95 réponses à ce sujet

[thegreateski]

The Human mind will never cease to . . . entertain me.

[TheMadCat]

I happen to like depth in my games. Maybe you don't but when I pay money to be entertained I want my money's worth.

Its not 2000 anymore, its 2010 and the gaming demographic has changed. GET USED TO IT or go play some shooter, since you can't seem to grasp what depth is.

Except you know, there really isn't any depth to the romances. It's pick certain options, do the quest, get in bed, and done. There is no real point to them, no real involvement other then a meaningless "feel good" aspect. They revealed little about both your character and the character you opted to romance and contributed nothing aside from giving the obligatory man/woman falling in the antagonists arms. They had potential, they all have potential but there were a lot of missed opportunities and a serious lack of depth.

Now to the naysayers calling it a gimmick and saying time would be better spent on quests, charatcers, keep upgrades. Why would you pick that? The romance at least adds to your characters overall story even if it's in a superficial way. Why would any of these other gimmicks be a higher and more entertaining priority? What do fetch quests and "kill 50 spiders" do to add to the game and the story? Things like that are nothing but fat, quick and cheap additions to prop up game time and give the illusion that there is more to it than there really is. What's wrong with someone enoying one kind of fat over the other?

Modifié par TheMadCat, 12 mars 2010 - 12:57 .

[Sunnie]

Default137 wrote...


Some people are so busy stressing over minor **** it amazes me, "OH NO, I CAN'T ADVANCE MY ROMANCE? THIS IS THE BIGGEST DEAL IN THE GAME, I CARE NOTHING FOR PLOT OR CHARACTER, I CAN'T HAVE ALISTAIR MY WORLD IS ENNNNNDING'. "OH NO, PEOPLE DISLIKE AN ORLESIAN, AND HE DOESN'T GET TALKED TO BY THE ROYALTY, HOW DARE THEY REMOVE MY CHOICES, DESPITE THE FACT NOBODY WOULD KNOW THIS ****, I DEMAND YOU ALTER WHAT PEOPLE SHOULD KNOW SO I GET PROPER RESPECT!"

I'll bet your mother just loves how empathetic you are.
/epicfail at dealing with others and their feelings.

[Booglarize]

TheMadCat wrote...

Except you know, there really isn't any depth to the romances. It's pick certain options, do the quest, get in bed, and done. There is no real point to them, no real involvement other then a meaningless "feel good" aspect. They revealed little about both your character and the character you opted to romance and contributed nothing aside from giving the obligatory man/woman falling in the antagonists arms. They had potential, they all have potential but there were a lot of missed opportunities and a serious lack of depth.

Just out of curiosity, what would you define as a romance with "depth"? Are there any romances from other video games that you'd point to as examples?

[Dethanos]

TheMadCat wrote...

Now to the naysayers calling it a gimmick and saying time would be better spent on quests, charatcers, keep upgrades. Why would you pick that? 

Is that a serious question? Why wouldn't you pick that? Quests and characters are the heart of an RPG.

TheMadCat wrote...
The romance at least adds to your characters overall story even if it's in a superficial way. Why would any of these other gimmicks be a higher and more entertaining priority? What do fetch quests and "kill 50 spiders" do to add to the game and the story?

I don't recall too many "kill 50 spiders" quests in DA. I assumed it went without saying that I would want the same quality of quests as in the original game, not WoW-style "quests".

TheMadCat wrote...
Things like that are nothing but fat, quick and cheap additions to prop up game time and give the illusion that there is more to it than there really is. What's wrong with someone enoying one kind of fat over the other?

You think quests and characters qualify as fat in an RPG? Really? Then, what's the meat?

How are good quests and interesting characters "quick and cheap additions"?

Also, I never said there was anything wrong with people enjoying the romance gimmick. I just said that it didn't add anything to my enjoyment of the game, and given the limited development time, I prefer that Bioware flesh out the core features of the game, rather than spend time shoehorning the romance gimmick into the expansion.

[TheMadCat]

Booglarize wrote...

Just out of curiosity, what would you define as a romance with "depth"? Are there any romances from other video games that you'd point to as examples?

Something with meaning and substance. The romances in DA:O, Mass Effect, JE, and to a lesser extent KoToR all felt more like little games than anything. It was kind of like the Oblivion persuade minigame, where you try and find the best "line" to pick and if you pick the best line enough times you eventually get a "prize" and then walked away. Give it more life, give it meaning, make it more spontaneous and natural. One of the reasons I said KoToR to a lesser extent was because I thought they did a decent job on the Bastila/Reavan romance. There was an actual impact that could be felt, a meaningful choice that had to be made, and it felt more in tune with the story and with everything going on. I thought Morrigan and the Warden was decent as well simply because it did take a small step beyond the typical minigame approach and gave more to the story.

Now obviously both of those tied directly into the main storyline and we don't need that happening in every game, but conflict doesn't necessarily have to be tied into the main story arc. Conflict also doesn't have to be on a grand scale, there can be subtle things that contribute and add depth to the story and the characters. Choices and consequences that go a step beyond whether or not you hit the tent together tonight or have a pittance effect on the friendship meter, separate the relationship and the greater good aspects. Make it more involved and let there be an impact one can feel, there were a lot of missed oppurnities in DA:O.

As for examples, I can think of quite a few but the problem is the plot centers around a love story so it's not really a fair compairson. Games that employ it in a smiliar fashion to the typical Bioware approach all suffer from the same problems, I just don't think it's treated with much importance and is seen more as a gimick rather then a tool that can be used to further the story and characters.

Is that a serious question? Why wouldn't you pick that? Quests and characters are the heart of an RPG.

As are story, choices, and character development. And these are represented through dialouge and if done well and be conveyed much better through a conversations and relationship type scenario then a quest.

The point I was trying to make though is these type of suggestions are, as you say, gimmicks just as romance is. What makes one gimmick better than the other?

I don't recall too many "kill 50 spiders" quests in DA. I assumed it
went without saying that I would want the same quality of quests as in
the original game, not WoW-style "quests".

There were quite a few, actually they laid on the majority. All the Irregulars and the Chantry Boards, Lothering, almost all of of Orzammar and the Forest, Red Cliff and Denerim were a little better. It was almost all fetch this, kill that, deliever my message, collect those. Really aside from the main quests themselves there were few exceptions from the "WoW Style" quests. Quality is subjective, I'd exchange the romances in DA:O for several quests rivaling the scale of The Sacred Ashes, I wouldn't exchange them for another two dozen extra chantry board and irregular quests.

You think quests and characters qualify as fat in an RPG? Really? Then, what's the meat?

How are good quests and interesting characters "quick and cheap additions"?

The meat is the story, the part where you actions are accomplishing something to the story and your choices are having an actual impact. Hollow side quests and shallow characters are fat and are what I would consider fat, things that are there just to be there and add a bit of length. You can't tell me a character like dog and quests you picked off the chanters board would be considered interesting characters and good quests. As I said above, it depends on what "quality" we're talking about. 

Also, I never said there was anything wrong with people enjoying the
romance gimmick. I just said that it didn't add anything to my
enjoyment of the game, and given the limited development time, I prefer
that Bioware flesh out the core features of the game, rather than spend
time shoehorning the romance gimmick into the expansion.

Fair enough. I'd actually rather they cut back on some of the simple fetch and kill quests and focus more on characters story and development. That is the center aspect of a Bioware game after all. The overall story and the characters that go along with you.

[shoulderfish]

I'm alright with the romances not being continued -- I can see why they'd do that, etc, etc. But I hope it's at least acknowledged. Like my human noble warrior-ess who got married to Alistair -- it'd be silly if he treated her like the other PC Wardens.

[Booglarize]

 TheMadCat

I agree with you in principle. For me, the best example of romances I've seen in a video game was Baldur's Gate 2. Even discounting the fact that you could continue them into the expansion (which I think was fairly important), the way in which the romances unfolded within the game was quite well-done - particularly Viconia's. The writing and pacing was just really top-notch. I think it had to be, because there were so few bells and whistles to fall back on - no sordid cutscenes, no "achievement" for sleeping with someone - heck, even the voice-acting was sparse; 80-90% of the lines were just text. So for me, that game is what I measure other games against when it comes to romance (and plenty of other things besides).

Now, it's been a while since I played Jade Empire, and back when I did I don't think I pursued any in-game romances, so I can't speak for that... with KOTOR, Bastila was the obvious standout - I think they could've worked on the Carth romance a bit more for female characters. Juhani was also an interesting idea, but could've been more fleshed out.

I actually thought Dragon Age did a pretty decent job, and Morrigan was the standout romance particularly because it didn't end after you slept with her... the relationship essentially unravels due to her own insecurities after a brief period when it looks like it really might work. Alistair has similar complexities, though you can actually salvage it under certain circumstances. So all in all, I thought it was pretty decent on that front.

However, I think they could have dispensed with some of the silliness. I mean, I know it's all the rage, but there's really no need to turn everything into an "achievement". Seeing a tiny heart-shaped medal labelled "Witch Gone Wild" pop up right after what I thought should have been a fairly serious and emotional moment really was quite ridiculous, and a little jarring as well. And the cutscenes - dear lord, the cutscenes. They weren't just bad, they were hilariously bad. I mean, if you can't make at least a token effort to do a proper scene (like with the Mass Effect games - the scenes were passable, if not perfect), I think it'd be best to just leave them out altogether. 

All in all, I think Dragon Age was on the right track, but a few minor changes could have made things much better. 

Modifié par Booglarize, 12 mars 2010 - 03:49 .

[Aybeden]

Booglarize wrote...

.........

All in all, I think Dragon Age was on the right track, but a few minor changes could have made things much better. 

I agree. Dragon Age Origins is the only game to date where the romance options really did help to make the characters seem somehow more real to me and that did draw me much more deeply into the game than I had expected. However, the "achievements" just trivialised things and had the opposite effect on me. I also agree the cut scenes could have been done better. The cuddling in underclothes just looked ridiculous. I 'd rather there be some sort of cut scene than not because I think they do add something and give a sort of "closure" to the moment if done well and tenderly, and they need to be meaningful.

As for the love interest characterisations,  I thought Morrigan was particularly well done, with all her switches of mood and her jealousies and then her inability to handle falling in love. Leliana too, with her personal conflicts, which you could attempt to resolve for her in different ways. She is much more subtle and "slow burn", which helped to draw me in further, and she can throw up some suprises. She has an excellent back-story. The two of them work well together too. I thought both characters offered room for more development. Those two are my favourites so far. I am yet to explore all the characters as deeply, but that is to come (not necessarily all of them as love interests - we do have that choice) as I have started some more games in order to play out some different scenarios (and to use different wardens), including different approaches to the two girls. I'd rather do it that way than attempt to find a "perfect" route first time, if such a thing exists. That replayability is one of the game's strengths imo.

I never regarded the romances as a 'gimmick'. The 'gimmicks' to me were the little side quests, many of which felt like they had been tacked on to pad out the game. Most added little or nothing to the story for me and I'd rather they had used the development time to add another main quest and/or develop the characterisation further.

(P.S. I don't think anyone has mentioned the music. I thought it very atmospheric, e.g. that in camp. It added to the romantic interludes.)

Modifié par Aybeden, 12 mars 2010 - 05:07 .

[Bratt1204]

Default137 wrote...

Haerja wrote...

Default137 wrote...


What?

Maybe Bioware should just drop the whole RPG developer thing, and just switch to making Dating Sims, according to these forums, they'd retain 90% of their fanbase, as their fans don't seem to care about choices, or actual plot development as long as they can chase after their pixelated love interest, and they'd probably make more money that way in the long run.

soo the handling of sacrificed characters is a prime example for plot development? or the choices i make are only relevant as long as they concern strictly business?
and the whole dating sims thing is ridiculous. when it's all about choices and rp, then i  should be allowed to say that i dislike the cuts in my pcs personal story without being stigmatized as a twelve year old girl -.-

Would you rather the people of a small fishing village know the happenings of the Brecellian Forest, down to an absolute tee? Or how about they are all so well versed in the politics of the world they know exactly what happened at Orzammar, even down the the fact you sent a Dwarf to the Chantry, oh yes, I'm sure those poor peasant fishermen know all about the former Gray Wardens exploits, every single one of them.

Or how about we add some cameos there to, why not make it so the cameos that would normally appear for a surviving Warden also appear for a Orlesian, because you made the sacrifice, would they make you feel better because people recognize your choices? Oh hi, you should remember me, I'm Jowan, the mage you saved on your previous save! THANKS A BUNCH, HERE IS SOME STUFF.

None of the choices in the first game mattered enough to carry over, besides small cameo stuff, no matter what you did, you ended up saving the Mage Tower, gained allies from Brecellian, solved the Dwarves problems, and saved Redcliffe, you also restablished royalty, why would the Orlesian Warden be dicking around with Alistair or Anora, or even be talking to them, he is there to rebuild a castle, and find out what happened, not write a book about a dead person?

Some people are so busy stressing over minor **** it amazes me, "OH NO, I CAN'T ADVANCE MY ROMANCE? THIS IS THE BIGGEST DEAL IN THE GAME, I CARE NOTHING FOR PLOT OR CHARACTER, I CAN'T HAVE ALISTAIR MY WORLD IS ENNNNNDING'. "OH NO, PEOPLE DISLIKE AN ORLESIAN, AND HE DOESN'T GET TALKED TO BY THE ROYALTY, HOW DARE THEY REMOVE MY CHOICES, DESPITE THE FACT NOBODY WOULD KNOW THIS ****, I DEMAND YOU ALTER WHAT PEOPLE SHOULD KNOW SO I GET PROPER RESPECT!"

Yes, my world will end if I cannot romance Alistair in Awakening.

[BabyJenni]

I'm a girl-gamer and although I enjoy a fairly wide range of games, Dragon Age really hit the heights for me because of the romance options which made the game unique.  I also like to imagine boys got a great deal from it too and took this to be evidence of the growing maturity of gaming and gamers.

So no romance options in the Awakenings is a massive disappointment for me.  Its like being forced to watch an action film without a love interest - God knows there are plenty of games which already fulfil that template.

I reserve final judgement til I play the expansion but on the face of it, I'm rather dismayed and see it as a opportunity lost for Bioware.

[D-Bit]

Yeah, I just saw Awakening came out and was interested to see what

new companions were out and no romances and that kind of thing.



This is really disappointing.



I'll skip on this one until it gets cheaper. Don't get me wrong, I love the

combat and everything in game, but one of the biggest draws in RPGs

are the more 'story' aspect and interacting with other characters and

romance is a big part of that. (The sex scenes are nice but not necessary

in the least.)



And to people that keep trolling saying it's not a big deal, or just making

fun of those that are disappointed.... stick to Halo and Gears of War.



Why do books, movies, shows, or anything need romance? Well cause people

that are older then 16 enjoy that type of thing and find cutting off heads over and

over a bit boring. RPG's are an avenue for more interesting stories and romance.

I have girlfriend, who plays the game too, and it has nothing to do with sex, but

it's fun exploring those options.



Anyway! Still love Dragon age and bioware! Just next time remember people that

enjoy romance thing at times. I wasn't going to post anything, but I wanted to voice

my opinion so they know why I'm not picking it up.

[Unseen_Reaper]

ok ok now you forum people got me joining the fray i am disipointed that romance doesnt carry over but all i've hurd about is alistar so hopefully liliana's romance will! if not that could be a good thing cause they are trying to promote you to expore other relationships and get in that kind of depth with the new companions your going to be picking up upon the way so maybe just use this opertunity to explore the new charater romance but i bet you that relationships with tag along charaters such as zevran, orghren lilana and other charaters that you can ask to join you at the end party carry over besides the story would be weird being king or queen going and doing a full fleged wardens job leading a kingdom is one thing but fighting hordes of darkspawn and leading ferelden is to much! Take it from a guy thats played the game 13times and has a platinum explore the relationships with the new charaters!

[Lolkaysea]

So I stopped reading at one point idk I got bored.



A few hours into Awakenings and it's pretty good. I wish more choices would've carried over. But I liked the way romances affected your teammates responses to you. I liked that, and the additional banter.



also WTF bioware I still can't romance a male mage why do you break my heart like this

[evaporate]

Just to clarify (I have been playing the game for over 10 hours now), your new companions can still fall in love with your character - there's just no 'tent' option. I didn't know this at first, so I jokingly selected the flirty/romantic dialogue tree with Anders on my female elf, and by the time his approval was +97, it was listed as Love instead of Friendly.



Don't know if Nathaniel or any of the other characters are 'lovable' yet.

[Per Bialaska]

The way I see it, it's your own choice whether you'll pursue romance or not. For me the romance has added a lot of depth and character development.



My City Elf Warden lost her betrothed when he gave his life to save her (the origin story), so for the entire game that character chose to be simply friends with the team, wearing the wedding ring on one finger the entire game.



In another my Human Noble started out supporting Alistair after Duncan's death and as time passed, they fell in love. And it was kinda neat telling Anora to go away, when she tried to get her claws into him. It is kinda rewarding to hear Alistair announce you as future Queen of Ferelden in the post-coronation.



My male human Warden ended up marrying Queen Anora in a political marriage, but Leilana (the character's love interest) decided to stay in Denerim and be the Warden's mistress. In other games where I've paid less interest to Leilana, she has left Denerim to lead some archaological team.



So in my opinion the romance options add a lot to the game and in the games where I've focused the loving on one character I have learned much more about that character than I've learned by simply being their friends.

[Shadowgamegirl]

Per Bialaska wrote...

The way I see it, it's your own choice whether you'll pursue romance or not. For me the romance has added a lot of depth and character development.

My City Elf Warden lost her betrothed when he gave his life to save her (the origin story), so for the entire game that character chose to be simply friends with the team, wearing the wedding ring on one finger the entire game.

In another my Human Noble started out supporting Alistair after Duncan's death and as time passed, they fell in love. And it was kinda neat telling Anora to go away, when she tried to get her claws into him. It is kinda rewarding to hear Alistair announce you as future Queen of Ferelden in the post-coronation.

My male human Warden ended up marrying Queen Anora in a political marriage, but Leilana (the character's love interest) decided to stay in Denerim and be the Warden's mistress. In other games where I've paid less interest to Leilana, she has left Denerim to lead some archaological team.

So in my opinion the romance options add a lot to the game and in the games where I've focused the loving on one character I have learned much more about that character than I've learned by simply being their friends.

Half of those things you did, I did too.

When Tamlen died on my Dalish Elf Origin, it broke my heart. My character remained single untill Zevran came in. (Absolultly love that guy)

It still peeved me how Morrigan treated my male elven mage when you know she loved him too. Hope I see her again.

I'm not destroyed over the fact that you can't have romances. Just play awakening, flirt when you can, then hope for romances in the next one. Bioware said that they were already going to do another romance thing. So get over it.

Those who don't like it. Don't  worry about it and don't do it. Keep playing and what not.

Those who do like it. Join the club. Don't through a **** fit because one expansion pack doesn't have it. Don't buy it if you don't like it.

There's my input. Now I'm going to go play Awakening. I want to get back at the Architect for what he did in "The Calling."

~Azure~

[SweRaider]

well I got a little happy seeing the last ending text in awakening, something like "sweraider traveled together with leliana on exciting adventures..." I understand bioware, aslong as they dont cut out any of the main characters in mass effect I will be so happy about me3

[Suilebhain]

No time for the ol' In-Out, luv. I'm just here to read the meter!

[Xzodia]

Bah, relationships do add character development but removing all the original companions was just dumb. I would not have minded if it was just 1 that left (Morrigan for eg) or maybe 2, but like reading a book imagine if the second book contained NO characters that you were gripped to in the first. You'd just put it down. It felt like i was starting again. So didnt play it

[Verywierd]

Apart from the romance is good/bad thing, there is another aspect to it, which actually affects the combat gameplay (for me at least). This is the fact that I am actually taking a girlfriend/lover into battle with me. Because of my emotional investment in her, it affects my combat strategies and tactics.



For instance,I find that I am constantly pausing during combat to check on whether she is in danger.



If (say) Leliana gets separated from the others and is being attacked by several enemies, I am strongly tempted to go to her aid even though the main mass of enemies are attacking from the other side of the field and the others need my help more.



The romance (and sex) just add context to the fact that it becomes much harder to treat all the companions equally as pawns to be simply moved around the tactical chessboard, when one of them is a bit more special.



Some may not agree, but I find it adds an interesting additional dimension to the combat.