156 réponses à ce sujet

[Daerog]

Ju-0n wrote...

*snip*

HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHA!!!!

Ok, I'm done, that was a great laugh, have a nice day!

Modifié par DaerogTheDhampir, 15 mai 2010 - 09:49 .

[VampireCommando]

I think pay is irrelevent why you pour your heart and soul into a project for something like 2 years, you want to know that it appriciated, also it is nice to recive a thanks for doing something rom the people your doing it for, i mean seriously was you brought up with no manners or something, how many times to you say thanks a checkout in a supermarket to the person on the till for simply doing there job, or to police officers for protecting people, you do it because it is god maners and because it lets people know that you appriciate what there doing.

[Ziggy]

[quote]Ju-0n wrote...
[quote]Stanley Woo wrote...
It is a favour. We are under no obligation to provide post-release patches. I believe the EULA for most, if not all games states something to the effect of the product being released "as-is" and the software having no warranty in and of itself. I seem to remember reading that, so please correct me if I'm wrong. Any warranty included in game purchases relates directly to the physical media on which the game is printed.[/quote]
Fine. I will never ever buy another BW game again. I'll get them second hand and make sure I do you no favours by giving you my money for faulty products! Shameless, absolutely shameless. Thank the gods for developers like Relic and Gearbox who actually understand customer service and prividing a complete game with patches. [I respectfully disagree with you.][/quote]

That is pretty bad. Not deserving to die bad but still.
They charge a lot for these games, I think we should be able to expect that they work properly and, if they don't, that they will be fixed asap.



[quote edited]

Modifié par Stanley Woo, 15 mai 2010 - 05:13 .

[Jonp382]

David Gaider did mention that they're working on another patch for DA:O. No need to get upset.

[Ziggy]

Jonp382 wrote...
David Gaider did mention that they're working on another patch for DA:O. No need to get upset.

It's not that. Just that stanley thinks they're doing us a big favour when they patch their games. I don't think that's right.

[Jonp382]

Sorry, should have quoted Ju-on.(Message was directed towards them) Regardless of what Stan thinks they're still supporting the game. And correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think Stan is in charge of these 'favors'.

[Fexelea]

No I don't think he is, and I agree with others that his perspective on this is pretty much useless as he seems to be unaware that not having the obligation to do something does not mean you aren't forced to do it anyway because of other reasons (in this instance, customers not buying your games again or getting a reputation of a fire and forget company)

I do think that it is more detrimental to Bioware to have such things posted on their forums by members of their staff under a Bioware signature. You can understand why people would assume that is the belief of the company and not the individual

Modifié par Fexelea, 15 mai 2010 - 11:24 .

[Loerwyn]

It's the belief of the industry.



BioWare, or Stanley Woo for that matter, are a for-profit company. Whilst the developers might care about their customers, or if indeed the whole studio does, if they're instructed by, say, EA to not patch the game and to focus on another product, then that is what they will do. Such reactions are not the fault of BioWare, they're the fault of a "It is the company's duty to do X", when it isn't. You could say a game that doesn't work is a faulty product, but is it? If, say, Bob down the road has Game Y working yet it doesn't work for me (and we have different PCs), would that be a faulty game or would my own hardware/software be at fault? Chances are it's the latter.



BioWare do (and have) gone out of their way for patches though. There was the ME2 patch that increased performance on Single Core CPUs (I think), yet they were still below the game's specs. That's a rather unusual move, IMHO.

[Fexelea]

It is precisely because it is a for-profit that keeping customers is important. It is just as AngryFrozenWater said earlier: it is in their interest to patch games. It is not a favor to the gamer. Nobody in the industry thinks it is a favor, otherwise as a for-profit, they wouldn't do them.

[Loerwyn]

Do you honestly think that it makes a huge difference what the company looks like?



Proof of what I mean: Activision.

[Fexelea]

Yes I do think so. I'm a marketer.

[Loerwyn]

In that case, I will respectfully disagree.

Assassin's Creed 2 and Spore had huge DRM controversy, yet they were still (at the time of their respective releases) in the Top Sellers lists for PC games. Activision clearly were milking people for money with MW2 and its higher price and overpriced DLC, yet MW2 was one of the most successful game releases of all time, shifting millions of copies.

It tends to only be the die-hard fans (so BioWare fanboys etc) who actually care what a company's image is. Joe Public out there couldn't give a rat's backside if Developer 18 said that Product X8U was Something Bad.

[Dark Lilith]

Politeness is to human nature what warmth is to wax. ~Arthur Schopenhauer

[I Valente I]

purplesunset wrote...

I wasn't sure where to put this thread, so I'll put it in Off Topic. After patch 1.03, I see a lot of people saying things like "Thanks Bioware!" after quoting a part of the patch notes.

Seriously:

1) Aren't they already getting paid ?

2) Aren't patches supposed to fix things that weren't suppsoed to be broken in the first place ?

3) Do they actually care if they get thanked or not? see ---> number  1)


By expressing gratitude you're fostering this attitude that  doing things like  patching their own game  is a favor or something. Ummm, no, it's not.  Let's nip this in the bud, please.

you seem like lovely person. Bright ray of sunshine. lol.

[Veange]

purplesunset wrote...

I wasn't sure where to put this thread, so I'll put it in Off Topic. After patch 1.03, I see a lot of people saying things like "Thanks Bioware!" after quoting a part of the patch notes.

Seriously:

1) Aren't they already getting paid ?

2) Aren't patches supposed to fix things that weren't suppsoed to be broken in the first place ?

3) Do they actually care if they get thanked or not? see ---> number  1)


By expressing gratitude you're fostering this attitude that  doing things like  patching their own game  is a favor or something. Ummm, no, it's not.  Let's nip this in the bud, please.

Feeling gratitude and expressing it is a commonplace social custom.

Why feel gratitude (in this case since they are getting paid)? Human nature to appraise and appreciate our circumstances. Devs make game slightly better, you have more fun, you are slightly happier as a result, you are grateful that it happened.

Why express gratitude? Social custom entrenched in culture and personal habits; necessary corollary from social exchanges, as we are a social creature. It feels good to compliment the chef even if you are paying him / her to make you a good meal just as it feels good to give or receive a hug. Why? - because we just tend to be wired that way as a species.

Alas, some people don't care for hugs, I suppose.

Modifié par Veange, 15 mai 2010 - 05:12 .

[Stanley Woo]

*sigh* People love taking what I say and using it to get their righteous indignation on. They jump to whatever conclusion they like, then castigate us (or me) for having stolen their puppy. I'm sure that if I expressed a desire for consumers to take responsibility for their purchasing decisions, I'd be raked over the coals for not taking responsibility as a company.



Based on the tone and the content of the posts against me, it's pretty obvious that folks are expressing their frustration and dislike of me and hoping I'll act as a lens that will focus it on the company like a big Bat-signal. How about let's try not taking my words in the worst possible way, and actually discuss things?



Patches as a "favour": perhaps the word "favour" is the catalyst here. All I meant was that developers are never obligated to provide post-release support. And yet, pretty much every developer does because it just makes sense. Some developers will provide a single patch, some provide ongoing support for years, even long after the game has stopped appearing regularly on store shelves. It is a "favour" because patches require time and resources that can't be used to develop the next product.



Technically--and for some people, this will translate to "as a money-grubbing soulless corporation, I hate you, humble paying customer"--your EULA states that you agree that your particular software product is purchased "as is". Anything over and above technical support can be considered "optional." The fact that pretty much everyone does it does not mean patches are suddenly mandatory, just as the fact that everyone speeds does not mean exceeding the speed limit is suddenly legal.



Just so, if you have a problem with something I say, by all means bring it up. I am always happy to discuss the game industry and our released games and what I think of things. I do have a bit of an issue with people disliking what I say but never talking to me about it.



And Ju-0n, if you really wish to protest against BioWare, it would be better to not buy our products at all. But next time, please leave out the ways in which you want us to die. That's highly inappropriate for our forums.



Any questions, comments, concerns, love, hate, whatever? Sound off. Y'all resurrected this thread for a reason.

[Veange]

Also I'd like to add that people outside of software dev (especially the gaming industry) typically hold very little idea and appreciation for how demanding this job can be.

Even small bugs can have big implications on a game as massive as DA:O.

Customers can complain, I guess - that's what customers do when their comprehension fails their expectations.

Unless someone has had extensive experience overseeing bioware (or another major design team) game production, they are in zero position to offer critique on how flawless the game should have been on release date, or how swiftly certain bugs should have been fixed.

As with most things: it's harder than it looks.

Modifié par Veange, 15 mai 2010 - 05:38 .

[Stanley Woo]

It is harder than it looks, and that's where a lot of the disagreement comes from.



A layman looks at his game, which has bugs in it, and sees all the ways in which it fell short. Everything that "should have worked" is seen as having a default "perfect" state, and all the flaws should be easily brought back to this perfect state. It's like a pie. In its "default perfect state," it's a hot, whole pie. People see bugs as pieces taken out of the pie, or the fact it's not hot anymore, or it's been taken out of its baking tin and placed in a different container.



Software bugs aren't always as easy to deal with as people think. Continuing with that pie analogy, some things are really easy to fix. Pie's cold? We'll just warm it back up again. Ding! Simple fix and it doesn't affect anything else except the temperature of the pie. Pie's on a different plate? We'll just put it back in its original pie tin. Ding! Fixed. Again, you haven't changed the pie, it still tastes the same, it's just in a different container.



But if there's a piece taken out of the pie--not a whole slice, but a piece--it's not so easy to fix, is it? In fact, it might be impossible to simply repair the pie, since anything you do to it will have some effect on the rest of the pie because everything was all baked together.



Now, imagine some guy is balancing that pie on a 10-foot pole while doing a complicated tap routine in time with the music on top of a moving car. And this performance is being broadcast simultaneously to every country in the world on the internet! How many potential problems can you see cropping up in that scenario? That's pretty much what game development is like these days: all manner of different resources baked together in a pie with a bunch of interoperating systems choreographed into it, being broadcast on disc to different regions so people can experience it on all manner of different systems.



ANd no matter how diligent people are, no matter how careful and capable they are, no one can account for every single contingency, no one is perfect, and no battle plan survives contact with the enemy. There was a lot of, shall we say "interesting," things done wiht NWN to make it all work as well as it did.

[angiek76]

Stanley Woo wrote...

It is harder than it looks, and that's where a lot of the disagreement comes from.

A layman looks at his game, which has bugs in it, and sees all the ways in which it fell short. Everything that "should have worked" is seen as having a default "perfect" state, and all the flaws should be easily brought back to this perfect state. It's like a pie. In its "default perfect state," it's a hot, whole pie. People see bugs as pieces taken out of the pie, or the fact it's not hot anymore, or it's been taken out of its baking tin and placed in a different container.

Software bugs aren't always as easy to deal with as people think. Continuing with that pie analogy, some things are really easy to fix. Pie's cold? We'll just warm it back up again. Ding! Simple fix and it doesn't affect anything else except the temperature of the pie. Pie's on a different plate? We'll just put it back in its original pie tin. Ding! Fixed. Again, you haven't changed the pie, it still tastes the same, it's just in a different container.

But if there's a piece taken out of the pie--not a whole slice, but a piece--it's not so easy to fix, is it? In fact, it might be impossible to simply repair the pie, since anything you do to it will have some effect on the rest of the pie because everything was all baked together.

Now, imagine some guy is balancing that pie on a 10-foot pole while doing a complicated tap routine in time with the music on top of a moving car. And this performance is being broadcast simultaneously to every country in the world on the internet! How many potential problems can you see cropping up in that scenario? That's pretty much what game development is like these days: all manner of different resources baked together in a pie with a bunch of interoperating systems choreographed into it, being broadcast on disc to different regions so people can experience it on all manner of different systems.

ANd no matter how diligent people are, no matter how careful and capable they are, no one can account for every single contingency, no one is perfect, and no battle plan survives contact with the enemy. There was a lot of, shall we say "interesting," things done wiht NWN to make it all work as well as it did.

I understand and I realize there will be potential bugs & that those will take time to fix. I think you guys do a heck of a job making great games. That being said, can you maybe not use a pie anology at lunch time? lol I'm craving pie now! 

[Veange]

Interesting pie analogy, I haven't thought of it that way but I have my own analogy with the same morals.

Software coding is like having a huge pile of Jenga blocks http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jenga; you make some beautiful, intricate design like, say, a large and detailed T-Rex dinosaur model without glue.

Once designed and put together, debugging is like having to make changes to your finished product: having to carefully take out pieces, examine how that will affect the overall structure, making calculations on balance / load, re-inserting a different piece to fix a problem or to make something better, all the while testing to make sure that the entire thing would not collapse due to your changes. Superficial problems like fixing a Jenga tree next to the dinosaur is easy, but many seemingly small problems will require you to adjust pieces in the foundation where it affects the whole structure. For example, the T-Rex leaning slightly to a side might mean that you need to adjust one or several pieces at the base of the model without it falling part.

Big design issues one can avoid by smart planning before implementation, but invariably some problems will carry through. I've played WoW for five years. The notorious mage blink bug existed from Day 1. It never got fixed despite loud, continuous complaints from the community about how it "should've been easily remedied". It is a game design issue that's not recoverable, or simply not worth re-writing large portions of the game to compensate. There are better areas to focus developer attention on.

Back with the Jenga dinosaur analogy. Suppose that were 50 other people also adjusting their Jenga structures with you on a very large, round table. Every so often, the table would rotate. You must now fix someone else's model while another one fixes yours. People can leave instructions and documentation on their work, but it is still impossible to thoroughly understand all the intricacies and opinions. Now we have a simplified representation of how difficult software debugging is for a large program.

Modifié par Veange, 15 mai 2010 - 06:53 .

[Krethka]

Stanley Woo wrote...
It is a favour. We are under no obligation to provide post-release patches. I believe the EULA for most, if not all games states something to the effect of the product being released "as-is" and the software having no warranty in and of itself. I seem to remember reading that, so please correct me if I'm wrong. Any warranty included in game purchases relates directly to the physical media on which the game is printed.

You are not entitled to a game that works to your specifications or to your satisfaction, but we still work darned hard to try and make it as painless and bug-free as we can. That is something people can and do thank us for: our commitment to quality.

You would be fired by any decent company for telling that to a customer.  I hope Bioware becomes a decent company some day and does it.

[Godak]

Krethka wrote...

You would be fired by any decent company for telling that to a customer.  I hope Bioware becomes a decent company some day and does it.

Companies fire employees for telling customers the truth? Weird.

[Onyx Jaguar]

Godak wrote...

Krethka wrote...

You would be fired by any decent company for telling that to a customer.  I hope Bioware becomes a decent company some day and does it.

Companies fire employees for telling customers the truth? Weird.

Indeed, and Woo is quite correct.  I recall on the NIS forums company spokespeople told the truth and said that they were not going to "fix" Ar Tonellico 2 (game is broken at the end) because it had already shipped.  No recall, no patches nothing game was complete.  This is nothing new.  Bioware is working on patches from the looks of it which is a change of pace from some of their previous works.  

Games really are just a bunch of files and code stamped onto whatever medium/output they are on.  Once they are designated for release the company has no obligation for further development.

[Remmak]

Well, I hope Bioware keeps Woo where he is. He's telling the truth and there's nothing offensive or out-of-bounds about it. Expecting a game to appease everyone in every way is ridiculous. Expecting a game the size of the ones Bioware makes to be 100% bug-free is ridiculous.



I don't thank Bioware because I feel a "need" to do so. I do so because I understand the amount of work that has gone into the project they have given me - a game that I enjoy, that inspires me in my creative endeavors. I write a lot of fanfiction, and nothing is more disheartening than seeing the thousands of hits you get from readers and then seeing the abysmally low review rate. Do I expect praise? No. Is it nice to know someone is thankful for my work? Yes. People being happy with what they get, making the people who made what they got happy by thanking them, and so on is just good synergy. It's a win-win.