125 réponses à ce sujet

[Mlai00]

Getting back to the OP's topic... It's not just a matter of death.

Suicide bombers willingly die because they think they're going to be honoured martyrs in PARADISE.

The GW deal is worse than selling your soul to the Devil:

(1) You willing taint yourself with what the Chantry teaches you as everything evil and unclean in the eyes of God.

(2) If you're the unlucky one to kill an AD, your soul is annihilated. Your soul ceases to exist.

(3) People in Fereldan believe in Chantry/Maker as the truth. It's not just faith in our modern world. Heck, people can see The City every night when they sleep. Imagine if you can see Heaven and Hell every night, and what you see is corroborated by everyone you know. I'd convert the very next day.

(4) Now imagine becoming a GW means [a]your God won't ever want you, and [b]your soul might cease to exist altogether.

[ijustwananame1]

Andorfiend wrote...

ijustwananame1 wrote...



Going by your ceremony, it’s 1/3.

Incorrect. Ser Jory did not die because the ceremony killed him. He died because Duncan killed him after he panicked at the strangeness an unexpectedness of the ceremony.

Ok, judging by that, it's 1/2. Allistair doesn't give any details. Which means you can't use his example.



So, the best idea we have is actually 50%.



But ... going from Allistair, 50% is high. Judging by his tone.



And then, as Cazlee says, Loghain survives his…



So, the answer is, we don’t know and the pool is too small to form an answer.

If Duncan hadn't been trying to sell him a bill of goods it would never have happened. Either he wouldn't have tried to sign on in the first place or it wouldn't have come as a shock. Chalk it up as one more casualty lost amidst the tens of thousands that die due to the policy of silence.

Would he have signed on if he were told? Probably not. Which means that the Wardens still don't get their guy.



And, where are you getting your "tens of thousands" from?



It hardly fits with the impression that the Wardens are a small group.

The reason I mentioned the French foreign legion is becuase it's a place to go when you want to completely escape your old life, and you don't really mind a high risk of death. People do this sort of thing.

Right.



But they're not guaranteed to die, as a Warden is. That's the point. Which is why I said it was a very strange example to give.



The difference is that while there is a chance you could die in the Legion, or any other armed force for that matter, you are not guaranteed to die. You are as a Warden.

In enough numbers to make a famed legion out of. In game the dwarves do the exact same thing, only their joining ceremony is a funeral. To get all that pesky 'hope of survival' crap out of their heads. Can you really say joining the Wardens is a worse idea than joining the legion of the dead?

Not at all. Can you give me proof that the Legion is a large organization? I don't believe you can. Therefore, it might be fair to say that the Legion does not have mass appeal.

You're hung up on the idea that joining the Wardens is a death sentence.

It is.

So is being born my friend. Joining the Wardens might mean you die howling mad in a cavern in thirty years, or you might get run over by a carridge while sprinting away from the recruiter. Humans are really, really good at rationalizing reasons to do stupid things, and frankly joining the Wardens isn't that stupid. It's not a harder or more risky life than almost any mercenary company or army and historical armies were packed with young men eager to join the army to get the hell off the farm or out of the slums. Because farm and slum life suck. A lot. What's better, 30 years of an exciting life with good comerades doing vital, heroic work, or 60 years of toil and misery as a dirt farmer?

So why don't more people join the armed forces in RL?



Perhaps because the idea of getting shot at doesn't appeal to most.



People like life and the majority will do anything to extend it.

Heck I'd join the Wardens if offered the chance. My current life sucks, so why not? My grandparents lived long and healthy lives, so joining would almost certainly reduce my life expectancy by about 20 years. Having seen what death by old age is like however I'm willing to take that chance.

And that's your choice. But, judging by Jory's response, it's certainly not necessarily the choice of all. It would certainly not be my choice.

[Mlai00]

You're arguing on the wrong point. He is right: death is not a deterrent for people, especially where honour, glory, religious fervor, and patriotism are involved. Especially not a deterrent when it's death after 3 decades or so.



However, the idea that you are damned in the eyes of your God, and that your soul will cease to exist... I emphasize that is what ppl will be hesitant about.

[Andorfiend]

krylo wrote...

What the Joining actually IS, is definitely a secret.  No one knows they drink darkspawn blood mixed with archdemon blood and lyrium that has been enchanted.  THAT's secret.

What isn't, and couldn't be, secret is the fact that there's a chance of the initiates not surviving the ritual.

The mages know about it since they have to enchant it. And the Templars know since they vet everything mages do. Which means the Chantry also knows about it since the Templars do not keep secrets from their drug peddling masters. So if Duncan had wanted to convince Loghain he could have called on all three groups to back his word.

As for the dangers of the ritual itself, Ser Jory seemed not to know, but then again Ser Jory is an idiot so that may have no bearing. Bioware clearly knew this was a huge freaking hole in the plot since they spend so much time and dialogue in the game trying to excuse it. Hanging a lampshade on it, to use the TV idiom.

[Swifty]

Andorfiend wrote...

thegreateski wrote...

I'll go ahead and point out the obvious.

This thread is dumb.

The joining kills a bunch of people, how would you like to join an order where the chances of surviving the initiation are very low?

Remember the Memphis Belle? B-17 in WW2? Remember what she was famous for? She was the first US  bomber in WW 2 that actually completed a tour of duty. Before her no one had actually made it through 25 missions alive. But the air crews still took off every day, and men back in the states still lied about their ages to sign up.  Thinking no one will sign up for dangerous duty is an insult to human courage.

Besides which depending on your origin story 1 or 2 out of three initiates at your joining are criminals that faced death sentences if Duncan hadn't recuited them. Clearly the Wardens don't have a problem with recuiting jailbirds. It used to be common in the US for judges to offer jail or the Army.

If offered a choice of the rope or the chalice how many people wouldn't take that gamble for another 30+ years of life? Especially given the conditions of the jails in Ferelden.

People today routinely risk their lives for fun. Every Circle mage risks death to become a mage. And the Grey Wardens are certainly no worse a risk than the Legion of the Dead. Do you really think some elves wouldn't jump at the chance to get out of the slums, even at such a risk?

Finally we have no idea how poor the odds are. Daveth died. You didn't. Only one person died at Allisters initiation and we have no idea how many drank from the chalice. So the odds of death are somewhere between 50/50 and
1%? Who knows?

Put it this way. If someone dumped you into Ferelden and your choice was to face Arl Howe's 'justice' or join the Wardens, which would you pick?

I thought the whole Gray Warden idea was just evil, myself.

We're talking about a place where criminals are tortured and executed for being hungry and stealing a loaf of bread, here. Given the lot of the elves and the commoners--getting some free food, a roof over one's head and sovereign or two in one's pocket--secrecy is not necessary--it's arrogance. The French Foreign Legion has more recruits than it can handle, their policies are no secret and less than 50% will make it out alive after their contract completes. And it still goes on in our so-called "civilized age.

I saw the GW being secretive from sheer arrogance. "See? We're special! We have a big sekrit!" They manipulate, lie and decieve their recruits at every turn. Frankly I found it Jim Jonesian. Hey kid, drink the poison!

If no,t the other option, writing-wise is that their agenda is more than dragon-jumping--it's mercenary political power.

[Swifty]

Mlai00 wrote...

Getting back to the OP's topic... It's not just a matter of death.
Suicide bombers willingly die because they think they're going to be honoured martyrs in PARADISE.
The GW deal is worse than selling your soul to the Devil:
(1) You willing taint yourself with what the Chantry teaches you as everything evil and unclean in the eyes of God.
(2) If you're the unlucky one to kill an AD, your soul is annihilated. Your soul ceases to exist.
(3) People in Fereldan believe in Chantry/Maker as the truth. It's not just faith in our modern world. Heck, people can see The City every night when they sleep. Imagine if you can see Heaven and Hell every night, and what you see is corroborated by everyone you know. I'd convert the very next day.
(4) Now imagine becoming a GW means [a]your God won't ever want you, and [b]your soul might cease to exist altogether.

That idea might be viable except many NPC do not believe in "The Maker" including the starving alienage elves who would likely jump at the chance for a warm bed and food for the next 30 years before the taint gets them. With the plague rates and starvation--their life expectancy is far less.

How about runaway Orlesean slaves? Would they not want to jump ship? Ex-crows hoping to get out before they're murdered etc. We keep running into people all over Fereldon for whom the GW deal would be clearly appealing.

None of the apostates believe in the Maker, obviously.

As well, although many people in a society pay lip service to religion to keep the peace, there are plenty who don't actually believe.

[Andorfiend]

ijustwananame1 wrote...

And, where are you getting your "tens of thousands" from?

The whole plot of the game is driven by Cailan and Loghain's ignorance of the Wardens and the Archdemon. If Duncan has the testicular fortitude to 'fess up the Blight could have been stopped at Ostagar.

So let's see who dies due to the 'important secret':

Cailan's army at Ostagar which seems to be at least a few thousand strong. The town of Lothering. The inhabitants of Caslte Redcliff and the villiage who die both due to Jowan's interference and the later darkspawn invasion. A few hundered at least. (And don't say it would have happened anyway, according to a Templar in Howe's dungeon Loghain saves Jowan from a Templar hunting party.) Everyone attacked on the roads by darkspawn north of Ostagar. Unknown but probably hundreds. The inhabitants of the capital city of Dennerim which was sacked and burnt by the darkspawn. Tens of thousands at least. All the little Banns which fell to the Darkspawn. Hundreds to thousands.

The Archdemon may have been the badguy, but Duncan's little secret was it's most important ally.

[Swifty]

Andorfiend wrote...



Can't have children? A) None of the lore says so. Sounds great for the already infertile then. C) Neither do any number mystical sects like many RW priesthoods. Hell some people used to voluntarily become eunchs in order to gain political power. Some fringe cults still include castration. Still not a good excuse.

Secret membership ritual rumoured to kill the weak? Yeah, that line has stopped SOOOOOOO many collegefreshmen from pledging. More seriously many warrior societies included joining ritals which could kill you. Still not an excuse.


So the whole Dark Secret of the Grey Warden thing was egreiously stupid and unbelievable. I flat don't buy it. Consider my suspension of disbelief revoked. And without it being a secret Logain's whole motivation falls apart.

Actually I ran into a number of NPC's during the game who didn't nark out my MC as a GW because they said their parent/grandparent was a GW. So much for the childlessness aspect.

[Andorfiend]

Mlai00 wrote...

However, the idea that you are damned in the eyes of your God, and that your soul will cease to exist... I emphasize that is what ppl will be hesitant about.

I think it's certainly a stretch to think the Grey Warden's are damned by the taint. The taint may be a malady of the flesh, rather than the spirit. Even if that isn't true the Grey Wardens will certainly claim otherwise, or the Chantry will make a lot of noise about how the Maker will bless them for bearing this burden so others don't have too. Frankly no one knows what the Maker thinks about anything since the prima donna flounces off whenever anyone puts the wrong brand of bottled water in his dressing room.

It is, in any event almost exactly eqiuvalent to the Dwarves self-sacrifice in becoming Golems, and they had plenty of volunteers before the King decided it was also a good way to dispose of the politically inconvenient.

[Andorfiend]

I should state that it's still a great game, I really enjoyed it, and I started another playthrough. But it does rub me the wrong way that they went with this kind of plot. I'm not kidding when I say it's my most hated of all plot devices, especially when they so obviously knew it was a weak point.

[Swifty]

Andorfiend wrote...

I should state that it's still a great game, I really enjoyed it, and I started another playthrough. But it does rub me the wrong way that they went with this kind of plot. I'm not kidding when I say it's my most hated of all plot devices, especially when they so obviously knew it was a weak point.

I'm with you there. It's a good game but there's some serious plot flaws. When I point out that Duncan is purely reprehensible in his actions, the fans go nuts. The fact is he recruited Jory knowing full well he had a wife and kid then gutted him for not drinking the poison. Depending which origin story one plays and how one plays it--he can look pretty abominable and the GW can look very manipulative and dark.

[Darkannex]

I actually ascribe lots of credence to the theory that they keep it a secret because once they are tainted-they would be perceived as ghouls. They are really the definition of it. They are tainted and not dead. Just because they retain their faculties would not change the mind of any others in the least. At the best-they are akin to abominations, at the worst ... they will turn on them and lose what remains of their humanity and kill all around them.

People are that paranoid, yes. They are that unforgiving. It's like telling people - hey--come lose your soul AND your life-cease to be a human. I can see everyone lining up right away.

As for GW having children-they can have children BEFORE becoming a warden. Also-with a non warden parent there is a low chance of having them. As for merely taking criminals, etc...they CAN, but they are known for taking the cream of the crop.  To start ONLY taking criminals who have no options...that would drag down the quality of the order. 

Modifié par Darkannex, 11 mars 2010 - 06:13 .

[I saved Star Wars :D]

As I see it, the Wardens require the absolute finest quality recruits. If it were common knowledge that joining was a death sentence either through killing the archdemon or, more likely as Blights are centuries apart, the slow maddening death of the taint then this would rule out the following groups of people.



Anyone who doesn't fancy it.

Anyone who strongly believes in something else and wants their life to be about that (Templars, First Enchanter etc)

Most people who love their husband or wife (even without the taint...being a Warden isn't a day job and requires you to leave your home and dedicate your life accordingly.)

Most people with Children (see above.)

Anyone who wants children (there is lore about this, despite your statement to the contrary.)



The point is that they narrow their already slim field of recruitment dramatically, because they only want the cream of the crop, if the details were common knowledge. See Ser Jory for an ingame example.



Any nut job can set off a suicide bomb, regardless of their capability, provided they agree to sign up



Not so for being a warden.

[Swifty]

Darkannex wrote...

I actually ascribe lots of credence to the theory that they keep it a secret because once they are tainted-they would be perceived as ghouls. They are really the definition of it. They are tainted and not dead. Just because they retain their faculties would not change the mind of any others in the least. At the best-they are akin to abominations, at the worst ... they will turn on them and lose what remains of their humanity and kill all around them.

People are that paranoid, yes. They are that unforgiving. It's like telling people - hey--come lose your soul AND your life-cease to be a human. I can see everyone lining up right away.

As for GW having children-they can have children BEFORE becoming a warden. Also-with a non warden parent there is a low chance of having them. As for merely taking criminals, etc...they CAN, but they are known for taking the cream of the crop.  To start ONLY taking criminals who have no options...that would drag down the quality of the order. 

Quality of the order? You've got to be joking, right?

Daveth is a cutpurse about to be hanged. And not even a good one because Duncan catches him. [to add to that he has absolutely no theiving skills at all when you try to get him to open chests around the camp] Jory is an idiot and the MC is anything from a murderer to an apostate to an accidently tainted innocent who knows nothing outside his/her campsite.

Your point about the general public's paranoia makes sense. However as pointed out above, half the place knows about the taint, anyway and Templars/mages etc still must see some of their family members or have some outside friends somewhere. I'm sure they have the occassional pint at the pub.

The GW as having any credibility as an honorable fighting force, short of the French Legion variety, doesn't. Another plot hole for them is how are they are financially supporting this organization?

And people signing up? They'd be beating down the doors. It's not modern society it's medieval where the lot of the commoner is cruel and starvation a real possibility.  Even then, as a woman do you want to be a maid or would you learn to wave a sword or pickpocket and join the GW, 30 years later dead or not?

Many people, including Duncan don't have much faith in Chantry lore. Heaven/hell aren't very strong concepts to people who can't survive today. What about parents who would join to send money home to feed their children? There's plenty of them, floating around.

The lore means little if it's simply speculation. The entire country can't be full of dolts.

People telling you they are the sires of other Gray Wardens means something. The Chantry lies all the way throughout the story, both the Templars and the mages have different agendas and different opinions etc. As well, I understand that there are a number of children in the books and other games attached to DO:A born to GW. So that point simply doesn't hold up. NPC's tell you they will hide you because they are the offspring of GW, a number of times.

[Swifty]

As a funny aside to that--if you get caught stealing in camp Duncan doesn't say, "Don't do it" he says, "Don't get caught again, it will cause us problems." <laff>

[syllogi]

I think anyone who wants a deeper understand of what it really means to be a Grey Warden ought to read the Calling -- there's more to the taint, and the Calling itself, than just having a "darkspawn sense" and feeling the urge to go fight darkspawn after a certain number of years. If the general public, and the Chantry, knew more about what the Joining entailed, they would be outraged, and Ferelden wouldn't be the only country to kick the Grey Wardens out.



Considering how horrible Abominations are to the average citizen of Thedas, seeing what a Grey Warden who is near the end of their life becomes would be pretty frightening.

[Sarah1281]

Another plot hole for them is how are they are financially supporting this organization?

In the DLC Soldier's Peak, you find out that former King Arland cut the GW's funding when the Warden-Commander Sophia was using the GW as part of her attempted coup, so I would imagine that at the very least the Crown supports it.

[marbatico]

that and charity, remember that they are a very respected order. i think most smithes would see it as a honor to make arms and armor for the grey wardens.

[Andorfiend]

Darkannex wrote...

I actually ascribe lots of credence to the theory that they keep it a secret because once they are tainted-they would be perceived as ghouls. They are really the definition of it. They are tainted and not dead. Just because they retain their faculties would not change the mind of any others in the least. At the best-they are akin to abominations, at the worst ... they will turn on them and lose what remains of their humanity and kill all around them.  

Who knows what a ghoul is however? I don't recall anyone in the game actually mentioning them. Most people just know the darkspawn taint kills you or makes you wish it did. Darkspawn lore seems pretty rare honestly. Most humans and elves only know them from old stories and the dwarves seem pretty contemptuous of the idea that you need to know anything more than which end of the sword to stick in them. After the blight there are probably going to some ghouls walking around, but as far as I can tell the only thing that is common knowledge is that Wardens are immune to the taint. And it's worth noting that what the Wardens get in the joining is not the bog standard taint. It's a magically modified one. Similar perhaps to how most werewolves are mindless beasts but their curse can be altered to give them minds. So even if darkspawn lore became more common, it would also be known that Wardens are different. 

Spin control is not a modern concept. It could be handled.  

[Wicked 702]

Andorfiend wrote...

Can't have children? A) None of the lore says so. Sounds great for the already infertile then. C) Neither do any number mystical sects like many RW priesthoods. Hell some people used to voluntarily become eunchs in order to gain political power. Some fringe cults still include castration. Still not a good excuse.

Kind of surprised not to see a response on this particular issue. Actually, it is dealt with extensively both in the lore and in the game itself that being a Grey Warden is essentially chemical castration. It is mentioned several times that Grey Wardens have a VERY difficult time having children, if they even can at all.

Play a Human Noble Female and romance Alistair. You actually have a conversation about this exact subject right before Morrigan asks you to do the ritual.

[krylo]

It's said multiple times that Grey Wardens having children is EXTREMELY difficult after they've been tainted. Alistair mentions that all the Grey Wardens he knew with children had them BEFORE they signed up.



That is why you meet people who say that their parent/grandparent was a Grey Warden. Much like Jory, they knocked some chick up (or got knocked up) and then drank the tainted blood.



Don't really care about the argument, but get the lore right, for crissake.

[BrianMCat]

Alternative Prospects of Advancememt in Ferelden- Life expectancy
1.H or D  Noble - Survive Family or external intrigue for your (probably) shortish life { or{H) be found to be a Mage Candidate)

2. Sub Noble -  Join      a)  M) Templars - Lyrium addicts, as in codex . eg Irminric 
                                            F)  Chantry    - Indoctrinated, passive and dependent   
                                          c )      Bann's Army, Guard,  Bandit, Merc,  Assassin etc - Swordfodder

3. D Comm, Both Elves seem to have no  prospects other than fighting  oppressors
4. Mage Candidate- Survive the Harrowing and be controlled by Templars  or become Tranqil or Hunted

Joining may give 30 plus years as a GW , when there's no Blight it sight - the Dwaves don't spot them!  Best option, if you "just happen to run into a GW"  , but most  won't be tapped and die from any of the above.

ptw I  Think   Qrlais,( French Foreign Legion ) and Weisshaupt in (East Prussia) as Teutonic Knights 

[Janni-in-VA]

I'm going to throw one little drop into this conversation and then run. Mages also become Gray Wardens. Duncan mentions it in the Prologue, and of course your mage PC is recruited. I would posit that only Gray Warden mages know how to prepare the blood for the Joining, it's not prepared by just any mage from the Circle. We all know the Templars and the Chantry would scream bloody murder if it were known that the Gray Wardens use blood magic, so there is one very good reason for keeping the exact nature of the Joining a secret. And, Riordin does say that since you and Alistair both are such new recruits and the other Wardens died at Ostagar, you never had the chance to learn all you really needed to know about your Order. Ser Jory does mention that he didn't realize there was another step after recruitment, but Daveth never says anything one way or the other. Certainly, I don't see how anyone could hide the fact that there's some process which might kill you involved in becoming a Gray Warden. It's not as if everyone who joins is a homeless, friendless orphan completely cut off from the rest of the world. However, the exact nature of that process is a closely-guarded secret. Nothing is truly secret in all the world, but the exact nature of the Joining is pretty close.



Loghain's fatal flaw is his hatred and distrust of anything or anyone who might even remotely be connected to Orlais. This hatred is the basis of what he does to the Gray Wardens and King Cailin. Cailin was ready to invite Orlesian forces back into Ferelden to fight the Blight, and the Gray Wardens had only recently (comparatively speaking) returned from exile in....yes, Orlais. The fact that he can accuse even your human noble of being involved with the Orlesians is a measure of how far gone he is.



All right, I threw in two drops. *ducking and running*

[krylo]

Janni is, in my most auspicious opinion, completely correct on the general knowledge of the joining.



I would like to add that Ser Jory is meant to be kind of stupid, so him not knowing things isn't surprising. You can even call him an idiot when you first meet him. Something I regularly do after my first play through.

[SOLID_EVEREST]

Can anyone explain why Ruck never became Grey Warden-like...? He had been eating Darkspawn and survived the taint I wonder why he is just insane. He was only down in the Deep-Roads for like 2 years or so, right...