156 réponses à ce sujet

[Dark Lilith]

*takes notes on steno machine*

[Fexelea]

Stanley Woo wrote...
If you cannot conduct yourself in a civil, professional manner, I will be forced to remove your posting privileges.

Whilst I agree that Ju-On is overdoing the anger and should tone it down to a more civil tone, I see absolutely no reason why he should have professional manners on this. He is acting as an individual and his company's name is nowhere to be seen so I don't see how his profession factors in?

Yes, I nitpick. <3

[Mercuron]

If you're going to ask for manners, they must be professional ones. Nothing worse than cheap manners.

Except cheap shoes. And cheap aftershave. Cheap tyres no good either, by gum.



Hmm ... I forget where I was going with this.

[Tirigon]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Patches as a "favour": perhaps the word "favour" is the catalyst here. All I meant was that developers are never obligated to provide post-release support. And yet, pretty much every developer does because it just makes sense. Some developers will provide a single patch, some provide ongoing support for years, even long after the game has stopped appearing regularly on store shelves. It is a "favour" because patches require time and resources that can't be used to develop the next product.

Technically--and for some people, this will translate to "as a money-grubbing soulless corporation, I hate you, humble paying customer"--your EULA states that you agree that your particular software product is purchased "as is". Anything over and above technical support can be considered "optional." The fact that pretty much everyone does it does not mean patches are suddenly mandatory, just as the fact that everyone speeds does not mean exceeding the speed limit is suddenly legal.

You are of course right with that, but I think that patches - at least bug-fixing patches, it´s entirely different with balancing patches - are still "mandatory" insofar as they do not add anything new but simply fix what in theory SHOULD HAVE BEEN CORRECT TO START WITH.

If a company doesn´t wish to patch their games, it might be better to test it more thoroughly so that it doesn´t NEED patches.

It is not surprising that people who paid for a game are annoyed and demand a patch if there is a heavy, for some even game-breaking, bug, that should in theory have been eliminated before release.

I know that´s not always possible, but that´s why patches are important.

[Stanley Woo]

Tirigon wrote...
You are of course right with that, but I think that patches - at least bug-fixing patches, it´s entirely different with balancing patches - are still "mandatory" insofar as they do not add anything new but simply fix what in theory SHOULD HAVE BEEN CORRECT TO START WITH.

Programmers aren't perfect, games are complex, and we don't have infinite time to look for and fix issues. Those are the major reasons why most software is released with bugs. And it's not something you can really control after the fact. You might as well say that a person who didn't want to fail the test should have gotten 100% to start with.

Theoretically possible, but completely ignores the reality of the schedules and money involved.

If a company doesn´t wish to patch their games, it might be better to test it more thoroughly so that it doesn´t NEED patches.

Okay, then, I'll ask. how much more testing needs to be done? Keep in mind that the longer you're testing and fixing, the longer it will be before the game can be sent for certification. In the meantime, you're burning money on operating costs and getting really darned close to advertised release dates. if you miss those dates, that's millions of advertising dollars wasted. You also have other projects which need people being freed up on time, ot their schedule will get messed up.

So please, enlighten me. how much more testing is needed? An extra month? Until al the bugs are located and fixed? Or some other arbitrary length of time which doesn't eliminate your problem at all? Because I'll tell you, it's great to spend all that money to find the blockers and game-breakers, but eventually you have to release. And millions of gamers on millions of different machines will always, always find new problems that dozens of people on dozens of machines simply couldn't find or couldn't reliably reproduce.

It is not surprising that people who paid for a game are annoyed and demand a patch if there is a heavy, for some even game-breaking, bug, that should in theory have been eliminated before release.

I know that´s not always possible, but that´s why patches are important.

Absolutely, and I'm glad pretty much everyone makes them. It has to be worth all that effort, though. Stil doesn't eliminate the base game development issue of not having unlimited time or resources, or having to use fallible, mortal humans to create the game.

[Loerwyn]

I think it's even worse when a company, for whatever reason, doesn't patch major issues with games. I can live with, say, the Mass Effect 2 bug that makes Shep climb everything and get stuck. That's not a huge problem in the grand scheme of things.

But Saints Row 2? I don't think Volition even patched it, or if they did, it wasn't often. PC had no DLC for it, or any real post-release support. That, to me, is a real shame as SR2 was very, very promising and I would have enjoyed it more than GTA if it wasn't for all the serious bugs.

Oddly enough, Mirror's Edge has been out a year and a bit on the PC (close to a year and a half now, I think), and that's only had one patch which was a Day 0 release.



To me, that's a bigger problem than release bugs. At least, as Mr Woo said, most companies fix them. Such a shame when a promising product is crippled by bugs that never get fixed.

[Calydon]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Absolutely, and I'm glad pretty much everyone makes them. It has to be worth all that effort, though. Stil doesn't eliminate the base game development issue of not having unlimited time or resources, or having to use fallible, mortal humans to create the game.

Darned fallible mortal humans! When will we have games programmed by Cylons? It is surely worth our future enslavement to have bug-free software 4evr.

[Veange]

Calydon wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

Absolutely, and I'm glad pretty much everyone makes them. It has to be worth all that effort, though. Stil doesn't eliminate the base game development issue of not having unlimited time or resources, or having to use fallible, mortal humans to create the game.

Darned fallible mortal humans! When will we have games programmed by Cylons? It is surely worth our future enslavement to have bug-free software 4evr.

Someone from the convoy fleet is bound to make a thread criticizing how the "bugs" within Cylon programming caused their genocide of the human colonies to not be completely thorough...

Modifié par Veange, 17 mai 2010 - 06:30 .

[Daewan]

You know, I hear that the new Duke Nukem game has no bugs.

And the Phantom console? That has no bugs either.

In fact, the main ingredient in bug-free hardware or software is simply never being released. To anyone. Once humans, with all their chaotic behavior and lack of standards, get their hands on a release, something will go wrong, and people will complain. People always complain, it's fun and easy.

And that's why people should thank developers for fixing things - saying thank you is hard, and it's usually a pain to take time out of your busy day to thank people for helping you. But they made the effort, and so should you. You should always thank people for doing what they are supposed to do. Positive reinforcement works wonders, and lasts a really long time. If all you want is half-hearted "do what you're paid to do" effort, then don't bother thanking people. But if you want people to love their job and keep doing it, thank them whenever you get a chance.

[Tirigon]

Stanley Woo wrote...


So please, enlighten me. how much more testing is needed? An extra month? Until al the bugs are located and fixed? Or some other arbitrary length of time which doesn't eliminate your problem at all? Because I'll tell you, it's great to spend all that money to find the blockers and game-breakers, but eventually you have to release. And millions of gamers on millions of different machines will always, always find new problems that dozens of people on dozens of machines simply couldn't find or couldn't reliably reproduce.

It seems I came across as more hostile than I wanted. As I say in the following:

Tirigon wrote...

It is not surprising that people who paid for a game are annoyed and demand a patch if there is a heavy, for some even game-breaking, bug, that should in theory have been eliminated before release.

I know that´s not always possible, but that´s why patches are important.

I just wanted to point out why I disagree that patches are a mere favor even when a company is not forced to produce them.

[Blackbaron15]

Its a little known secret that if you thank developers they'll actually give us DLC worth buying...

apparently we havent thanked Bioware enough.

[Stanley Woo]

Lol, that's as good a reason as any. I like it... but promise nothing.

Also, we just did another "favour" for all y'all. And remember to tip your waitress.

Modifié par Stanley Woo, 17 mai 2010 - 08:51 .

[Beerfish]

The reason for thanking them?



Probably because for every thank you developers thread there are 20 attack the developer thread (of which 1 or 2 are legit and well thought out.)



It's also nice to have an environment where the developers will drop in and have some input and discuss things.

[Fexelea]

Stanley Woo wrote...
Also, we just did another "favour" for all y'all. And remember to tip your waitress.

How about broken Dragon Age on PS3? No tips for you.

<_<

[Loerwyn]

Fexelea wrote...
How about broken Dragon Age on PS3? No tips for you.

<_<

Because the development of ME patches is related to the development of DAO patches, amirite?

[Fexelea]

OnlyShallow89 wrote...

Because the development of ME patches is related to the development of DAO patches, amirite?

He said y'all and I am here, and I have been posting and mentioning this. Not my doing that he highlights support for one thing over the other.

So no, unorite.

[Remmak]

Beerfish wrote...
It's also nice to have an environment where the developers will drop in and have some input and discuss things.

Cheers, Beerfish!

[Sloth Of Doom]

This is directed mainly at Mr. Woo, and I don;t want to have a huge post and quote pyramid because I am lazy....

I agree with your early post that programming is complicated and it is not fiscally viable to find every single bug in a modern game. In fact, i would go so far as t say anyone that doesn;t understand this is pretty much an idiot.

But (and you knew there was a but, right?) the thing that really gets me (and many others) is when relatively major bugs make it to release. I don't really care if someone uses an incorrect gender pronoun in one line, or if things clip strangely and other such bugs. It is the things like the DA:O dex bug that confuse the heck out of me. That is something I think people have a right to point to and ask "Hey, what the hell happened here?" without looking like an idiot. We as gamers can only ASSUME that someone at Bioware had some sort of console output to look at instead of just assuming the game was magically working. A rather large and obvious bug like that making it to retail is a definite eyebrow raiser.

I'm not attacking Bioware or anything, in fact I think they are solidly in the middle of the pack when it comes to releasing buggy games and when it comes to fixing said bugs. I just wanted to point out that saying "Hell, it has to ship sometime" is as a generic and uninformitive a response as someone saying "Boware iz suk cuz dere am bugz and I am boycoting dem!"

Modifié par Sloth Of Doom, 18 mai 2010 - 12:32 .

[MerinTB]

purplesunset wrote...
I wasn't sure where to put this thread, so I'll put it in Off Topic. After patch 1.03, I see a lot of people saying things like "Thanks Bioware!" after quoting a part of the patch notes.
Seriously:
1) Aren't they already getting paid ?
2) Aren't patches supposed to fix things that weren't suppsoed to be broken in the first place ?
3) Do they actually care if they get thanked or not? see ---> number  1)

By expressing gratitude you're fostering this attitude that  doing things like  patching their own game  is a favor or something. Ummm, no, it's not.  Let's nip this in the bud, please.

I'm fairly certain I've seen you make this point in threads before.  But whatever...

without reading the rest of the thread at all, I'll give you some reasons of the top of my head:
- to be polite
- because you appreciate what they have done
- you know that you like recognition when you do a good job, and turnabout is fair play
- would you thank the doctor who saved your life? the police officer who returned your stolen goods and caught the person who took them? the scientist who invented the medical device that alleviates a condition you have?  the soldier who saved your family member who was in said soldier's unit in combat? even though they are all doing a job they are paid for, too?


In the reverse, to expect perfect service and to treat those who make mistakes or who try to fix problems with whatever they or someone else did for you that didn't work out right the first time poorly, is being rude, self-centered, unrealistic with your expectations, and quite frankly a jerk.

That's how I see it.

[Vincent Rosevalliant]

Krethka wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...  *sigh* People love taking what I say and using it to get their righteous indignation on.

 
This is because you're telling customers who received a defective product (I'm speaking specifically about the unaddressed bug that routinely renders save files unreadable, which was reported to Bioware five or more months ago, but examples abound) that fixing critical bugs is a "favor".

I can't believe Bioware allows their employees to post that.  I'm honestly baffled what your ombudsperson and/or marketing teams do all day if this is permitted.  If nothing else, it would be damaging in court.

Stanley Woo wrote... They jump to whatever conclusion they like, then castigate us (or me) for having stolen their puppy.

No, they're upset because Bioware took $60 for a defective product, and has done an abysmal job of addressing these rather severe defects.  Your use of hyperbole here is insulting, and emblematic of the larger problem: Bioware doesn't take the defects in their products seriously.

Stanley Woo wrote... Based on the tone and the content of the posts against me, it's pretty obvious that folks are expressing their frustration and dislike of me and hoping I'll act as a lens that will focus it on the company like a big Bat-signal. How about let's try not taking my words in the worst possible way, and actually discuss things?

People are reacting negatively to your posts because you're trivializing the importance of their concerns.  I suspect that if you (or better yet, a more capable employee who can accurately read the mood of your rather dissatisfied customers and has more experience doing corporate damage control) changed the content of your condescending posts, posters would be inclined to react positively.

You're making a fundamental attribution error-- you're saying that if people are reacting negatively to your actions, it's something inherent to them.

+1

[Stanley Woo]

Fexelea wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...
Also, we just did another "favour" for all y'all. And remember to tip your waitress.

How about broken Dragon Age on PS3? No tips for you.

<_<

Will this do?

[Mercuron]

Humble pie would appear to be on tonight's menu, Bio-haters.

[Dethateer]

Mercuron wrote...

Humble pie would appear to be on tonight's menu, Bio-haters.

ORLY? 'Cause I can't see anything about the floating issue in that patch. Plus, it's only for the 'bawks.

[joey_mork84]

Mercuron wrote...

Humble pie would appear to be on tonight's menu, Bio-haters.

I have nothing useful at all to add to this, but I have to say, I love your avatar dude! Awesome!

[Mercuron]

Someone tries to counter the ME2 patch remark with how busted Dragon Age on PS3 is, then gets countered with a patch for that game on that system within several hours of posting it?

Nitpicks won't diminish that master stroke.