58 réponses à ce sujet

[Zeluron]

I don't know if it's because I'm getting old or something but lately I've been getting disillusioned with these modern Bioware rpgs. There's things bugging me and  I'm going to figure it out in the only way I know how.. a long waffling fourm post!

Dragon Age and Mass Effect both seem to be very linear slogs through heaps of dialogue and masses of monsters. Things that bug me are just how carefuly constraint the levels feel. What I mean is, every item, event and enemy feels planted for you in a specific point along the game as if some friendly level designer put it there as if to say "You've got this far, here's an item/enemy/event for you". I compare these factors with Baldur's Gate and it all felt so much more free. In Baldur's  Gate 1n2 you start out with a little liniarity and then the world opens up! You can go adventure around freely, though there's still the plot  peering over your shoulder of course, but you're free to go and do miniquests or randomly explore the country side  ect. This part of the game let's you have a UNIQUE experiance and this part is lacking in  Dragon Age.

Dragon Age  sticks me on a path and keeps me on it. The game is basicly a set of areas collected into groups. There's the intro areas, Dalish Elf areas, Mage Tower areas..ect.. and I'm expected to go through them all in sucession, find every single item and kill every monster, turn over every stone and go through every dialogue.You may not experiance this, but.. this kind of level design brings out the perfectionist in me, I've got to do everything no matter how boring it is.. the perfect example of this is the dream sequence and collecting all those stat bonuses.. Bloody boring but I had to do it. In Baldur's Gate I feel so much more free to do what I want and then when I'm ready I'll move onto the main plot, but it never feels like a streight path or a set of tick boxes.

A modern game that's really impressed me is Fallout3, now I've played Oblivion, a game with.. other problems.. most of which have been fixed in Fallout. Now Fallout kept me interested for so much longer than Dragon Age and Mass Effect have. The reason for this is because Fallout3 is different every time, it's a big open world full of random encounters, and I don't mean random monsters. In Fallout one playthrough you'll find three people  fighting over a fridge in a specific point on the map, while the next play through you'll find an alien crash site there. The game is open, different every time and free and I think that kind of world keeps your mind more alert to what could be happening and thus it's more fun.

Now I really enjoyed Jade Empire, a game designed just like Dragon Age, very linear but had a great story. It was a blast and I rated the game highly but I still only played through it once, another play through I became bored and I quit. That's the main problem with these kinds of Bioware Rpgs, they are so much more a story than a game. You pick up a book and read it, you play a modern Bioware game, play it once and then leave it on the shelf to gather dust. The problem is, games are expensive and I have no life, I need my games to last longer and remain enjoyable!

Thus I come to Neverwinter Nights (10/10) which had an excellent campaign (many would disagree) but again, I only played through it once.. the real reason Neverwinter was so great and stole over five years of my life was because it was online and had such a brilliant  editor.. every day was different and that's what keeps people interested.

I love you, Bioware.. Dragon Age is a great story but it makes a poor computer game. I need games that either have good multiplayer or are designed in a more open, free way.. Maybe if Dragon Age rendered the entire region on the map and you could explore between the main plot points it would have been a better experiance. If I buy your new expansion pack I'll get it, play through it.. might take me three days.. and that's it.. hurrar (This was sarcasm btw). There might be reason to play through it once more as the other alignment but since (Assuming it's like the OC) every peice of loot and enemy encounter will be the same as the previous playthrough and.. I know it'll be bloody boring.

Modifié par Zeluron, 11 mars 2010 - 12:49 .

[Vicious]

You know what I got from your post?



You prefer relatively open-ended RPG's vs. linear ones.



So if I helped you reach some sort of understanding of your inner RPG gamer, that you could only get if someone else confirmed it, then you are welcome.



Otherwise that was about the most pointless post I ever read.

[Zeluron]

By the way, I know how fourm members can be but try and keep to constructive comments, trolling is a waste of pixel space.



And, yea, you could say Dragon Age is supposed to be linear and is supposed to be played once over but that doesn't make it a better game, does it? Or maybe it does? Perhaps there's nothing broken here? I dissagree.

[NKKKK]

BAWWWWWW BIOWArrrEEEEEEE

[Kimarous]

He's right, though. Reducing that post to the lowest common denominator just has you saying "I favour open-ended RPGs over linear ones". That is not a fault of Bioware; that's just your subjective opinion.

[Challseus]

Zeluron wrote...

And, yea, you could say Dragon Age is supposed to be linear and is supposed to be played once over but that doesn't make it a better game, does it? Or maybe it does? Perhaps there's nothing broken here? I dissagree.

Who says it's only supposed to be played once?! I mean, while I have only played it once, I am excited about starting a new origin, and doing things differently. Just talking to a friend and listening to his experience, as well as the massive spoilers people post on the non-spoiler forums, I realize that I missed out on a lot.

Oh and personally, I love the story in more linear games. Open ended games like Fallout 3 and Oblivion didn't do it for me, story wise. Hell, I love the hell out of Baldur's Gate 1, but I was never impressed with the story. It was more the atmosphere, music, and gameplay.

*Shrug*

[errant_knight]

See, I'm the opposite. I much prefer a game with a tight, structured story, rather than one with open play. I like the feeling that I'm in something like a book, directly involved with a strong plot. Stories are linear. They have a beginning, middle, and end--they have a building intensity as the reach the resolution. They simply aren't as effective in open play. I'm more interested in having the story unfold in a dramatic fashion than in wandering through the game to where my own whims take me, rather than where the story requires.

Modifié par errant_knight, 11 mars 2010 - 01:07 .

[Zeluron]

I guess you're right, and you all think linear is best? Because I can't play through this game more than once. Have you played through it more than once and found it's still fun? Is it worth the money?

[Kimarous]

Challseus wrote...

Oh and personally, I love the story in more linear games. Open ended games like Fallout 3 and Oblivion didn't do it for me, story wise.

Amen. Open-ended RPGs tend to have terrible stories... or at the very least, terrible MAIN stories. Oblivion's only half-decent plotline was the Dark Brotherhood, and the only questline I praise in Fallout 3 is The Pitt DLC, featuring what I consider the best, most greyest moral choice ever.

That isn't to say that I don't have fun with those games, but I never play them for the "story", as I do in Bioware titles. It would be terrible if all RPGs became like them. As I once said on another forum: "As much as I like sandboxes, I don't want a desert."

[Zeluron]

Alright case closed then, it must be and not Dragon Age.. still, I'll be back when Bioware makes something more lasting.

[Calahas]

Well, to be honest, that's the thing I didn't really like about Oblivion: it was too open at times. Sometimes, it felt as if the main plot wasn't important. To me, that's what is important in an RPG, a compelling reason to finish the main story.



I will agree though, I despise redoing the Broken Circle quest and, to a lesser extent, the Paragon of her Kind. Broken Circle, well, I despise puzzles, and the Paragon of her Kind is fun but it seems like it goes on forever. But I really enjoy everything else, yes.

[Cuthlan]

I don't want 100% linear. I do like how Dragon Age is linear in that you have a set of goals to accomplish to proceed, yet it's not in that you can do them in any order that you want.

I loved the Baldur's Gate series. But sometimes that exploration and freedom actually took away some of the immersion for me. I mean, you have a goal, and you have very clear destinations to accomplish those goals, and pressure to accomplish them as quickly as you can. Yet there are all of these side quests and side areas that have absolutely nothing to do with the primary goal that you can spend months and months of game time screwing around with. And if you don't do those things you miss out on a lot of good items and good sources of experience that you kind of need to accomplish the main goal.  It kills the sense of urgency that is supposed to be there.

I never thought I'd say it, but I really think I prefer Dragon Age to Baldur's Gate. At least from that standpoint.

Modifié par Cuthlan, 11 mars 2010 - 01:13 .

[errant_knight]

Zeluron wrote...

I guess you're right, and you all think linear is best? Because I can't play through this game more than once. Have you played through it more than once and found it's still fun? Is it worth the money?

I'm on my fourth playthrough and have still uncovered new dialogue-and that's playing characters in various shades of 'good'. I don't play 'evil'. There are still that many choices. And I haven't even tried the other origins than Human Noble yet. I've never played a game that I really enjoyed playing more than once before.

Half the time, I don't even finish games. I routinely get bored, partly because the story usually peters out before the end leaving only an insurmountable puzzle or battle, but this one keeps you guessing right to the last minute.

My fifth playthrough will be as a Dalish elf, I think.

Modifié par errant_knight, 11 mars 2010 - 01:16 .

[Kimarous]

Zeluron wrote...

I guess you're right, and you all think linear is best? Because I can't play through this game more than once. Have you played through it more than once and found it's still fun? Is it worth the money?

Heck yes. I replay games all the time and never are two runs the exact same... or at least, not for a long time. For example, I might play a good guy one time, evil the next, then a good girl, then a neutral character, then evil again, etc. Variation is the spice of life and what keeps games like this strong.

Then again, I'm also the type with an overactive imagination who likes to "purge out the canon" and think up my own explanations for things, cook up my own scenarios, etc. (and all in my mind, too; none of that "modding" cahooey).

[EmperorSahlertz]

A book you pick up read and place back on the bookshelf. A great book you pick up read and it stays with you for a long time, in some cases your entire life. Wether or not a book is great or not is entirely subjective however.

Wether Dragon Age will remain with me for my entire life remains to be seen, but I think its a great game.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Zeluron wrote...

I guess you're right, and you all think linear is best? Because I can't play through this game more than once. Have you played through it more than once and found it's still fun? Is it worth the money?

Played it 5 times. I heard people had 10 playthroughs.
The key, for me, is to create a very different mindset for each character. DA helps us do that because of the variety of choices and origins. It's a tight and structured story, but it can be played with different mindsets and different decisions can be taken, without deviating too much.

But it depends on what kind of player you are.  

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

You're entitled to your opinion, but I disagree. Dragon age has plenty og open ended play. You can do the quests in any order you wish., pursue a bunch of sidequests at your leisure, ect. Baldur's Gate was great for it's time, but nowadays, it isn't that spectacular. And I only replayed it twice. DA I'm on my 9th playthrough.

[Noir201]

Open world rpg's while the idea is sound, most of the time it doesn't work, alot of the open world rpg's, in some ways mmo's follow the same path, 50% of it is waste, it nice to wonder about round a area or world and marvel at the freedom, but what can you do in them?

Kill same mob x times, wonder in a house which by the time you searched, found nothing but a shell.

The most famous type of rpg that follow this type of path was Shenmue, on the Dreamcast, you could pick almost anything up, you could speak to anybody, despite all this freedom, it was masking its biggest flaw, substance.

Long story short, a rpg that has meaning and substance fairs better then a rpg which is open ended but without any soul.

Ofc this is my point of view.

[krylo]

Zeluron wrote...

I guess you're right, and you all think linear is best? Because I can't play through this game more than once. Have you played through it more than once and found it's still fun? Is it worth the money?

Yes.

Many times.

I'm having trouble plowing through Ostagar/Lothering at this point, but, even though you're brought through the same areas, there's many different ways to solve them.  Kill the elves?  Kill the wolves?  Kill neither and cure the curse?  Kill Branka and destroy the anvil, Kill Caridin and save it, Kill Caridin and convince Branka it must be destroyed?  Become queen, become king, make Alistair King, make Anora Queen, make them Marry?  Kill Connor, Kill Isolde, Make Isolde Kill Connor...

Really there's lots of different ways to handle the story.  While the overarching story might be rather linear the route to get there isn't.

[Cuthlan]

Zeluron wrote...

Alright case closed then, it must be and not Dragon Age.. still, I'll be back when Bioware makes something more lasting.

Keep in mind that you're doing the equivalent of walking into a church and asking if everyone believes in God.

There are people that feel the way you do, and there is nothing wrong with differing opinions. Especially when respectfully presented like you did instead of the OMG DRAGNOAGE AND BIWARE SUX we seem to get.

There is some replayability in Dragon Age that is similar to the different paths in BG2, taking different sides to accomplish the same end goal.

[Calahas]

Yeah, I'm on my third playthrough. I'm trying to make this guy evil, but there's still so many "good" or "neutral" options, and I want to use up all of them before becoming a downright ass.

[thegreateski]

Sounds like the OP should pick up Oblivion or perhaps a nice MMO.



Mind you I said a "NICE" MMO. Not that grind for 7 hours so you can buy the "Xbox Huge shoulders of walrus slaying" type MMO.

[NightmarezAbound]

I find this game amazing to replay, I am still discovering new things, and I asm on my 6th playthorugh. If you only play this game once and put it on the shelf you are doing yourself a diservice. Between the choices that can be made, how the game interacts with each origin differently. There is quite a bit of replayability.



yes it is a linear build, but BioWare has done this style since KOTOR. should have realised what you were buying, not like it hasn't been there style for the most part for the last decade.



Oblivion I liked it, for the most part. But it was so open, it was easy to get very sidetracked. Oh, yeah, gates to the realm of a HellGod are opening all over, I think I am going to break into this merchants warehouse instead as I climb my way up the ranks of the Theives Guild.

[melkathi]

Not sure why this thread is in the "Awakening" section. It's not really about the expansion



I would prefer some openess, some more choice. Bioware games seem to follow the scheme: you are thrown into the plot and turn out to be someone special, unlike anyone else. You have to achieve your goal and to do that you have to journey to (~4) different locations, in the order of your choosing, and at each are confronted with a critical situation and two or three ways of solving it, once you have fought your way to the end. Once the locations are all sorted, you travel to one more location, the story goes back on track and you journey on to the end.



This has an up side of course.

You do not run the danger of, while exploring as far away from the main quest as you could, unlocking a door in an auto repair shop, find the basement and suddenly skip two thirds of the story...