-hard-lovers are just exceeding the objective of the topic.

[apotheosic]

Tali gets the data that incriminates saren and gets you on the long path to the conduit. liara helps you decrypt your visions and aids in your resurrection. miranda aids in your resurrection.and without ashley, maleshep would never have had the prothean vision in the first place.

everyone is important (except samara). there is no "main" heroine.

take a single one of those characters out of the picture and shepard would be long dead, either from being spaced by the collector ship, or from not stopping sovereign.

[FlintlockJazz]

jtav wrote...

Can I ask something? Why is there such a conflation of a character's romance and their actual plot significance? They're two separate issues.

Because people like to prove that their viewpoint is the superior one, thereby validating their own existence.  Whether people realise they are doing it or not, its one of the primary motivaters of humanity, the desire to know whether you are right to believe in this or that and for absolute answers.

[epoch_]

Knoll Argonar wrote...

epoch_ wrote...

Knoll Argonar wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

Knoll Argonar wrote...

Bleh, I just was stating, as I think OP was doing, that Tali as a character had a lot of LEVEL UP during all ME, and speacially in ME2 she's quite a presence if you are willing to recruit her: the first old char to appear, the only one that actually cares for shepard, her logs in Haestrom, etc.

After the Normandy was destroyed...
Liara recovered Shepards body
Tali recovered geth samples

...but Tali is the only one who cares for Shepard??

in game? yes.

Oh God, you're an idiot.

Thanks =)

Anyway, regardless of that one, I think I made my point. It's about character progression OP was talking about I believe.

Every single character has shown character evolution. I even like all the love interests, but saying one is somehow better that the others just sounds stupid. Its all a matter of tastes. Thats why there are so many options.

Modifié par epoch_, 10 mars 2010 - 04:04 .

[SkywardDescent]

There is no canon main heroine (unless you play a female shepard >_>).

[epoch_]

Darht Jayder wrote...

crimsontotem wrote...

Many fans have debated about this topic for such a long time and it is still a one of hot issues. But juding by the flow of the storyline of the game... Let's face it... It's Tali.

Why? Here's evidence...

1. Tali has been with Shepard in every series (and most likely in the third one)

2. She was in 'love' with him ever since they met in the Citadel (thanks for the typo)

3. Unlike other heroines in any Mas Effect series... she is the only one who has a love scene theme song coming in when She and Shepard is sharing their feeling (not a sex scene)

4. Dat Ass...

Most of these reasons are not very compelling as far as making your main statement true.  Especially point #4.  How does having a theme song equate to heroism?  There was no indication in ME1 that Tali loved Shepard at all.  As for point 1...who cares.??

He's obviously implying that Garrus is the canon heroine.

[jlb524]

I'm glad that's just for a male Shepard b/c for my FemShep, the main heroine (besides herself) is Liara.