81 réponses à ce sujet

[Emerald Melios]

I like Ostagar; the war scene is well done and the Korcari Wilds lets you get into your class.

[Yriss]

I think Ostagar is only bad when you're trying to replay the game a few times. I've gone through it three times so far, and now I'm giving Origins a break because I don't feel like playing that area again with my remaining characters. Otherwise, it's fine the first time around.

[NightmarezAbound]

scyphozoa wrote...

Kekse2k wrote...

To be honest, the worst part of every BioWare game is the ending. Not that the ending in particular is bad, but the fact that the game actually ended.

i always resent the last 2 hours of every bioware rpg because every city is empty, all npcs are gone or resolved and all that is left is the inevitable game ending fight. there must be moaaar

 thankfully in less than a week there will be more.

[Sloth Of Doom]

I agree with the OP here, to some extent. The problem isn't that the after-intro forced area is ever done poorly. Quite the contrary it is usually has more detail than later areas. The problem is that bioware games beg ofr second, third, fourth and fifth playtthroughs and every single time you have to truck through an area which is basically a tutorial and contains tons of exposition. It loses it's flair on multiple runthroughs and there is simply no way to skip it.



I would love it if the next time I go to Ostagar Duncan says "Oh, yeah we already collected this blood, normally we would make you do it but you seem capable and there is a giant army like...right there. Walk over here and drink it because the battle is happening in like 2 minutes. On the way pick that flower growing by the palisade and feed it to that sick dog, would you?"

[ransompendragon]

scyphozoa wrote...

yeah personally i like ostagar and the wilds more than lothering. lothering to me is excruciating, you can rush through it but the completionist in me hates skipping quests.

I agree here. Plus, even on the first play through I felt like I suddenly had all these companions thrown at me--you are stuck with Alistair then get Morrigan, then get Sten then get Leliana...somehow that should have been spread out a bit more to me. Especially since after that is kind of random depending on where you go to pick up more companions.

[fangedwolf]

Sloth Of Doom wrote...
I would love it if the next time I go to Ostagar Duncan says "Oh, yeah we already collected this blood, normally we would make you do it but you seem capable and there is a giant army like...right there. Walk over here and drink it because the battle is happening in like 2 minutes. On the way pick that flower growing by the palisade and feed it to that sick dog, would you?"

That would be a good option!  Having completed the game twice, and played about half way through with around 8 other characters of different origins/race/class I have to say that it isn't just the very beginning I am getting tired of lol.  I would love the option to be able to go to the landsmeet quite early on in the game because being forced to do each of the army quests no matter if you need them can be a little tedious.   Of course that would make the battles that much more difficult, but it would be cool to have the option to going against the advice of others lol

[Masticetobbacco]

Default137 wrote...

Is the beginning.

I love Bioware games, I always have, I own every single one, and will continue preordering so I can get them on day one, I wouldn't call myself a fanboy, as I realize when games have problems, and do not view Bioware as a flawless company, however I am a fan, and do enjoy their games, DLC, and other projects. However, there seems to be a design idea that Bioware loves to bring in to every single one of their games that just drives me mad, and upon asking around, found it drives many other people mad as well.

And thats the forced after intro area.

The what you may ask?

Candlekeep in BG1, Irenicus Dungeon from BG2, Citadel in ME1, and Ostagar from DA:O are all prime examples of this, the area where you are FORCED to go right after the intro plays, and you start your quest, which never changes, offers you very little in the way of character development, and is usually way to long for its own good. More often then not, these areas can take a person anywhere from 45 minutes to 2 hours, during which time you have to go through the exact same cutscenes, conversations, and god knows what else that you just had to go through on your other 2-3 characters.

Why is this considered a good idea? I could see if there was some character development, or some actual party banter during these sections, but there isn't, its you and two redshirts who will never comment on anything, besides the one encounter that actually got written to have them in, other then that, every conversation is exactly the same as it would be on your Elf, or Dwarf, besides the fact they will address you with a "ho Dwarf!" rather then a "ho Elf!"

The worst part is, for many of these zones, there seems to be a ton of stuff you can only do on that first visit, and many journal entries/codex entries/quests you can only do then, which means you can't just ****** off and actually start playing the game, you have to bunker down for a 2 hour conversationthon that is no different then the last time you did it, and if you dare get bored and leave, you miss out on a ton of interesting info, a ton of possible starter stuff, and feel very out of character if you try to play your character as well, a character.

I dunno, I'm probably rambling a bit here now, but I just wanted to write this out. I've always been annoyed with this, and Bioware games have always been built around freechoice, options, and all sorts of other things, but they always lock all that fun stuff behind this giant 2 hour forced section, thats generally not written to recognize character differences because you'll only be there for 2 hours, rather then the other zones which make up the world.

If you want full character development, I herd theres this MMORPGFPS called "Life"
No lag, one megaserver, level cap 100+, open ended gameplay, billions of other players online.

[JointVW]

TBH the scene when you just start with the battle there is why i was attracted to the game even way before i really knew what the game was. That battle scene was the first thing i have seen from the game and got me hooked. So i don't mind seeing it a few times. I am atm busy with my 4th play through. (ME 2 made me do long about the 3th) So i don't really mind ostagar bc for the story it is the main crossroad and very important.

[Maria Caliban]

Faust1979 wrote...

 The OP says he isn't the only person that gets upset about this but I have never seen another poster complain about it.

Posts like his are one of the reasons they created the multiple origin stories to begin with.

[Blue_dodo]

I won't say I entirly agree that this is the "wost part" but I do find it redundant to a point were making going throught the same area again is just off putting (mind you this is like after I have played the game many many times)



candlekeep,taris, citadel and ostager are all the the first levals and are mandatory the only game that did not follow that routine was ME2 which was really was nice.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Kekse2k wrote...

If the" forced introduction" wasn't there, then most of us would probably be lost in the beginning.

Being lost is fun.

Baldur's Gate just drops you in the world after the Candlekeeptutorial and you're free to go wherever you wish.  At that point, you have no idea where things are, not idea what the central plot is, and only a single piece of suspect advice to guide you.

That was terrific.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 11 mars 2010 - 08:03 .

[Yorick of the Damned]

In Kotor all you have to do is complete the simple tutorial. Then you get right into Taris. Taris isn't like Ostagar at all which is just an area where you can talk to people. It's an entire city planet that has probably more subquests/shops/things to do then the regular planets you go to during the main quest.

Bioware simply tries to edge you toward the main quest. It doesn't just shove it into your face

Modifié par Yorick of the Damned, 11 mars 2010 - 08:49 .

[Balerion84]

Well, for all the greatness that BG2 was, I really, really disliked the starting dungeon for the reasons OP mentioned  

[Ryngard]

Well I tend to disagree on all points, but won't really get into it.



HOWEVER...



It is a VIDEO GAME. They have to program EVERYTHING. They can only do so much man, WTF do you want from them?



How much do you get with Modern Warfare, or Dante's Inferno, etc? You don't get ANY choice.

[Elanareon]

What are you talking about? That's a great way to start a story! lol

[Dave of Canada]

DalishRanger wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

The Peragus Mining Facility was dreadful.

I either love it or hate it, depending on my mood. But that's Obsidian, not Bioware. Same basic set up though, I guess.

I understand, but it was mentioned above as an example and... I have nothing but hate for that place, I'd most likely be able to play KOTOR2 more if it wasn't for it.

[Dave of Canada]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Kekse2k wrote...

If the" forced introduction" wasn't there, then most of us would probably be lost in the beginning.

Being lost is fun.

Baldur's Gate just drops you in the world after the Candlekeeptutorial and you're free to go wherever you wish.  At that point, you have no idea where things are, not idea what the central plot is, and only a single piece of suspect advice to guide you.

That was terrific.

And it was fitting for the game's plot, because you had never left Candlekeep before.

[The_Abyss]

Baldur's gate 1 was way worse for beginnings - the reason I could never play that game more than twice. Making a level 1 mage in a DnD game generally sucks though.

[kyles3]

ostagar is great. the worst bit is obviously the fade.

[Sylvius the Mad]

The_Abyss wrote...

Making a level 1 mage in a DnD game generally sucks though.

I want all games to start like that.  Level 1 characters should be incredibly fragile and useless.

[Sloth Of Doom]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

The_Abyss wrote...

Making a level 1 mage in a DnD game generally sucks though.

I want all games to start like that.  Level 1 characters should be incredibly fragile and useless.

Heh we just started a PnP 1e D&D game with 4 players.  Hardcore character creation:  Roll 3d6 for your stats which are assigned in the order you roll them, no rerolls.  Pick a class based on what you quaify for.   We have a party of 4 mages. Is it hard?  Oh hell yes.  Is it fun?   Also, oh hell yes.

[Kohaku]

@Sloth Of Doom - I want to play table top D&D so bad, I never have. However, all of my friends are console/PC gamers so that knocks that idea out of the water.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Sloth Of Doom wrote...

I agree with the OP here, to some extent. The problem isn't that the after-intro forced area is ever done poorly. Quite the contrary it is usually has more detail than later areas. The problem is that bioware games beg ofr second, third, fourth and fifth playtthroughs and every single time you have to truck through an area which is basically a tutorial and contains tons of exposition. It loses it's flair on multiple runthroughs and there is simply no way to skip it.

I think skipping ti would be detrimental.  Each time I start the game I'm playing a new class or have a different spell selection, and the Ostagar/Wilds section has enough variety in it to allow me to get to know my character's abilities, and do so before I start adding a lot of other companions whose abilities I also have to learn (No-Follower-Auto-Level, so I have to learn them all anew as a team each time, plus I tend to change up what my regular group is).

My first time through I was a Mage with a lot of crowd control.

My second time through I was a Rogue Archer.

My third time through I was a DW Warrior.

My fourth time through was a Mage loaded with Hexes and Glyphs.

I have 4 more characters to go and each one is different.  I don't see Ostagar getting old.  but then, I like replaying low-level areas.  I remember when I played EverQuest; I played for almost two years and never had a character reach level 20.

[the_one_54321]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

The_Abyss wrote...
Making a level 1 mage in a DnD game generally sucks though.

I want all games to start like that.  Level 1 characters should be incredibly fragile and useless.

You know, even a LV1 character in D&D is considered much stronger than any commoner class.