125 réponses à ce sujet

[Monica21]

Heh, thanks. ;-) Think I'll save it this time because this keeps coming up and being misunderstood.

[Mlai00]

Sabriana wrote...
The Maker has apparently turned his back on the people, as my PC points out to Leliana.

But the hope/prophecy is that once the Chant is spread thru-out Thedas, the Maker will return.  Just like after the Day of Judgement and all the unbelievers have been booted to Hell, Jesus will return and establish Heaven on Earth.
And since souls are immortal, the believers can wait.  But if your soul is tainted and damned, then you're SOL.
I guess I'm talking to a bunch of non-Christians here.  This is simple simple Christian reasoning I'm having to explain.

You, as a Grey Warden and a player, is a very atypical individual in Fereldan.  What you think is not representative of what 95% of the human population thinks.  So you having atheist dialogue choices doesn't mean Chantry isn't as widespread as Christianity.

The dwarfs and the DE also don't worship the maker.

I'd imagine very few dwarves actually become GW, since they have all the Darkspawn they can handle down in the Deep Roads, and they have their own city to protect.
The Dalish have very little contact with humans anyways.
The GWs are a primarily human organization (in Fereldan at least).  Yes they recruit dwarves and elves.  But human recruits are the most accessible in Fereldan, and humans have the most motivation to join the GWs.

The dalish do respect Andraste, but despise the chantry and their 'maker'.

They despise the Chantry but have no opinion of the Maker.  Elves are polytheistic, so they're not concerned with whether the Maker exists in reality.  He's simply the shemlens' god.

I thought only mages saw the structure looming in the fade.

Mages have vivid dreaming.  But everyone dreams, and can see the Black City in their sleep.

It's nothing but a structure, without any explanation attached to it other than chantry lore.

You just answered for me.  There are no competing explanations/theories.

Also, both my dalish, and my DC were called 'heathen' by the chantry priest in Ostagar. So while true atheism might not be a factor, there is also no monotheism in Thedas.

Uh, yes there is.
Dwarven (Orzhammar) and elven (Dalish) societies do not interact with Fereldan society; there is no cultural exchange.  The fringe elements that do not belong in them, the surfacers and the alienagers, have no established society of their own, and have to swallow the humans'.

[Sabriana]

Pardon me, but there is no monotheism in Thedas. I doesn't matter that the humans outnumber the elves/dwarfs, those two societies do not worship the Maker. We have so far only seen Ferelden in-depth, and know little about other parts of Thedas. D. Gaider said that the dalish have a far bigger contingent in Orlais for example.

The Qunari definitely don't worship the maker, and we know too little of the other societies. There are Andrastian countries and there are those that are not. I cannot, personally dismiss whole societies because their number does not match another society. Their worship is just as real to them as is the worship of the Maker/Andraste to the chantry led society.

There are those that worship no entity, and let us not forget the cults. The last leader of the Grey Wardens slew and died with the archdemon. His name was Garahel, and he was an elf. In the opening movie of the game there are many dwarfs to be seen. It's hard to tell with elves because of the helmet, though.

[Herr Uhl]

Sabriana wrote...

There are those that worship no entity, and let us not forget the cults. The last leader of the Grey Wardens slew and died with the archdemon. His name was Garahel, and he was an elf. In the opening movie of the game there are many dwarfs to be seen. It's hard to tell with elves because of the helmet, though.

There are many fewer dwarves these days than during the first blight (which I presume that intro is pointing to).

[ejoslin]

Monica21 wrote...

*shrug* Gaider said it so it's true.

I wasn't arguing with you.  I just said it makes no sense given what Riorden says.  And that I just won't think about it!  Hmmm, I groaned too

Modifié par ejoslin, 12 mars 2010 - 03:02 .

[Sabriana]

I don't really know which Blight they are battling in the intro, Herr Uhl. I only meant to point out that the GWs don't really care which race the newlings come from, as long as they fit the GW criteria. And that the dwarfs take part in battling Blights.

The interaction/having to swallow human society rules goes for the CE, but I have found little in-game information about the surface dwarfs. So it is all conjecture at this point.

[mousestalker]

On a side note, I think of all the idiots in Thedas, Riordan has to be the biggest one. He looks sexy, he sounds sexy, he even has sexy moves, but all his ideas or suggestions inevitably turn out wrong.

[Herr Uhl]

Sabriana wrote...

I don't really know which Blight they are battling in the intro, Herr Uhl. I only meant to point out that the GWs don't really care which race the newlings come from, as long as they fit the GW criteria. And that the dwarfs take part in battling Blights.

Ah, but there isn't many dwarves fighting it now, which I thought was her point. The GW may not care, but it changes the demography of the wardens.

[Herr Uhl]

mousestalker wrote...

On a side note, I think of all the idiots in Thedas, Riordan has to be the biggest one. He looks sexy, he sounds sexy, he even has sexy moves, but all his ideas or suggestions inevitably turn out wrong.

Loghain killed the archdemon, it worked for me at least.

[Sabriana]

Well, the dwarfs have a lot of people they just throw away into Dust Town. I agree, the ratio of dwarf/elf/human in the GWs is highly likely to be heavily on the human side, but that's only because of demographics not because the dwarfs don't volunteer for the GWs enough.

Unless I really misread her/his statement, which is always possible. As far as volunteering for highly dangerous work, the legion of the dead is one example of dwarfs giving their all to fight the darkspawn and protect their remaining society, and at one point Oghren states that there would be volunteers for the anvil if it meant protecting Orzammar.

[mousestalker]

Dwarves likely don't go for the Grey Wardens because they have their own alternatives. The Legion of the Dead are arguably more dedicated to killing Darkspawn than the Wardens. Likewise there seem to be any number of expeditions as well as flat out battles when there aren't Blights for ordinary warriors.

[Herr Uhl]

I think it is simply because of the pool getting smaller in Orzammar (wonder if there are any from Kal'Sharok there). The difference between becoming a legionnaire and a GW is that in one, you become equal to a noble in status, and in the other you're considered dead already. If they get the choice, dwarves go for becoming GW, unless the fright of "falling into the sky" is more widespread than I thought.



Ferelden should logically be the place with the most dwarven GW, unless they get conscripted to the Orlesian side.

[Andorfiend]

Mlai00 wrote...

And since souls are immortal, the believers can wait.  But if your soul is tainted and damned, then you're SOL.
I guess I'm talking to a bunch of non-Christians here.  This is simple simple Christian reasoning I'm having to explain.

Well, I actually have a problem with how closely the Chantry mirrors Christianity given the vast theological and cosmological differences between the two belief systems. Also the taint is not a result of the first sin, it's from the second, and neither one is a close parallel to Christian Original Sin.

For that matter the Chantry doesn't believe in Heaven and Hell nor does it have a Satan analogue. All told I don't see much reason to think the taint is theologically damning. And even if it was the Chantry is more than corrupt enough to tell people the Wardens get special compensation from the maker.

As far as the joining itself goes, I don't think it technically qualifies as blood magic. Granted we're getting a little technical here for the average Fereldan, but Blood Magic is defined as magic powered by blood. This blood can be drawn from the mage himself or from a victem. In the case of the joining however the blood is not utilized as a power source but simply serves as the focus of the enchantment. You can do blood magic that utilizes the tainted blood as Avernus shows, but I don't think the joining qualifies. Certainly Alister doesn't seem to think he's been corrupted by wicked malificarum and he's qualified to know.

[IanPolaris]

mousestalker wrote...

Dwarves likely don't go for the Grey Wardens because they have their own alternatives. The Legion of the Dead are arguably more dedicated to killing Darkspawn than the Wardens. Likewise there seem to be any number of expeditions as well as flat out battles when there aren't Blights for ordinary warriors.

Actually there is an upside for Dwarves joining the GWs over the Legion.  GWs in Dwarven society are given honorary noble-caste status (including the right to fight in provings).  Your sister in the DC background explains this.  AFAIK there is no such status given to Legion of the Dead (although if you complete the Dead-Caste Quest that may change).  Also Seweryn tries to get you to recruit him into the GWs if you talk to him before the provings and many Dwarves do assume that when you visit Orzammar, it's to find the very best Dwarven Warrior to recruit and apparently it's regarded as an honor. 

I think that the big reason Dwarven GWs are rare is because the GWs being a primarily human organization don't have much daily contact with the Dwarves is all.

-Polaris

[Sabriana]

Exactly, Mousestalker. Isn't that what the leader of the Legion contingent at the Deep Trenches says (I forget his name) "Your nightmare is my every-day", and later on he tells the PC that waiting for the darkspawn to return from the surface is just as important as fighting them on the surface. However, he can be persuaded to fight above by the PC.

Although that doesn't include the surface dwarfs. I wonder how many actually live topside.

[RavenousBear]

Sabriana wrote...

Exactly, Mousestalker. Isn't that what the leader of the Legion contingent at the Deep Trenches says (I forget his name) "Your nightmare is my every-day", and later on he tells the PC that waiting for the darkspawn to return from the surface is just as important as fighting them on the surface. However, he can be persuaded to fight above by the PC.
Although that doesn't include the surface dwarfs. I wonder how many actually live topside.

I played the DN origin to see what it was like and one dialogue option I believe Gorim says there are 500 surface dwarfs. Not sure if I buy that number though.

[Sabriana]

I didn't know that they receive honor status if joining with the GW. I really have to start playing my DC, all the information I have is from the respectful way my human wardens were treated, and from the wiki.

As far as no societal interaction goes, why was Loghain's messenger at Orzammar then? And didn't Nalthur of the Legion help Maric in a big way?

There is surface knowledge about dwarven religion, although I don't know how deep that goes. And the humans definitely know about the dalish gods. The chantry even marched against them because they didn't recognize the maker as their deity.

[Sarah1281]

And "God" would be an even more established fact in Fereldan, compared to medieval Earth, because everyone can see the Black City. It's right there.



The fact that people don't follow the 10 Commandments even though they know God exists, is a matter of human rationalization. But there is no rationalizing away physically drinking the blood of the damned, knowing that it will eventually turn you into one. This "original sin" is the founding tenet of the Chantry, in fact. There is nothing in the world more "damned" than those with the Taint. You can't get more indoctrinated than this.

The Black City doesn't physically exist; it's in the Fade. No one really knows where it came from or where darkspawn came from, the Chantry version is just their explanation of events. We have no more or less reason to believe it to be true then any other real-world cultures explanations of things they don't understand. In fact, the game makes sure to give you alternative explanations to 'the Chantry was right' every time you deal with it. Andraste could have been a mage, for instance, and the ashes gained power due to their location.

why did Jory freak out?

He was very reluctant the whole time, certainly, but he didn't outright panic until Daveth died in front of him. That changed things from 'I'm eventually going to die and don't want to but I'll try anyway' to 'they're trying to make me drink poison!' Duncan really should have had enough experience with Joinings to have Jory go first.

[Mlai00]

>> Pardon me, but there is no monotheism in Thedas.



The abrahmic religions on earth are considered monotheisms, even though not 100% of all people believe in them.

Perhaps you have an erroneous definition of monotheism.



>> If they get the choice, dwarves go for becoming GW, unless the fright of "falling into the sky" is more widespread than I thought.



GWs is a surface human organization, for the most part. Which is why underground dwarves will always be a minority of the organization. You don't fill out an organization that operates in the human world, with a ton of dwarves who lived their lives underground.



>>Also the taint is not a result of the first sin, it's from the second, and neither one is a close parallel to Christian Original Sin.



I meant the original human sin in the eyes of the Maker, that of trying to usurp "Heaven". If I must put every single word in quotations so you stop being so literal with them... nah too much trouble.



The Satan analogue would be the ancient Tevinter magisters. They are damned by the maker thru the Taint. It marks them as damned. As a believer, do you want to drink that?



And to the layman, it IS blood magic. You're drinking darkspawn blood. You going to start explaining theories of magic to pitchfork-toting peasants about how it's not really blood magic?



>> As far as no societal interaction goes, why was Loghain's messenger at Orzammar then? And didn't Nalthur of the Legion help Maric in a big way?



Which is why I said "no societal interaction," not "no individual interaction."



I'm talking about extensive commerce, human merchants freely about in Orzhammar, Orzhammar dwarves freely coming and going on Fereldan topside. Free travel to and fro for average people. People traveling through Dalish lands and stopping at Dalish inns.



>>The Black City doesn't physically exist; it's in the Fade. No one really knows where it came from or where darkspawn came from, the Chantry version is just their explanation of events.



The Black City can be seen in the dreams of *every single person*, mage or non-mage. If you can remember your dream, you can remember you saw the Black City all the time. Everyone you know also saw the Black City, all the time. All the descriptions corroborate.



The Chantry explanation is the only one ever given. There are no competing explanations. Atheists don't have anything to counter with. The Chantry's explanation is interwoven into the entire world's history and culture. Who would the layman believe?



Anyways, everything you said can be applied to an Earth abrahmic religion, yet billions of people believe. And the Chant actually has much more (circumstantial) proof than the abrahmic religions.

[Moogliepie]

Gill Kaiser wrote...


You really think it's surprising they keep it a secret? Nobody but the suicidal would ever join them otherwise.

This. 

If the price of becoming a Greywarden were known, they would be like the Legion of the Dead. Their recruits would be  the suicidal, as you said, outcastes, and others with nothing left to lose and nothing to look forward to. The Wardens want the best of the best, and since the taint kills them or makes them go made in 30 years, they want them while they are young and in their prime. 

[KnightofPhoenix]

Mlai00 wrote...

>> Pardon me, but there is no monotheism in Thedas.

The abrahmic religions on earth are considered monotheisms, even though not 100% of all people believe in them.
Perhaps you have an erroneous definition of monotheism.

2 of the Abrahamic religions would look at the Andrastian religion as being awfully close to idolatry and not purely monotheist.

But yea, Andrastianism seems to be the only religion in DA that has some semblance to monotheism.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 12 mars 2010 - 06:23 .

[errant_knight]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Mlai00 wrote...

>> Pardon me, but there is no monotheism in Thedas.

The abrahmic religions on earth are considered monotheisms, even though not 100% of all people believe in them.
Perhaps you have an erroneous definition of monotheism.

2 of the Abrahamic religions would look at the Andrastian religion as being awfully close to idolatry and not purely monotheist.

But yea, Andrastianism seems to be the only religion in DA that has some semblance to monotheism.

Perhaps the poster meant that while followers of the Chantry believe in one god ('There is but one god, and he is the maker'), they also have no trouble believing that the archdemons exist in the form of tainted Tevinter gods.

[IanPolaris]

errant_knight wrote...

Perhaps the poster meant that while followers of the Chantry believe in one god ('There is but one god, and he is the maker'), they also have no trouble believing that the archdemons exist in the form of tainted Tevinter gods.

That's not a conflict.  As I understand it, the Chantry teaches that the "Old Gods" are in fact false gods, i.e. incredibly intelligent High Dragon masquerading as gods and the Maker punished them for it.  Alistair gives you the whole story under "Chantry Version" if you talk to him in Ostagar before the battle but after he has joined your group.

-Polaris

[Andorfiend]

Mlai00 wrote...

>>Also the taint is not a result of the first sin, it's from the second, and neither one is a close parallel to Christian Original Sin.

I meant the original human sin in the eyes of the Maker, that of trying to usurp "Heaven". If I must put every single word in quotations so you stop being so literal with them... nah too much trouble.

No really, that's not the First Sin according to Chantry lore. The First Sin was when the humans turned from worshipping the Maker to the false gods of Tevinter. That was the first time the Maker abandoned his people.

Mlai00 wrote...
The Satan analogue would be the ancient Tevinter magisters. They are damned by the maker thru the Taint. It marks them as damned. As a believer, do you want to drink that?

But the Tevineter mages were not damned by the Maker, according to the Chantry. The Maker wasn't even in the Golden City, having abandoned it after the First Sin. The mages were twisted by their own corruption turning back on them in the heart of the fade. It was their actions that twisted the Golden City into the Black City, not the Makers. That was the Second Sin.

Then Andraste's singing seduced the Maker and she talked him into giving humans another chance. That lasted until the Tevinter mages killed Andraste and burned her, whence the Maker turned away again and won't come back until the Chant of Light is sung in all the corners of the world, or so it is rumoured.

Hmmm...l poking through the Wiki there seems to be conflicting information about whether the Second Sin was the mages entering the Golden City or the killing of Andraste. If you go with the killing of Andraste then the corruption of the Golden city and the creation of the blight doesn't even count as one of the two Great Sins.

As I said, the Christian parallel is a lot weaker than the dialogue and actions of the Chantry and priests in the game would lead you to believe. All that stuff about the Maker's plan for example is utter garbage. The Maker doesn't have a plan, that's why he made humanity in the first place, to see what they would come up with on their own.

Modifié par Andorfiend, 12 mars 2010 - 09:22 .

[Mlai00]

Right, 1 of the 2 "Great Sins". My point stands.

In the game's own intro, the narration tells us that the mages were "cast out." To be cast out means that somebody must cast you out.

And it's a given that the Maker knows about and disapproves of the 2nd Sin. Otherwise it wouldn't be a Sin.

There are a few Christian parallels to the Chant. One god, a messiah/prophet, the journey to reconnect with your god, sins for which humanity must redeem itself from, and entities anathema to your religion. All the basics.

Where they diverge would be the philosophical fine points. As an intelligent contemporary Earth person, the player can definitely see a trend in the Chantry organization, that of moving towards their own devised theocratic philosophies to teach the people, despite it veering drastically away from the original philosophical intent of the religious lore when founded. Lay-people want to hear that their god has a plan for them, that there is a safety net somewhere. They don't want to hear that their god wants them to stand up and master their own destinies.