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#76
Xaijin

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Masticetobbacco wrote...

lol antipersonel weapons... You obviously did not watch the gundam series' at all
mobile suits are 20-30 ft tall humanoid machines with weapons that scale with their size and have the firepower of entire fleets.

Mobile suits never defy the laws of physics at all. They have a system called active mass balance control which works by leveraging the third law of motion with regard to inertia to effect changes in direction. Mobile suits are controlled by the precise movement of their limbs that allows thrustless manouvering in 0 gravity.

Mobile suits performing AMBAC motions would move similarly to astronauts performing extra vehicular activity: both typically having roughly similar body structure, their use of that mass to control their rotation would presumably be similar, even if calculated by different means.

TLDR: Mobile suits do not defy the laws of physics. They are controlled by the limbs like an astronaut. The only reason we do not have them IRL is because they are expensive and we dont exactly have the technology to create a 50 ft tall machine where every single bolt and screw is in place to allow limitless movement.


what the F@<|< ever, dude. I've watched every single one of them, and you can't even read, or apparently play Mass Effect, because the reaper larva is killed by antipersonnel weapons and abilities.

The reason there's not Gundams is there's NOTHING remotely practicla about them, PERIOD. Too large, too unrealistic, and too copywritten.

Fan fiction central is that way -->.

#77
Landline

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Masticetobbacco wrote...

Landline wrote...

The larger an object is the slower it is.


where did you get this retarded theory from?



From this page: http://stardestroyer...ience/Size.html

WARNING: Science ahead.


EDIT: Also keep in mind that while there is no resistance in space, the laws of mass still apply.

In the ME universe it could in theory be countered with powerful mass effect drive cores, but if they could build ones that powerful they would have mounted them on their capships to make them more adgile, which they can't.

Modifié par Landline, 21 mars 2010 - 07:51 .


#78
Akeashar

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SnakeStrike8 wrote...

If we do need to have giant fighting machines in Mass Effect, then I vote for the battletech collection. It fits in more with the 'realistic' sci-fi feel of ME. Huge ****** man-bots are just out of place.


Is this where I point out that a number of the first Battletech mechs were ripped out of Macross?  And the reason that a number of the mechs in them haven't been available for years was change in policy in japan?

As far as I'm aware, there really isn't that much of a size difference between a Gundam and a Phoenix Hawk.

#79
Mallissin

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I don't care what any of you say. If Joker pops out of nowhere in a mechanized battle suit, I'm gonna scream.... "$%^$^%$ YEEEEAH!"... at the top of my lungs.

#80
Steel Dancer

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Look, if we're gonna be all sciencey about this at least do it properly. Well, kinda.

'course Mass Effect fields could well curb stomp that into mush, but...

Modifié par Steel Dancer, 21 mars 2010 - 08:50 .


#81
Mondo_

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I'd rather have WelTall-2 in cargo hold.

#82
Sesshomaru47

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I want the Shinkiro, wouldn't need a stupid hover tank then. Or annoying team mates.

#83
adam_grif

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Mechaaaa suuuuckkkk.

#84
Mallissin

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adam_grif wrote...

Mechaaaa suuuuckkkk.


*Mech walks towards Adam...slowly* I WILL DESTROY YOU!

#85
Cody

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Why are you guys bringing actual laws of physics when talking about either the gundam series or mass effect...like seriously...if you think about it Mass Effect really defies a lot of laws of realism just as much as the gundam series. Like carrying a mini nuke for one...plus...everything involving dark energy with biotics and Mass effect drives (or w/e) just screams black hole some where or another. Like seriously....to everyone thinking they can justify the "difference in realism" from the gundam series and the mass effect universe....answer me this...in terms of laws of nature or physics...is Mass Effect REALLY all that different? I'll answer it for you. No it's not >_>.

#86
Cross1280

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Akeashar wrote...

SnakeStrike8 wrote...

If we do need to have giant fighting machines in Mass Effect, then I vote for the battletech collection. It fits in more with the 'realistic' sci-fi feel of ME. Huge ****** man-bots are just out of place.


Is this where I point out that a number of the first Battletech mechs were ripped out of Macross?  And the reason that a number of the mechs in them haven't been available for years was change in policy in japan?

As far as I'm aware, there really isn't that much of a size difference between a Gundam and a Phoenix Hawk.


You beat me to it.Posted Image

#87
Masticetobbacco

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Computron2000 wrote...

So what operates the limbs? You know that astronauts use their own bodies so thats contraction and extension muscles. So for mechs what does that?


Then reference a rollercoaster ride. The force is coming from your back when you go downwards. Hold out your arms so its a T shape (keeping in mind safety). Do you find you need effort to bring your arms forward? Do you feel a stretch on your upper arms? What is keeping your arms from flying off?

Magnify this force by several times. What is keeping the mech's arms from flying off? Because this is not a roller coaster where you're seated, ask yourself the same question on the legs.

As for the 2nd law, more force = ?. What is "propulsive efficiency"?


The limbs are controlled by the pilot operating a computer to instruct the mobile suit what to do. obviously... that question was like asking how do I turn left when flying an airplane? you use the godamn controls

What's keeping my arms from flying off is the joints connecting the bones. Similar to how mobile suits have a metal exoskeleton and then armour is added onto it. Of course I wouldn't just screw some nails in together on a plate of metal, I would attach the limbs with powerful, but flexible joints. Keep in mind space is in a 0 gravity setting, there is no air drag. Moving into extremely fast speeds does not mean that a mobile suit's arms and legs will be ripped apart due to force.

The second law says nothing about "lulz heavier machine = it moves slower". the heavier an object is, the more force it will take to push it. overall propulsive efficiency η is the efficiency, in percent, with which the energy contained in a vehicle's propellant is converted into useful energy. There is no gravitational pull in space. A mobile suit's engines will be attached onto the back, and it has to push a relatively light machine (light for the size of the engine) in a 0 gravity environment.

#88
Masticetobbacco

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Landline wrote...

Masticetobbacco wrote...

Landline wrote...

The larger an object is the slower it is.


where did you get this retarded theory from?



From this page: http://stardestroyer...ience/Size.html

WARNING: Science ahead.


EDIT: Also keep in mind that while there is no resistance in space, the laws of mass still apply.

In the ME universe it could in theory be countered with powerful mass effect drive cores, but if they could build ones that powerful they would have mounted them on their capships to make them more adgile, which they can't.


right cool,

so your saying that a paper airplane will move faster than a Boeing 747 because it's lighter?

yes the laws of mass apply, but logically a larger machine would cause engineers to install a larger engine. This would be the case for mobile suits. Mobile suits have no need to travel at lightspeed, so there wouldn't be bigass engines that are twice their size (Actually there were 2 machines that could have an optional booster pack strapped on their back for extreme speeds). Since we are in space, the engine would not have to fight any air drag, and would spend 100% of its fuel output in actually moving the machine.

#89
adam_grif

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Mallissin wrote...

adam_grif wrote...

Mechaaaa suuuuckkkk.


*Mech walks towards Adam...slowly* I WILL DESTROY YOU!


*Tank comes from behind*

Huzah!

#90
Cody

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adam_grif wrote...

Mallissin wrote...

adam_grif wrote...

Mechaaaa suuuuckkkk.


*Mech walks towards Adam...slowly* I WILL DESTROY YOU!


*Tank comes from behind*

Huzah!


and gets owned instantly...










Also the thing all the mass effect fanboys are missing here is that in the gundam universe the gundams are fitted with gundanium. Which is insanely light as well as durable. Basically all the gundams in thge gundam universe (with the exception of gundam seed, since they use phase shift armor and are a lot heavier) weigh lighter than 8 tons or exactly 8 tons. Which comparing to the normandy.....is pretty damn light. Plus a few gundams (such as the pheonix gundam and zero gundam) have weapons that can take out a colony in a single attack. Then you have the super mechs such as Turn A (strongest moile suit in the entire gundam franchise....has the ability to turn any kind of technology in an entire solar system and turn them into sand. (Bye bye reapers). Plus while doing this attack (moonlight butterfly) the gundam is basically shielded and can literaly teleport (again...super mech).

But super mechs defy everything normal. Nonetheless the law of things moving slow because being big is still in effect yes....but if the thing thats really big also really light and has a repulsion system on it that can kill a person that flies it (such as the soldier who tried to use the tallgese before zechs). I am pretty sure it can defy the law.

Like seriously...unless you know about gundams or w/e.....don't talk out of your behind.....and don't try to say mass effect is anymore realistic than the gundam universe >_>.

For more info on certain mechs....go here: http://mahq.net/mech...ndam/index.htm. It can help you do the understand the mobile suits better. An example would be this http://mahq.net/mecha/gundam/index.htm

Also yes I know material such as gundanium never will exist. But nontheless. The gundam franchise is no more "realistic" than the Mass Effect franchise.

#91
Computron2000

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Masticetobbacco wrote...

Computron2000 wrote...

So what operates the limbs? You know that astronauts use their own bodies so thats contraction and extension muscles. So for mechs what does that?


Then reference a rollercoaster ride. The force is coming from your back when you go downwards. Hold out your arms so its a T shape (keeping in mind safety). Do you find you need effort to bring your arms forward? Do you feel a stretch on your upper arms? What is keeping your arms from flying off?

Magnify this force by several times. What is keeping the mech's arms from flying off? Because this is not a roller coaster where you're seated, ask yourself the same question on the legs.

As for the 2nd law, more force = ?. What is "propulsive efficiency"?


The limbs are controlled by the pilot operating a computer to instruct the mobile suit what to do. obviously... that question was like asking how do I turn left when flying an airplane? you use the godamn controls

What's keeping my arms from flying off is the joints connecting the bones. Similar to how mobile suits have a metal exoskeleton and then armour is added onto it. Of course I wouldn't just screw some nails in together on a plate of metal, I would attach the limbs with powerful, but flexible joints. Keep in mind space is in a 0 gravity setting, there is no air drag. Moving into extremely fast speeds does not mean that a mobile suit's arms and legs will be ripped apart due to force.

The second law says nothing about "lulz heavier machine = it moves slower". the heavier an object is, the more force it will take to push it. overall propulsive efficiency η is the efficiency, in percent, with which the energy contained in a vehicle's propellant is converted into useful energy. There is no gravitational pull in space. A mobile suit's engines will be attached onto the back, and it has to push a relatively light machine (light for the size of the engine) in a 0 gravity environment.


Eh you don't get it do you. The controls control something. What is that thing? Lets make this easier. What is the thing in a gundam that does the same thing as your muscles?

Joints connecting the bones? You really don't think through this do you? The joints are your weaknesses. Ever notice how some wrestling/martial arts moves are aimed at your joints? Same thing applies to mechs

As as for your "powerful, but flexible joints" please name the technology that will do this? And please use REAL LIFE tech.

As for your arms flying off due to gravity,*facepalm*. Please google "torque" then get back to me on it.

Eh no gravity does not mean F=ma changes 1 bit. Your mass does not change at all. Gravity comes into play only when flying off form land or near bodies that are massive enough to affect you (in this case is not considered for simplification). Acceleration requires deceleration (yes Newton again) so how are you going to handle immediate acceleration with immediate deceleration to pull off those stunts found in gundam? How are your mech's joints going to handle it?

And please quoting wiki wholesale just shows you don't even know what "propulsive efficiency" means. Seriously you're coming off as someone who does not even bother to think and get angry when people call you on it.

#92
gotthammer

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Hmm. Not sure about Gundam, but in Battletech, don't the mechs have 'muscles'? (or was that clan tech only? I forget)

In VOTOMS, I think the mecha did have something like 'muscles' (that required a liquid, that also fueled the mecha itself...oh, and it's combustible! Did I mention that they died in droves? :D ).



Joints usually were a weak point (even in games. in Battletech, you could hamper a mech's ability to use weapons on an arm that gets a critical hit to an actuator. In the Mechwarrior video games, while you can't target joints per se, the limbs, particularly the arms, are one of the weakest parts, after the head, armor-wise...so yep. vulnerable and all that).

Heh, you should have seen one of the joint locks I was shown in Tai Chi, where, if done properly, you can attack someone's heart by manipulating the arm. Funny, that. :D



"Powerful but flexible joints" - huh. whatever those joints are used for, it'd probably be scary. :D

#93
Vengal345

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Gundams(Mechs in general) were primarily designed to fight in areas with gravity or on land. That's what the point of legs are to do things wheels can not. Yet more often then not the mechs mostly flew around avoiding the legs all together, sure they have jets and they kick sometimes but the total form is useless in a larger sense of when this would even be used in the ME universe.



More then likely something like this would be used for direct confrontation of the reapers which can only happen either on a reaper or in space. So the huge humanoid shaped would be pointless, arms might be useful but even arms have directional limitations in firing arcs.



Using soverign as an example his little tenticals couldn't aim directly behind him or above him to fire their range looked like maybe 180 degree arcs. If you wanted to grab something crazy out of scifi for pure space combat something shaped like a sphere might work if you can keep all the weapons on rails to move around so that the orientation of the ship wouldn't matter at all, and also some sort of retractable arms if you really wanted those.

#94
alickar

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really guys ;/

#95
GnusmasTHX

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I knew coming to this thread I'd have a good laugh...

#96
gotthammer

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Hehehe. Spheres. Wouldn't look so 'cool' (then again, 'cool' is such a subjective term... :D ), tho'.



Yup. Agree on the big mecha point.

While I liked Battletech's mechs, I still prefer the smaller ones from VOTOMS/Heavy Gear (roughly half the height, I think, of even the shorter Battlemechs).

Better yet, powered armor. (tho' I think I'd kinda prefer Heavy Gear-like mecha operating together w/ something like Tanks and Power Armored troops :D )



re: arms and limitations: yup, but that's easily remedied w/ 'torso twist'! :D

(*sigh* I miss playing tabletop battletech...)

#97
VutaatVerd

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This question needs more SDF1

Posted Image

#98
Masticetobbacco

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Computron2000 wrote...

Masticetobbacco wrote...

Computron2000 wrote...

So what operates the limbs? You know that astronauts use their own bodies so thats contraction and extension muscles. So for mechs what does that?


Then reference a rollercoaster ride. The force is coming from your back when you go downwards. Hold out your arms so its a T shape (keeping in mind safety). Do you find you need effort to bring your arms forward? Do you feel a stretch on your upper arms? What is keeping your arms from flying off?

Magnify this force by several times. What is keeping the mech's arms from flying off? Because this is not a roller coaster where you're seated, ask yourself the same question on the legs.

As for the 2nd law, more force = ?. What is "propulsive efficiency"?


The limbs are controlled by the pilot operating a computer to instruct the mobile suit what to do. obviously... that question was like asking how do I turn left when flying an airplane? you use the godamn controls

What's keeping my arms from flying off is the joints connecting the bones. Similar to how mobile suits have a metal exoskeleton and then armour is added onto it. Of course I wouldn't just screw some nails in together on a plate of metal, I would attach the limbs with powerful, but flexible joints. Keep in mind space is in a 0 gravity setting, there is no air drag. Moving into extremely fast speeds does not mean that a mobile suit's arms and legs will be ripped apart due to force.

The second law says nothing about "lulz heavier machine = it moves slower". the heavier an object is, the more force it will take to push it. overall propulsive efficiency η is the efficiency, in percent, with which the energy contained in a vehicle's propellant is converted into useful energy. There is no gravitational pull in space. A mobile suit's engines will be attached onto the back, and it has to push a relatively light machine (light for the size of the engine) in a 0 gravity environment.


Eh you don't get it do you. The controls control something. What is that thing? Lets make this easier. What is the thing in a gundam that does the same thing as your muscles?

Joints connecting the bones? You really don't think through this do you? The joints are your weaknesses. Ever notice how some wrestling/martial arts moves are aimed at your joints? Same thing applies to mechs

As as for your "powerful, but flexible joints" please name the technology that will do this? And please use REAL LIFE tech.

As for your arms flying off due to gravity,*facepalm*. Please google "torque" then get back to me on it.

Eh no gravity does not mean F=ma changes 1 bit. Your mass does not change at all. Gravity comes into play only when flying off form land or near bodies that are massive enough to affect you (in this case is not considered for simplification). Acceleration requires deceleration (yes Newton again) so how are you going to handle immediate acceleration with immediate deceleration to pull off those stunts found in gundam? How are your mech's joints going to handle it?

And please quoting wiki wholesale just shows you don't even know what "propulsive efficiency" means. Seriously you're coming off as someone who does not even bother to think and get angry when people call you on it.


I'm not an engineer but I think there is potential for this kind of technology, that would take many years and millions of dollars in investment, but that's not the point. We are discussing if this technology is available in the mass effect universe if you read the OP, and I am trying to justify how gundams would not be totally impractical.

A gundam is just as complicated as a human body. It is built on a mechanical exoskeleton (Carbon nanofibers maybe?). There will be thousands if not hundreds of thousands of seperate joints and latices to connect the entire body together. If humans can walk upright, lets try and use our imaginations (with the mass effect universe technology) and presume that a larger machine could follow a similar design. The "muscles" of the gundam are analogous to human muscles and are made of titanium or any other strong but temperature resistant metals.

as for torque, the AMBAC takes care of that, when a gundam raises left arm to his chest then swing it out to the side, the resulting inertia of the arm movement would result in the rest of his body turning the other direction in order to conserve angular momentum. Then when the motion of the arm stopped, the rotation of the body would also stop. The AMBAC system coordinates movements and micro-movements precisely, allowing a continuous balance and stability without expending reaction mass

copypasta wikipedia saves me time. why should I argue with angry white boy? Posted Image Also I think I've already justified gundams and propulsive effeciency in my previous posts (I clearly do not know what Im talking about right?)

Really though, Japan made a simple mobile suit that can move its arms and walk slowly. In real life, this technology would be pretty damn expensive, but give them a few more years and some money and they could pull it off.

#99
Cody

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Unless Gundanium or phase shift armor or E-Carbon armor is involved.....the only thing the gundams or mobile suits would be good for is space combat to fire things such as the satellite beam canon or twin buster rifle. Seeing as they can take out a colony in a single attack. Other than that...the only mechs that I can see in the future...maybe...are the ones from Code Geass.

#100
mortons4ck

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Exo hardsuits might be good for industrial work, but not economical or viable for combat. Like:
Posted Image


If you want a heavy weapons mobile platform, just hire an elcor!

Posted Image

Modifié par mortons4ck, 22 mars 2010 - 08:42 .