125 réponses à ce sujet

[Andorfiend]

Okay. I've resolved the landsmeet, gone to Redcliff and now I'm back in Denerim. I know what Lohgain's motivation was. I know what the great secret of the Grey Wardens is.

ARE YOU KIDDING ME!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

This whole freaking mess is solely because the Grey Wardens are so ****ing emo they think they have to sucker people into being Grey Wardens? "Woe is us! One person every 3 or 4 hundred years has to die killing an arch-demon! No one would ever join our ranks if they knew they might have to die to achieve eternal glory and single-handedly save the entire world. Boo hoo hoo." WHAT THE ****! Every frigging town guard in the world risks death on a daily basis patrolling the streets for a steady paycheck. What's so bad about the Grey Wardens deal? What, you go mad in 40 years? How many soldiers expect to have a 40 year combat career? The dark spawn taint seems to be a life extender from what I can tell. At least compared to the average lifespan in a world with lousy sanitation and no cure disease spells.

Loghain was still an idiot since all he had to do was not declare himself regent and his plan would have worked perfectly. His devoted daughter was still the Queeen after all. Not that I can for the life of me figure out what legal basis he had for declaring a regency when a Monarch in her majority already sat on the throne. But if he had know the blight couldn't be ended without the Grey Wardens he probably wouldn't have gone ahead and killed them all. He would have just made sure the got more recruits from inside Ferelden.

GAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!! Plots that depend solely on people who ought to trust each other and/or work together not communicating are my single most hated sort of plot in the world. *HEADDESK*

[Sarah1281]

Well, the Joining ritual is most likey blood magic and if people knew that the Wardens carried the taint and eventually became darkspawn (or possibly broodmothers) then they would be a lot less trusted and respected and no one would want to join up. Not to mention that the Joining itself kills a lot of people and who wants to drink all that blood?



Besides, we're really not sure what happens to the Grey Warden once they kill the Archdemon. Two souls try and inhabit the same body equals a dead body but does it destroy or damag the souls? If it doens't then I don't see why the Archdemon wouldn't try and go into the Grey Warden, kill the Grey Warden, then keep looking. Orwould it really be feasible for that to destroy the Archdemon's soul but leave the Grey Warden's soul nice and intact. If you sacrifice your very soul for the job...well, a lot less people would be volunteering.

[Vengeful Nature]

Brool Cory Sto.

As for Loghain's plan working perfectly, it wouldn't have. It doesn't matter if your OFFICIALLY the regent or not, doing what Loghain does is gonna get yourself a date with Bladey McEdge.

Modifié par Vengeful Nature, 10 mars 2010 - 10:06 .

[xzxzxz701]

For starters every Grey Warden is called by the darkspawn 30 years after they take their joining and then they have to go to the deep roads to die, another thing is very fe people survive the joining so yes I would this that being a Grey Warden is much more dangerus than being a guard. Loghain thought he was doing what was best for Ferelden, and it is said in the game that Anora and Loghain argued alot so I don't think the nobles would just let Anora be ruled by Loghain and Loghain really being the king.

[Sarah1281]

Also, Loghain doesn't believe in the Blight until after the South had fallen, he thinks the Grey Wardens are all Orlesian since they were only let back into Ferelden after being exiled twent years or so ago and so many of them were foreign (possibly Orlesian). The taint doesn't drives you mad, it makes you a darksapwn in THIRTY years. Just look at Tamlen from the Dalish Origin if you want to see what happes to a normal tainted person. Whie thirty years doesn't seem to bad, the fact everyone seems to treat it like a death sentence could mean that people do naturally live longer.



And it is possible that the banns would have started a civil war anyway fighting over who to put on the throne since Anora is tehnically considered a commoner, has no heir, and would have the same authority as a female Cousland ruler (Princess-consort). You'll note that if Alistair dies in the Blight, a Cousland can't become Queen on her own and Anora takes over.

[Sylvius the Mad]

They have to sucker people into joining because the joining itself kills a bunch of people.

[Gill Kaiser]

Let's see:

1) The Joining often kills Grey Warden recruits.
2) The taint decreases your lifespan to ~30 years after the Joining. You slowly go insane.
3) You are unlikely to ever have children, or indeed a normal life.
4) The whole purpose of the Joining is so that you can die killing the Archdemon.

You really think it's surprising they keep it a secret? Nobody but the suicidal would ever join them otherwise.

Modifié par Gill Kaiser, 10 mars 2010 - 10:32 .

[Sarah1281]

Plus even if people were okay dying to slay the Archdemon, how do you explain that only a Grey Warden can do it (literally, not an exaggeration or because they are darkspawn-killing experts) without explaining about the taint?

[Nonvita]

You have a high probability of dying in the Joining. Even if you survive, you will never have the chance at a normal life again.
You will spend the rest of your life being hunted by darkspawn (they can sense you, like you can sense them), and there is no way to run away from that.
You will slowly go insane and nightmares will haunt you for the rest of your life.
It's not just about defeating the AD- you are contracted into service to fight against the darkspawn for the rest of your life, so you have a far higher chance to die than mere town guards.
It's ~30 years for the taint to turn you into a ghoul, though it's likely less, especially for those with lots of exposure to darkspawn. It is an early death, even if you don't die before that.

And you overerestimate Loghain's faith in the GWs. He didn't believe in the Blight, and it's likely he wouldn't have believed the GWs were necessary to defeat the AD.

Andorfiend wrote...

Plots that depend solely on people
who ought to trust each other and/or work together not communicating
are my single most hated sort of plot in the world. *HEADDESK* ../../../images/forum/emoticons/crying.png

Just wanted to add that you must hate politics and International Relations. Because this is how the world works, if you didn't realize.

Modifié par Nonvita, 10 mars 2010 - 10:54 .

[Gill Kaiser]

Yeah, the main issue is that being a Grey Warden isn't a job, it's a state. An irreversible state which inevitably leads to premature death and a life of constant battle.

[Kileyan]

What bothers me is we now know the Darkspawn are not all mindless zombies. There are some intelligent ones with much independent thought. How long has this cycle of Grey Warden kill the big momma dark spawn been going on? How was this secret kept? You would think the Darkspawn would have been using agents to spread the truth and propaganda warfare about the "secret" of the Grey Wardens, so as to cut down on the possible recruits the Grey Wardens can obtain. A little bit of propaganda warfare would likely have had people end the Wardens right of conscription a long time ago.



As for Loghain, he isn't really worth some deep discussion about his motives, He was a power mad, egotistical greedy politician. Very simple, shallow, shady and evil character. He wasn't saving the kingdom for altruistic reasons, he was only saving them because he wanted to be the big hero and king, and its hardly much fun to be a king of a dead kingdom. No one to bow to you:)

[Andorfiend]

NNNgggg. Have none of you heard of the French Foreign Legion? The hashishiyyin? Suicide bombers? People sign up for jobs they don't expect to return from ALL THE TIME! For a variety of reasons. Not a valid excuse for keeping it secret.

Can't have children? A) None of the lore says so. Sounds great for the already infertile then. C) Neither do any number mystical sects like many RW priesthoods. Hell some people used to voluntarily become eunchs in order to gain political power. Some fringe cults still include castration. Still not a good excuse.

Secret membership ritual rumoured to kill the weak? Yeah, that line has stopped SOOOOOOO many collegefreshmen from pledging. More seriously many warrior societies included joining ritals which could kill you. Still not an excuse.

Also "Adulthood plus 30~40 years" is NOT a short lifespan by the standards of a society without modern sanitation and medicine. Yes magic is better than medicine for healing wounds. Apparently not for poison or disease, and disease is what usually kills you. So still shot down.

"People might know we are tainted, Woe unto poor doomed, tragic us." Bull****. That crap attacts candidates and they knew it. Furthermore plenty of warrior societies IRL have done similar things or worse in their joining rituals as a means of psychologically binding members to the group and I don't for a second believe that no one at Bioware knew it.

So the whole Dark Secret of the Grey Warden thing was egreiously stupid and unbelievable. I flat don't buy it. Consider my suspension of disbelief revoked. And without it being a secret Logain's whole motivation falls apart.

Not that it held together for a single second anyway. If his whole motivation was that he didn't want the Orlesian Grey Wardens entering the country, then simply destroying the Darkspawn at Ostagar as he was supposed to do would have done the trick!! Besides at that strategy meeting Cailian seemed to know that killing Archdemons is a Grey Warden's job, why doesn't Loghain?

I wonder how many people died because Duncan was too much of a weenie to bite the bullet and tell people the truth.

Modifié par Andorfiend, 11 mars 2010 - 12:17 .

[Andorfiend]

Nonvita wrote...

Andorfiend wrote...

Plots that depend solely on people
who ought to trust each other and/or work together not communicating
are my single most hated sort of plot in the world. *HEADDESK* ../../../images/forum/emoticons/crying.png

Just wanted to add that you must hate politics and International Relations. Because this is how the world works, if you didn't realize.

Yes. In the real world many people die because people don't talk or don't listen or don't believe each other. I do hate this. Are you saying you don't?

It is a fine and believeable plot element when discussing people who have good reason not to trust each other. I have much more of a problem with it when it's amoung allies who have every reason to trust each other. For example, what reason does Loghain have to hate or mistrust Duncan who is half-ferelden and half-Rivainese? Knowing that Loghain has the King's ear and is in charge of strategy why didn't Duncan try to enlist his aid in convincing Cailin to be sensible, or at least fill him in on what he knows and how he knows it. I mean for god's sake the Grey Wardens taint can't be that big a secret, you run into a dozen NPCs who can sense it on you!

[errant_knight]

Kileyan wrote...

What bothers me is we now know the Darkspawn are not all mindless zombies. There are some intelligent ones with much independent thought. How long has this cycle of Grey Warden kill the big momma dark spawn been going on? How was this secret kept? You would think the Darkspawn would have been using agents to spread the truth and propaganda warfare about the "secret" of the Grey Wardens, so as to cut down on the possible recruits the Grey Wardens can obtain. A little bit of propaganda warfare would likely have had people end the Wardens right of conscription a long time ago.

As for Loghain, he isn't really worth some deep discussion about his motives, He was a power mad, egotistical greedy politician. Very simple, shallow, shady and evil character. He wasn't saving the kingdom for altruistic reasons, he was only saving them because he wanted to be the big hero and king, and its hardly much fun to be a king of a dead kingdom. No one to bow to you:)

Hmm.... This makes me wonder what the Architect actually is.... Idle speculation, might the architect actually be a Grey Warden who lived long enough for the taint to reach its end conclusion?

[thegreateski]

I'll go ahead and point out the obvious.



This thread is dumb.



The joining kills a bunch of people, how would you like to join an order where the chances of surviving the initiation are very low?

[Kimarous]

Gill Kaiser wrote...

Let's see:

1) The Joining often kills Grey Warden recruits.
2) The taint decreases your lifespan to ~30 years after the Joining. You slowly go insane.
3) You are unlikely to ever have children, or indeed a normal life.
4) The whole purpose of the Joining is so that you can die killing the Archdemon.

You really think it's surprising they keep it a secret? Nobody but the suicidal would ever join them otherwise.

Add that to the fact that nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition... erm, I mean, nobody knows when the Blight is going to hit. It's been four hundred years since the last Blight. Even if people were willing to join despite these rather harsh conditions, as the OC thinks, how many do you think would appreciate this "glory" if they just get to fulfill Line 2 of the order's motto? Many wardens have lived and died through centuries of peace... and for what? Even if those Wardens themselves accepted their situation, I doubt the world at large (especially the families of said Wardens) would...

[Kileyan]

Andorfiend wrote...


It is a fine and believeable plot element when discussing people who have good reason not to trust each other. I have much more of a problem with it when it's amoung allies who have every reason to trust each other. For example, what reason does Loghain have to hate or mistrust Duncan who is half-ferelden and half-Rivainese? Knowing that Loghain has the King's ear and is in charge of strategy why didn't Duncan try to enlist his aid in convincing Cailin to be sensible, or at least fill him in on what he knows and how he knows it. I mean for god's sake the Grey Wardens taint can't be that big a secret, you run into a dozen NPCs who can sense it on you!

Maybe my instant dislike of Loghain influenced how I saw things happen. From my point of view, Loghain did not care one bit about the Grey Wardens, their information or how they obtained it.  They were just some people he would have to share glory with, and that didn't fit into his plans. You seem to be mixing up this Warden secret too much with Loghains motives. Loghain was convinced the Wardens were leeches, using the "excuse" of the dark spawn blight to maneuver into his little game of pawns and political amibition he'd been likely setting up for years.

Whether the Wardens explained they has scouts that learned info, or they explained the dark spawn taint allowing them to sense the Archdaemon, he wouldn't have beleived them. IMHO if they had explained some unprovable magic ability to sense the danger, he'd have scoffed at them and laughed at their 'proof'. His mind was made up before anyone spoke, and nothing would have changed his mind.

Again, from my point of view, even though the Grey Wardens are not political leaders, with motivations to be kings or involved with state affairs, Loghains mind was mad and power hungry, he could not, would not believe that others weren't just as greedy for power, as he was. A bit of paranoia perhaps, he saw enemies in anyone that didn't look to him as the sole possible solution to the troubles plaguing the kingdom.

[Sarah1281]

I'm really not sure where you're getting Loghain as glory-seeking from considering how snide he was about Cailin's glory-seeking tendencies.

[Nonvita]

Andorfiend wrote...

Yes. In the real world many people die because people don't talk or don't listen or don't believe each other. I do hate this. Are you saying you don't?

It has nothing to do with whether I like them being secretive or not. I'm saying that you seem to find it makes for a weak plot, yet that's how the real world is. 'If only people had been less secretive, then everything would have been great!' you say. Well, that's fine and dandy, but people are secretive. Saying it's stupid doesn't change that.

[mousestalker]

So, what the OP wants is for people to behave unrealistically in a roleplaying game? Because any time you have people, you have politics.



I will concede this. It would be fun, if just once in a Bioware game, you (as the PC) could go somewhere to ask for help and they actually give it. Have a completely fake out quest that requires one conversation to fulfill. "Greetings Starpoker, will the unicorns live up to their treaty obligations and come fight the darkspawn? Why yes, Grey Warden, just tell us when and where and we will be there." Would that be cool or what?

[Kileyan]

Sarah1281 wrote...

I'm really not sure where you're getting Loghain as glory-seeking from considering how snide he was about Cailin's glory-seeking tendencies.

A double standard? If I recall, he was mostly snide about Callins hero worships of the Wardens. He didn't like these non-political people stepping into his grand game. Seemed obvious to me, he met the one faction of people he couldn't herd into his schemes of power via bribes, threats or blackmail, so he wiped them out and anyone else who was in the way.

I call it glory seeking, but his sick mind was convinced only he could save the kingdom. He may have convinced himself he wasn't doing it for power and glory, but he didn't convince me:)

[Kileyan]

mousestalker wrote...


I will concede this. It would be fun, if just once in a Bioware game, you (as the PC) could go somewhere to ask for help and they actually give it. Have a completely fake out quest that requires one conversation to fulfill. "Greetings Starpoker, will the unicorns live up to their treaty obligations and come fight the darkspawn? Why yes, Grey Warden, just tell us when and where and we will be there." Would that be cool or what?

LOL, that would rank right up there with this scenario. Hello Grey Warden, without you our town is doomed and the world will burn to ashes in 3 days. Oh this magical sword in my shop, I wouldn't think of selling it to the biggest hero in 200 years, its yours for free, anything to help save the world Sir Knight!

[thegreateski]

"Yes I'll help you Warden! No strings attached! Right now! Lets go!"

[Andorfiend]

thegreateski wrote...

I'll go ahead and point out the obvious.

This thread is dumb.

The joining kills a bunch of people, how would you like to join an order where the chances of surviving the initiation are very low?

Remember the Memphis Belle? B-17 in WW2? Remember what she was famous for? She was the first US  bomber in WW 2 that actually completed a tour of duty. Before her no one had actually made it through 25 missions alive. But the air crews still took off every day, and men back in the states still lied about their ages to sign up.  Thinking no one will sign up for dangerous duty is an insult to human courage.

Besides which depending on your origin story 1 or 2 out of three initiates at your joining are criminals that faced death sentences if Duncan hadn't recuited them. Clearly the Wardens don't have a problem with recuiting jailbirds. It used to be common in the US for judges to offer jail or the Army.

If offered a choice of the rope or the chalice how many people wouldn't take that gamble for another 30+ years of life? Especially given the conditions of the jails in Ferelden.

People today routinely risk their lives for fun. Every Circle mage risks death to become a mage. And the Grey Wardens are certainly no worse a risk than the Legion of the Dead. Do you really think some elves wouldn't jump at the chance to get out of the slums, even at such a risk?

Finally we have no idea how poor the odds are. Daveth died. You didn't. Only one person died at Allisters initiation and we have no idea how many drank from the chalice. So the odds of death are somewhere between 50/50 and
1%? Who knows?

Put it this way. If someone dumped you into Ferelden and your choice was to face Arl Howe's 'justice' or join the Wardens, which would you pick?