125 réponses à ce sujet

[Herr Uhl]

SOLID_EVEREST wrote...

Can anyone explain why Ruck never became Grey Warden-like...? He had been eating Darkspawn and survived the taint I wonder why he is just insane. He was only down in the Deep-Roads for like 2 years or so, right...

It wasn't enough corruption. You need to have a lot at once to be able to become a GW.

[KnightofPhoenix]

I agree with the OP that had Loghain known, he wouldn't have done what he did, or at the very least, he would have made sure the Wardens survive.

Whether it is justified for the Wardens to make this a secret is another question. I do not know. Some dwarves willingly go to die in the Legion of the Dead. So would they be afraid of this? I don't think so. Maybe the Warden
view is too pesimistic. But it's also prudent.

EDIT: Also remember this. The Warden ritual is blood magic. It's not in their interest to make everyone know this, lest they lose significant support from Andrastian nations.  

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 12 mars 2010 - 01:44 .

[Thor Rand Al]

Andorfiend wrote...


Who knows what a ghoul is however? I don't recall anyone in the game actually mentioning them. Most people just know the darkspawn taint kills you or makes you wish it did. Darkspawn lore seems pretty rare honestly. Most humans and elves only know them from old stories and the dwarves seem pretty contemptuous of the idea that you need to know anything more than which end of the sword to stick in them. After the blight there are probably going to some ghouls walking around, but as far as I can tell the only thing that is common knowledge is that Wardens are immune to the taint. And it's worth noting that what the Wardens get in the joining is not the bog standard taint. It's a magically modified one. Similar perhaps to how most werewolves are mindless beasts but their curse can be altered to give them minds. So even if darkspawn lore became more common, it would also be known that Wardens are different. 

Spin control is not a modern concept. It could be handled.  

"A Ghoul is a man or woman twisted and corrupted by the darkspawn taint."

http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Ghouls

"Living creatures who contract the Taint from any Darkspawn normally die from the corruption. However, those ill-fated to survive become something twisted: Ghouls, or tainted humanoid creatures with a blotchy look and a sickly tone to their skin.
The term ghoul is actually derived from the behavior and mannerisms associated with people who have become corrupted. It was first observed in captives (humans, elves, and dwarves kept as a source of food) of Darkspawn. The constant, slow exposure to the Taint drove these unfortunate souls to turn on their fellow captives, cannibalizing them whilst in the grips of maddening pain and the will of the Archdemon. Once infected, a ghoul will seek out the Darkspawn. Human ghouls are often used as craftsmen by the Darkspawn (who are not known for the kind of skill required for smithing), but even the healthiest human will die within a few months of having turned.
Only the Grey Wardens have been able to survive the taint by undergoing the joining, but it is revealed later on this is only a temporary escape as with progression of age the taint will spread and either kill or reduce them to Ghouls. The latter in Grey Warden tradition does not happen as "when they begin to hear the call again" from the taint wardens travels to the Deep Roads to seek out an honorable death."

[krylo]

SOLID_EVEREST wrote...

Can anyone explain why Ruck never became Grey Warden-like...? He had been eating Darkspawn and survived the taint I wonder why he is just insane. He was only down in the Deep-Roads for like 2 years or so, right...

He has some Grey Warden-esque properties.  He can sense the taint in you, and he can sense the darkspawn, and they can, presumably, sense him.

However, he just ate straight up darkspawn blood/corpses.  His taint wasn't tempered with magic, lyrium, and archdemon blood.

[Herr Uhl]

krylo wrote...

However, he just ate straight up darkspawn blood/corpses.  His taint wasn't tempered with magic, lyrium, and archdemon blood.

It doesn't have to be tempered. But if they got killed by spiders, they aren't likely to be anything special.

With magic you could make any darkspawn blood do. With (all) archdemon blood, no modification would be needed, or so I've gathered.

[Andorfiend]

In the game Alister says the preparation is a complicated process and you need darkspawn blood, lyrium and magical preparation. We later find out you also need Archdemon blood. It was pretty strongly implied if not outright stated that the circle mages had spent all day prepping for the joining so whatever it is they do it seems to need several mages and involved heavy fade work. Which rules out only Warden Mages doing it since there aren't any at Ostagar. Also I recall a throwaway line from somewhere in the game that the Wardens are only allowed one mage at a time. Whether that's a local restriction on the Ferelden Grey Wardens since their reintroduction or a regular regional thing or simply a new Chantry policy is unknown. It's clear that 100 years ago there were multiple mages at Soldier's Peak. And given Avernus's hobbies it's also clear that maybe there really shouldn't be that many Warden-Mages running around. ;b

[Janni-in-VA]

"Which rules out only Warden Mages doing it since there aren't any at Ostagar."



You never see any Gray Wardens other than Duncan and Alistair, yet we know the Wardens were there. We really have no way of knowing how many Warden mages there were just as we don't know for sure how many Gray Wardens in general are there. I'd love to see a source for your statement that the Wardens could only have one mage at a time. I don't recall running into that assertion, myself.

[Andorfiend]

I think Riordan might have said it? I dunno for sure, I thought it was an odd comment at the time. I'll see if I can nail it down on my next playthrough.

[ijustwananame1]

Mlai00 wrote...

You're arguing on the wrong point. He is right:

In your opinion, which I believe to be wrong.

death is not a deterrent for people, especially where honour, glory, religious fervor, and patriotism are involved. Especially not a deterrent when it's death after 3 decades or so.

That's a joke.

If that were true, why did Jory freak out?

If you can tell me that it wasn't the prospect of blood, death, etc., that made him, a fairly competent fighter, freak out, then I might concede that you have a point.

Death is the ultimate deterrent. Why do you think capital punishment exists in the US?

However, the idea that you are damned in the eyes of your God, and that your soul will cease to exist... I emphasize that is what ppl will be hesitant about.

Presuming that you believe in god.

Which is a fairly impressive assumption given that at least one of the major charecters is an atheist.

[Finriz]

Jory was questioning it from the beginning. He was chided for questioning the ritual from the start.

[Andorfiend]

ijustwananame1 wrote...

Death is the ultimate deterrent. Why do you think capital punishment exists in the US?

Capital Punishment exists in parts of the US because US law descends from English common law which also had Capital Punishment. (Except for Louisianna of course.) It is done because people want what they perceive as justice.

I am aware of no studies tht show capital punishment to be an effective deterrent to criminal activity. Criminals think they won't get caught, otherwise theywouldn't engage in criminal activity. When people do get caught, or don't plan to escape, suicide is not an uncommon occurance.

It is imposible to escape the risk of death no matter what you do. Heck even doing nothing but lying in bed all day puts you at risk for deep vein thrombosis or in extreme cases septic bed sores. The most you can do is judge what you goals are and what your exceptable risk levels are. Is going to work worth the risk of driving a car? Is it better to order the fish and risk high levels of mercury or order the steak and consume all that cholesterol?

Nor is death the worst thing imaginable. It may be for you, but you should be well aware that not everyone shares your sensibilities. If everyone thought as you do there would be no suicide bombers, or soldiers, or fire fighters. But there are. Doctors risk exposure to lethal diseases in order to help people (and make money.) Etc etc etc. You are surrounded every day by people who risk their lives to help others.

[Sabriana]

The line "There is only one GW mage at a time" comes from either the mage who prepares Duncan's bedchamber in the tower, or Wynne. I forget which one, but it's one of those two. Neither are experts in GW rules and regulations, I would say.

[sylvanaerie]

Janni-in-VA wrote...

"Which rules out only Warden Mages doing it since there aren't any at Ostagar."

You never see any Gray Wardens other than Duncan and Alistair, yet we know the Wardens were there. We really have no way of knowing how many Warden mages there were just as we don't know for sure how many Gray Wardens in general are there. I'd love to see a source for your statement that the Wardens could only have one mage at a time. I don't recall running into that assertion, myself.

Its in the mage origin story.  The mage cleaning Duncan's room has a short chat with you about him at one time being considered but he declined becoming a warden. He said the Wardens only have one mage in their ranks at a time.

[Andorfiend]

Right! Thanks guys. It's in the mage origin story, you have to go into the guest room before talking to Irving and speak to the mage who is scrubbing the floor. No idea how good his information is of course.

[sylvanaerie]

Since there was more than one mage in Soldier's Peak, obviously its either a misconception or its a rule created after the events of the rebellion to prevent such a thing as what happened with Avernus from being repeated.

[Sabriana]

I think the old mage was a bit fogged, myself. Aside from that, I don't think the GW would restrict themselves anywhere, including taken the cream of the crop from the mages.

And as a side-note, my mage PC let Avernus live, didn't strip him of his GW-ship, and told him to do humane research, so there are now two mage GWs in Ferelden. Avernus and my PC.

[sylvanaerie]

Yea depending on what I am RPing he lives or dies. My mage (Traumatized by Jowan) killed him, as did my templar. But my Dalish and my HNM spared him (to do humane research only).

I've only done those four play throughs since I got the DLC.  I leave it on a case by case basis and do what "feels right"

Modifié par sylvanaerie, 12 mars 2010 - 09:05 .

[DarkCamel]

It is true that many occupations are hazardous. But occupations (suicide bomber is hardly an occupation) have an expectation of survival, even if slim. Doctors expose themselves to disease, but certainly don't willingly contract fatal diseases in order to become better doctors.



The Wardens also exist during peacetime, where no immediate sacrifice in battle is necessary. Yet members still undergo the joining, which is still a death sentence, and still results in a person becoming a ghoul if they do not die first.



Lastly, there still is the mattter of how society would view the joining if it was not secret. As pointed out, the joining is a blood magic ritual that involves drinking the blood of darkspawn and corrupted Old Gods. The Chantry has great power, and could not approve of the joining. Yes, there are atheists in Thedas. However, the only outspoken atheist we meet was raised in the wilds by a near immortal witch, so she is hardly typical. Net result, the Wardens would not last long in Thedas if the knowledge of the joining were public.

[Vuokseniska]

the way peoplew are recruited as a grey warden thdey are usually derad anyway. i mean as a dwarven noble you are kicked out into the deeproads. as dwarven commoner you are being put to death. ashuman noble duncan saves you, as mage you get saved from templar wrath

[Mlai00]

The perception that there are plenty of atheists in Thedas is an extreme anachronism. Atheism is only popular in contemporary times, with the advent of science. In medieval times, the idea that there is a God as described by the Church is not "theory", it's fact. People of all social ranks and education knew God exists as much as they knew it snows in the winter. It's not even a question.



And "God" would be an even more established fact in Fereldan, compared to medieval Earth, because everyone can see the Black City. It's right there.



The fact that people don't follow the 10 Commandments even though they know God exists, is a matter of human rationalization. But there is no rationalizing away physically drinking the blood of the damned, knowing that it will eventually turn you into one. This "original sin" is the founding tenet of the Chantry, in fact. There is nothing in the world more "damned" than those with the Taint. You can't get more indoctrinated than this.



"Oh the Maker will forgive me." Um, no he won't. Look at all the other poor slobs who became ghouls thru no fault of their own. Did the Maker forgive them?

[Sabriana]

The Maker has apparently turned his back on the people, as my PC points out to Leliana. The dwarfs and the DE also don't worship the maker. I recall only one dwarf in Orzammar who got roped in by the chantry. The dalish do respect Andraste, but despise the chantry and their 'maker'. They have their own gods, iirc.

I thought only mages saw the structure looming in the fade. It's nothing but a structure, without any explanation attached to it other than chantry lore. Dwarfs can't even enter the fade, if I understood D.Gaider correctly. Oghren being the exception because he was forced into it.

Also, both my dalish, and my DC were called 'heathen' by the chantry priest in Ostagar. So while true atheism might not be a factor, there is also no monotheism in Thedas.

[Monica21]

Andorfiend wrote...

In the game Alister says the preparation is a complicated process and you need darkspawn blood, lyrium and magical preparation. We later find out you also need Archdemon blood. It was pretty strongly implied if not outright stated that the circle mages had spent all day prepping for the joining so whatever it is they do it seems to need several mages and involved heavy fade work. Which rules out only Warden Mages doing it since there aren't any at Ostagar. Also I recall a throwaway line from somewhere in the game that the Wardens are only allowed one mage at a time. Whether that's a local restriction on the Ferelden Grey Wardens since their reintroduction or a regular regional thing or simply a new Chantry policy is unknown. It's clear that 100 years ago there were multiple mages at Soldier's Peak. And given Avernus's hobbies it's also clear that maybe there really shouldn't be that many Warden-Mages running around. ;b

There's a quote from Gaider that I'm too lazy/rushed to find right now, but you need darkspawn blood and lyrium or archdemon blood. You don't need them both. The reason you were sent to find darkspawn blood at Ostagar is because the archdemon blood wasn't available.

[ejoslin]

Monica21 wrote...

Andorfiend wrote...

In the game Alister says the preparation is a complicated process and you need darkspawn blood, lyrium and magical preparation. We later find out you also need Archdemon blood. It was pretty strongly implied if not outright stated that the circle mages had spent all day prepping for the joining so whatever it is they do it seems to need several mages and involved heavy fade work. Which rules out only Warden Mages doing it since there aren't any at Ostagar. Also I recall a throwaway line from somewhere in the game that the Wardens are only allowed one mage at a time. Whether that's a local restriction on the Ferelden Grey Wardens since their reintroduction or a regular regional thing or simply a new Chantry policy is unknown. It's clear that 100 years ago there were multiple mages at Soldier's Peak. And given Avernus's hobbies it's also clear that maybe there really shouldn't be that many Warden-Mages running around. ;b

There's a quote from Gaider that I'm too lazy/rushed to find right now, but you need darkspawn blood and lyrium or archdemon blood. You don't need them both. The reason you were sent to find darkspawn blood at Ostagar is because the archdemon blood wasn't available.

Hmmm, that doesn't make sense because Riorden says you NEED the archdemon blood.  There's a lot of available darkspawn blood at that point.

Edit: *groan* another thing I won't think about too hard.

Modifié par ejoslin, 12 mars 2010 - 01:17 .

[Monica21]

ejoslin wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

Andorfiend wrote...

In the game Alister says the preparation is a complicated process and you need darkspawn blood, lyrium and magical preparation. We later find out you also need Archdemon blood. It was pretty strongly implied if not outright stated that the circle mages had spent all day prepping for the joining so whatever it is they do it seems to need several mages and involved heavy fade work. Which rules out only Warden Mages doing it since there aren't any at Ostagar. Also I recall a throwaway line from somewhere in the game that the Wardens are only allowed one mage at a time. Whether that's a local restriction on the Ferelden Grey Wardens since their reintroduction or a regular regional thing or simply a new Chantry policy is unknown. It's clear that 100 years ago there were multiple mages at Soldier's Peak. And given Avernus's hobbies it's also clear that maybe there really shouldn't be that many Warden-Mages running around. ;b

There's a quote from Gaider that I'm too lazy/rushed to find right now, but you need darkspawn blood and lyrium or archdemon blood. You don't need them both. The reason you were sent to find darkspawn blood at Ostagar is because the archdemon blood wasn't available.

Hmmm, that doesn't make sense because Riorden says you NEED the archdemon blood.  There's a lot of available darkspawn blood at that point.

Edit: *groan* another thing I won't think about too hard.

*shrug* Gaider said it so it's true.

[Herr Uhl]

Monica21 wrote...

There's a quote from Gaider that I'm too lazy/rushed to find right now, but you need darkspawn blood and lyrium or archdemon blood. You don't need them both. The reason you were sent to find darkspawn blood at Ostagar is because the archdemon blood wasn't available.

This? I think I dug it up for you last time too.

David Gaider wrote...

Baher of Glory wrote...
Question:
Is Joseph now effectively compareable to a Grey Warden, although he has no clue about the ritual and the order?

The flaw in your story is that simply drinking darkspawn blood does not make one a Grey Warden. Most likely Joseph would come down with the blight and become a ghoul in short order. The villagers would have found him delerious and sick with fever, and if he survived he would have disappeared one night and never been seen again.

Becoming a Grey Warden requires a dose of the darkspawn corruption in sufficient potency that it immediately affects someone, rather than slowly enough to sicken them. Archdemon blood can be used (though is understandably much rarer), but any darkspawn blood can be magically treated to make it work. Your rank-and-file darkspawn simply doesn't have enough of the corruption within him to do the trick... though who knows? If he drank enough, maybe it might work. I don't doubt a story of an "accidental" Grey Warden could be justified, although it would take some doing.