127 réponses à ce sujet

[Grizzly46]

JaegerBane wrote...

Captain_Obvious_au wrote...

Kinda strikes me that Bioware is trying to make up for the lack of heavy weapons in ME1 by digitally drowning ME2 players with Heavy Weapons. Okay sure, they're great, but how about some new pistols or assault rifles? Taking into account the vanilla game with the Cerberus Network, we have

2 x Pistols
2 x Submachine Guns
2-4 x Assault Rifles (depending on game choice and difficulty)
2-3 x Sniper Rifles (depending on game choice)
3-4 x Shotguns
7 x Heavy Weapons

So basically depending on how you've played the game, you get nearly as many Heavy Weapons as you do for every other weapon type combined! At the very least there are twice as many Heavy Weapons as any other single type, even with the maximum.

Don't get me wrong, I love weapon weapons as much as the next person, but how about some love for the other weapon types?

I love these weird psuedo-logical arguments where people rattle of register lists as if they're expecting the Video Games Weapon Equality Commission to come in with a public inquiry.

There's two fairly straightforward reasons why there are more heavy weapons than any other class:

1) Every character class can use them. The time spent working on them therefore equally benefits all players.

2) 'Heavy Weapons' is a catch-all term to describe any weird and mostly fictional sci-fi weaponry in the game. It doesn't have any real world analogue and therefore the class covers a lot more.

I keep hearing 'why can't the other groups have some attention - the pistols and SMGs only have two each wah wah wah'.

I have heard of precisely one idea as to what kind of extra pistol that could be included that makes any sense, and that is a Silenced Predator that doesn't break the Infil's Cloak. That is amongst a deluge of god-awful ideas ranging from Covenant Plasma Pistols to carbine SMGs (whatever the hell that is supposed to be...).

We already have a basic calibre semi-auto pistol, a magnum, a burst-firing machine pistol and a full-auto TMP. What precisely can anyone think is needed here on top of this?

The nature of the basic guns in ME is that they tend to be real-world analogues. And we're fast running out of them. Heavy Weapons have no such issues.

I'd love a railgun.... but I'm not sure how this would differ from the widow, or how it would be justified that any class can wield it when only infils and soldiers have to wait half the game to get the widow.

I hope they keep releasing new heavies. The Arc Projector is teh pwnz.

QFT. There would be more sense in upgrading shotguns or in fact, add more heavy weapons, if ME is to mimic real life with an added sci-fi flavour. That means, we have a grenade launcher (real world equivalent of say MM-1), a missile launcher (too many real world equivalents too count), but nothing that would be the same as a machinegun. That is, a heavy support weapon with great range, penetration and impact, great ammunition capacity and so on. That is actually the only thing I really miss in the armory. The wackier sci-fi weapons are nice, but they don't fill the empty niche that is to be filled by the MMG or HMG. But somehow, we'll make do...

[JaegerBane]

TJSolo wrote...

The list of guns in the game is not weird psuedo-logic, it is just the numbers as they stand.
Having 2 picks of SMG/Pistol while other weapons have more is an accurate statement.

Assuming that there's some reason why there should be more than 2 types of pistol and 2 types of SMG is pseudo-logic. There's no actual real reason for it. Unlike heavy weapons, or even rifles, there's only so many different types pistols and SMGs that you can realistically make before you're just releasing the same gun with a different model.

Realistically, how many types of semi-automatic pistol do you need?

1.) That doesn't explain the low count of pistols, since all classes can use those. SMGs are only unusable by the soldier class, leaving the majority of the classes to gain. Yet soldiers already have the widest array of weapon selection. Speaking of classes and players. Players are not defined by the class they pick. A player can play multiple classes.

Pistols are sidearms. Backup guns. The only classes that depend on them are ones that don't specialise in weaponry, funnily enough. It isn't like the eviscerator which actually does bring a lot to the table.

2.) Heavy Weapons are not guns. Not sure how this is a reason for their being more heavy weapons.

I suggest you read the post again, TJSolo. Nowhere did I state that heavy weapons are not guns. The simple fact is that what qualifies as a heavy weapon can be anything from a flamethrower to a tactical nuclear missile launcher. What qualifies as a heavy pistol is anything that is semi-auto and can be held in one hand. There simply isn't the range to be all that conducive to making new stuff.

ME2 gun ideology has BW painted into a corner. You can't have real world analogues because every magnum is not made by Smith and Wesson. Real world there are multiples of any given gun if only for the sake of the grip.
It has been stated the ME2 guns need to be recognizably different from each other and only situationally better then each.
There aren't too many ways you can make a pistol in ME2 different without making it too powerful or too weak compared to the two already in the game.
Yet in practice people still want selection even if it is just a variance in the color or material of the grip.

In which case it might be a better idea asking for a gun customisation DLC rather than just 'I wantz moar gunz wiv mah cheezburga'.

[Captain_Obvious_au]

JaegerBane wrote...

it might be a better idea asking for a gun customisation DLC rather than just 'I wantz moar gunz wiv mah cheezburga'.

Actually you can only get guns with a cheeseburger in the USA, so since that's not going to happen in Mass Effect we need a better system, like normal gun DLC!

In all seriousness though I'm sure Bioware employees are creative enough to come up with more than, for example, two hanguns. In the original Mass Effect we had 10 different pistols all with different combinations of accuracy, firepower, and shots until overheat (so for ME2, shots per heatsink). Since Bioware could do that, I'm sure they can come up with viable alternatives to the 2 pistols in-game at the moment.

[RighteousRage]

FoxholeHunter wrote...

Trouble is the heavy weapon can be used by every class, so everyone gets to use it straight off the bat. If they make one for another class people complain they cant use it for "their" class. But I agree they could make a few more for the other weapons, we did get one new Cerberus "shotty" so why not the others.

But everyone can use pistols, and there are still only two pistols, so...

[RighteousRage]

Also wtf JaegerBane, there are plenty of kinds of machine pistols/submachine guns that were not in the original game. Neither of the SMGs even have a stock, which is pretty weird considering like 90%+ of real life analogues come with some kind of fitting for one, and they all behave like uzis or something rather than something more fitting for special forces like a more powerful 3-round burst weapon.

[rwscissors702]

Like to see an SMG more like this please.

[Pocketgb]

Here's the issue with making new "normal" weapons:







Notice the Sten Zone. This is where you don't want your weapons to be, since they'll decrease variety by either being too useless (lower-left, i.e. Lancer AR from ME1) or too powerful (upper-right, i.e. Spectre AR from ME1).



There are two basic routes the devs can go for making a new weapon. They can either up the damage-per-bullet while decreasing the rate of fire, or increase the rate of fire while decreasing the damage-per-bullet. Let's look at the assault rifle: the higher the dmg/shot and ROF ratio, the closer you're bringing it to becoming a sniper rifle.



Then there are other parameters to follow. You can balance them via total ammo count as seen with the Vindicator, there's range-of-effectiveness as seen in the crazy good Eviscerator. Granted you can make a pistol like the one in Men-In-Black that insta-kills any enemy you shoot at and it only has 1 bullet...but then you've pretty much made a heavy weapon and designed it for the wrong weapon slot.



BUT that ain't all! There's only *one* thing that could encourage Bioware to make more normal weapons, and that's in unique benefits. The only example of this in the game is the Geth Pulse Rifle. It might suck, but it's the only route they can take with the other weapons to actually warrant DLC.



Also, releasing just 1-weapon for DLC is not only a waste of cash, but a poor idea. Sell multiple weapons in a single go to make every class happy.



I personally wouldn't mind seeing an AR that a high rate-of-fire with high damage, but it had a wind-up time. I feel that they'll keep that for a heavy weapon, though.

[RighteousRage]

rwscissors702 wrote...

Like to see an SMG more like this please.

Yes exactly, something more powerful and accurate than the shuriken but with a lower rate of fire maybe, like the Vindicator of the SMGs

[Captain_Obvious_au]

Actually Pocket that's completely wrong. There are actually six variables I can think of, not two:
- weapon power
- rate of fire
- accuracy
- rounds per heat sink
- total heat sink capacity
- range

With all of those variables, surely Bioware can come up with a few more interesting weapons.

Modifié par Captain_Obvious_au, 11 mars 2010 - 12:55 .

[Ocelot83]

jgordon11 wrote...

Well its simply harder to come up with new weapons that people would use.

sniper rifles: bolt action, semi automatic, anti materiel
submachine guns: machine pistol, submachine gun
assault rifles: assault rifle (auto), battle rifle (burst), LMG
pistols: low caliber (high capacity), high caliber (low capacity)
shotguns: low cap high power, high cap lower power, one shot powerful, extended range

Any new non heavy gun would have to find a niche in one of the those classes or would just be upgrading one of the already existing weapons to make it better (eviscerator). Either that or being a cross between already existing weapons. The only truely different weapon i could think of would be a high powered high recoil semiautomatic battle rifle (scopeless viper).

jgordon11 is absolutely right, it's much more easier to invent new kinds of heavy weapons than coming up with traditional weapons that actually differentiate from each other.
Even I can come up with a new heavy weapon from the top of my head:
-Sticky bomb launcher, you can shoot bomb/grenades that stick on the floor/walls/enemies and they detonate on proximity. That took about 30 seconds, but it's much more harder to think of a new kind pistol, for example.

[Pocketgb]

Captain_Obvious_au wrote...

Actually Pocket that's completely wrong. There are actually six variables I can think of, not two:
- weapon power
- rate of fire
- accuracy
- rounds per heat sink
- total heat sink capacity
- range

With all of those variables, surely Bioware can come up with a few more interesting weapons.

Dang, "completely wrong"? You just added one whole variable while neglicting effective weapon range! How mean!

The other balancing problem here is varying things by too much. If Bioware created a pistol that had a slower rate of fire than the Carnifex but dealt more damage with higher range, then you're giving Adepts a miniature Sniper Rifle. If you give it very close range with a higher rate of fire than the Predator, you've given them another SMG. Most preferances have been covered. There's not much more Bioware can do - sans creating more weapons with unique properties, as seen above - in creating more weapons.

[Darkhour]

Different kinds of conventional weapons although doable would seem, in my opinion, pointless from a stance of practicality. They would pretty much function the same, but perhaps cater to different playstyles. *shrug*

I wouldn't mind seeing ammo type upgrades as DLC. Like sticky foam pistol ammo. A shotgun round that can fire a "tech net" that temporarily incapacitates opponents and drains their shields. SMG flash rounds that temporarily blind enemies. A sniper ammo type that kills the target, but lodges explosive rounds inside them which detonate a few moments after they die and can harm anyone nearby. I'm sure Bioware can come up with some other creative ideas.

[Captain_Obvious_au]

Pocketgb wrote...

Dang, "completely wrong"? You just added one whole variable while neglicting effective weapon range! How mean!

Okay not 'completely wrong', I was referring mainly to the graphic you put up which included only two variables, when as I'm sure you'll agree there are a lot more. Sure, you can't have too many too low or high, but surely there are enough effective combinations to produce a few more guns for each category.

[Master Smurf]

If you could customize your weapons I bet this wouldnt be an issue for most.
I wish I could colour my weapons to match my armour, and choose stuff like larger clip capacity or aiming sight etc. - similar to MGS but not as extensive (though some would love the possibilities)
It would also be nice if Ammo wasnt a power - you could choose whatever type you want to carry - they would work the same way in-game without the cooldown for initalizing them, they would just be part of your loadout. 

Modifié par Master Smurf, 11 mars 2010 - 04:02 .

[MonkeyLungs]

ME1 weapon mod system could have been expanded upon instead of eliminated.

[Darth_Trethon]

Captain_Obvious_au wrote...

Kinda strikes me that Bioware is trying to make up for the lack of heavy weapons in ME1 by digitally drowning ME2 players with Heavy Weapons. Okay sure, they're great, but how about some new pistols or assault rifles? Taking into account the vanilla game with the Cerberus Network, we have

2 x Pistols
2 x Submachine Guns
2-4 x Assault Rifles (depending on game choice and difficulty)
2-3 x Sniper Rifles (depending on game choice)
3-4 x Shotguns
7 x Heavy Weapons

So basically depending on how you've played the game, you get nearly as many Heavy Weapons as you do for every other weapon type combined! At the very least there are twice as many Heavy Weapons as any other single type, even with the maximum.

Don't get me wrong, I love weapon weapons as much as the next person, but how about some love for the other weapon types?

2 x Pistols
2 x SMGs
3-5 Assault Rifles(start, find, collector, geth & LMG)
3-4 Sniper Rifles(start, find, Incissor & Widow)
3-4 Shotguns
7 x heavy weapons

FIXED

[nigelinooo]

It sucks too because I very rarely rely on the heavy weapons. I only use them for extremely tough bosses (which may be their main purpose). Besides that, I just love sniping heads that poke an inch out of cover.

[Darth_Trethon]

Yeah they need to stop with the heavy weapons until we have 50 of each of the other weapons.

[Atmosfear3]

Everyone needs to keep in mind that releasing new DLC guns (read: not HW) can potentially upset the balance of the game early on. It would make the current arsenal obsolete (i.e. new SMG would make shuriken useless).

[Darth_Trethon]

Atmosfear3 wrote...

Everyone needs to keep in mind that releasing new DLC guns (read: not HW) can potentially upset the balance of the game early on. It would make the current arsenal obsolete (i.e. new SMG would make shuriken useless).

That would be far more acceptable than to completely ignore the fact that those weapon classes are in some desperate need of some variety.

BTW I stole your sig picture

[Nolenthar]

Pocketgb wrote...

The only example of this in the game is the Geth Pulse Rifle. It might suck, but it's the only route they can take with the other weapons to actually warrant DLC.

One of the best assault rifle in the game, if not the best, sucks ? . Accurate, huge rate of fire, very effective against shield, and really effective against armor and health with the proper power (available to all soldiers), very thermal clip effective. Do you really think there is no reason it only pops up in Hardcore ?

Now, even if it's really easier to make heavy weapons while it's harder to make normal weapons, I would just remember that :

- first Cerberus DLC (released after the game) was a shotgun
- second Cerberus DLC is a heavy weapon.

Maybe we might let some time to Bioware so they can release another kind of weapons ? 
I'm sure they are creative enough to make something new on pistol, smg, and assault rifle department.

[Sailears]

ImperialOperative wrote...

Needs moar revolver-type guns pl0x.

Yeah, definitely.

[Atmosfear3]

Nolenthar wrote...

Pocketgb wrote...

The only example of this in the game is the Geth Pulse Rifle. It might suck, but it's the only route they can take with the other weapons to actually warrant DLC.

One of the best assault rifle in the game, if not the best, sucks ? . Accurate, huge rate of fire, very effective against shield, and really effective against armor and health with the proper power (available to all soldiers), very thermal clip effective. Do you really think there is no reason it only pops up in Hardcore ?

 says otherwise.  
It is marginally (emphasis on marginal) better than the avenger which is questionable considering its variable RoF, it sometimes can be worse.

[RighteousRage]

The Geth pulse rifle is terrible haha, which, I think, is why it's only in Hardcore and above (not just Hardcore, by the way). It's just a little trophy to say "good job bro"

[Darth_Trethon]

RighteousRage wrote...

The Geth pulse rifle is terrible haha, which, I think, is why it's only in Hardcore and above (not just Hardcore, by the way). It's just a little trophy to say "good job bro"

Doesn't matter, I don't really use it nor do I let my squad use it but I MUST have it every single playthrough.....it's a nice collectible I can't do without. I am just about obsessed with having every piece of loot in games but within limits. I won't buy multiple copies of a game for all the tiny items that's way too expensive. Fortunately thanks to Microsoft I am still able to have everything without buying 2 copies of the game or heaven forbid a PC version of the game.