126 réponses à ce sujet

[Peer of the Empire]

Thane is pretty good with max shredder.

tonnactus wrote...

Peer of the Empire wrote...

Wrong.  Jack is useless for a vanguard on grunt's recruitment.  Miranda does everything

Yes, but with a global cooldown the worth of versatility degrees.
And miranda dont have any cooldown or power bonuses in her class talent.
In addition to that,she would only have low level warp and overload at this time,where specialists could have full evolved versions.(Mordin with area incinerate for example)
Some people still dont understand that.
So Garrus or Zaeed(disruptor tears through shields) and Mordin are far better for this mission, even for a vanguard.

I'm bringing Zaeed with Miranda.

I don't like to manage squad powers, so that lessens the advantages of Mordin's incinerate.  If Miranda has area overload by now, then she will be overloading multiple enemies much of the time.  Mordin will sometimes incinerate.

Modifié par Peer of the Empire, 14 mars 2010 - 10:18 .

[Ehrgeix]

I think it's important when saying that miranda gives you an extra 15% damage to realize that actually she doesn't. Say you have +20% damage from your class passive, +50% damage from heavy warp ammo and +30% damage from weapon upgrades, you're already dealing 200% damage and miranda's passive is actually more like 7.5% damage. Note there's a thread on how % stacking/ammo powers actually work and it might turn out that miranda's +15% is more like 9% or something in that situation, but the point is the same -- a soldier with +140% damage from adrenaline rush, +15% from (the soldier's) passive and +50% from upgrades has +205% damage - 100 base damage actually deals 305 damage (again, hypothetically assuming stuff stacks in this way). If you add miranda's passive to this they end up dealing 320 damage - so miranda's damage passive would be just +5% real damage in this situation. Her health passive doesn't devalue so badly, but it still ends up less significant by the end of the game.

(Note that this isn't an argument that miranda is bad - warp, overload and her passive are a great set of abilities, but I think that in most missions later in the game, with most classes, you can find a squad that will handle the mission better than miranda + someone.)

Modifié par Ehrgeix, 14 mars 2010 - 09:57 .

[Peer of the Empire]

Ehrgeix wrote...

I think it's important when saying that miranda gives you an extra 15% damage to realize that actually she doesn't. Say you have +20% damage from your class passive, +50% damage from heavy warp ammo and +30% damage from weapon upgrades, you're already dealing 200% damage and miranda's passive is actually more like 7.5% damage. Note there's a thread on how % stacking/ammo powers actually work and it might turn out that miranda's +15% is more like 9% or something in that situation, but the point is the same -- a soldier with +140% damage from adrenaline rush, +15% from (the soldier's) passive and +50% from upgrades has +205% damage - 100 base damage actually deals 305 damage (again, hypothetically assuming stuff stacks in this way). If you add miranda's passive to this they end up dealing 320 damage - so miranda's damage passive would be just +5% real damage in this situation. Her health passive doesn't devalue so badly, but it still ends up less significant by the end of the game.

(Note that this isn't an argument that miranda is bad - warp, overload and her passive are a great set of abilities, but I think that in most missions later in the game, with most classes, you can find a squad that will handle the mission better than miranda + someone.)

I'm sure many have already thought about this.  The damage boost is still significant, as the caveat applies to everyone's numbers.

I'm not big on having to manage squad powers.  In my experience the best team for most enemies is Thane + Legion with appropriate equipment and ammo.  Next is Miranda + Legion, and then Miranda + Thane.  Miranda is the best shield stripper over Zaeed and Garrus, and her damage isn't bad with squad incendiary.  Legion benefits particularly from her damage boost, and both Legion and Thane are great when only health is left.

Now if one takes a personal interest in managing squad powers, Samara becomes one of the best, and Mordin and Garrus become better.

Modifié par Peer of the Empire, 14 mars 2010 - 10:33 .

[tonnactus]

Iz Stoik zI wrote...

There's nothing wrong with SMG's.

What??
Horrable accuracy and recoil.They dont come even close with sniper and assault rifles.
Thank god that i dont have to use this piece of junk junk after the collector ship. The vindicator is so much superior, its hard to describe.Even shotguns are better,especially the cerberus shotgun,who has a decent range and damage.It also improve all shotgun wielders a lot like jacob.

Miranda gives the entire squad 15% weapon damage or health. That alone makes her the most valuable squadmate in most situations of the game. Like it or not, +15% damage for Shepard AND everyone else is a lot better than any damage that Thane can bring to the table.

No,it isnt.In this game,not only shepardt is good at shooting.Thane,with a sniper rifle combined with drell assasin and samara with the far superior vindicator are better against collectors.Area reave with warp,combined with greater weapon damage.

In addition to that, her bonus power isn't useless.

It is,because you couldnt max it to the area version if you want to have evolved versions of warp,overload and class.
So she has only one point in it.Not impressive.

 But Thane switches Cryo Ammo out for +HEALTH DAMAGE, which is all but useless in this game.

No one force you to make his loyality mission early.

Miranda is quite a bit better than Thane overall.

Miranda not even come close to thane.The viper is not that far away from the widow and that combined with drell assasin...
Okay,she is maybee better for vanguards who make most of the kills theirself.Thats it.

EDIT: Not 100% sure here but I don't think that Warp Ammo detonates on impact. I'm pretty sure that it only does double damage against enemies affected by biotic powers.

Its the same for warp.It also did double damage only when target is affected by biotics.

[tonnactus]

Peer of the Empire wrote...
  Miranda is the best shield stripper over Zaeed and Garrus,

Did you ever read garrus class description?
25 percent power damage.How could Miranda be a better shield stripper when you think about that??
Squad disruptor is also a lot better then overload,because you activate it once and use it the whole mission.And it doesnt have a 12 second cooldown...

Modifié par tonnactus, 14 mars 2010 - 10:43 .

[Iz Stoik zI]

Lol.



Alright, you can take Thane over Miranda. Everyone with an adequate amount of brain cells realizes that Miranda is the most useful squadmate in the game, and if you don't want to realize that then it's your perrogative. Your arguments are baseless and generally pretty ridiculous.

[Iz Stoik zI]

I decided to pick this apart anyways, I'm bored.

tonnactus wrote...

What??
Horrable accuracy and recoil.They dont come even close with sniper and assault rifles.
Thank god that i dont have to use this piece of junk junk after the collector ship. The vindicator is so much superior, its hard to describe.Even shotguns are better,especially the cerberus shotgun,who has a decent range and damage.It also improve all shotgun wielders a lot like jacob.

What is your point in comparing the SMG to AR's and SR's? The SMG is a fast shooting mid-range pocket weapon that, while not as useful as say the VIndicator, still does it's job well enough. Also want to know the great thing about allies using weapons? No recoil and exceptional accuracy. The two main problems with SMG's are essentially eliminated.

No,it isnt.In this game,not only shepardt is good at shooting.Thane,with a sniper rifle combined with drell assasin and samara with the far superior vindicator are better against collectors.Area reave with warp,combined with greater weapon damage.

Only Shepard is good at shooting? Um, alright then.

It's true that Miranda's bonus would affect Shepard the most. 15% weapon damage to Shepard is miles above the bonus that squadmates get, no doubt. Since squadmates (like THANE) have reduced weapon damage compared to Shepard, +damage for them is really not as effective as it makes it seem. +15% weapon damage for Shepard is essentially a greater bonus than +50% damage for Thane, especially when combined with the somewhat minor benefit that your allies get from it as well.

And you're arguing that Thane with Samara is far superior, but that's a ridiculous argument since Miranda and Samara would do the same thing with MORE DAMAGE FOR SHEPARD.

It is,because you couldnt max it to the area version if you want to have evolved versions of warp,overload and class.

Not the point. Even a single point in Slam is better than 10 points in Shredder Ammo because it doesn't cause Squad Cryo Ammo to be overwritten and it also has other uses (incapacitation, Husk killing).

So she has only one point in it.Not impressive.

Again, doesn't matter. 1 point in an active ability is better than 1 point in a terrible passive ammo ability.

No one force you to make his loyality mission early.

So Thane only starts to screw up my strategy late in the game? Great to know.

Miranda not even come close to thane.The viper is not that far away from the widow and that combined with drell assasin...
Okay,she is maybee better for vanguards who make most of the kills theirself.Thats it.

This makes no sense whatsoever. If you're relying on Thane to make most of your kills, then you're either playing an Engineer/Adept or you're terrible at the game. You can tell me which. If it's the former, then Thane is arguably better for you than Miranda. But for the majority of classes in this game Miranda is more useful overall. Get over it.

Its the same for warp.It also did double damage only when target is affected by biotics.

What game are you playing? 

Warp Ammo does double damage to targets affected by biotic abilities (Pull, Singularity, "Lift" part of Slam) while Warp explodes and damages all nearby enemies when used on biotic affected enemies. Big difference.

Modifié par Iz Stoik zI, 14 mars 2010 - 11:13 .

[mundus66]

Ehrgeix wrote...

I think it's important when saying that miranda gives you an extra 15% damage to realize that actually she doesn't. Say you have +20% damage from your class passive, +50% damage from heavy warp ammo and +30% damage from weapon upgrades, you're already dealing 200% damage and miranda's passive is actually more like 7.5% damage. Note there's a thread on how % stacking/ammo powers actually work and it might turn out that miranda's +15% is more like 9% or something in that situation, but the point is the same -- a soldier with +140% damage from adrenaline rush, +15% from (the soldier's) passive and +50% from upgrades has +205% damage - 100 base damage actually deals 305 damage (again, hypothetically assuming stuff stacks in this way). If you add miranda's passive to this they end up dealing 320 damage - so miranda's damage passive would be just +5% real damage in this situation. Her health passive doesn't devalue so badly, but it still ends up less significant by the end of the game.

(Note that this isn't an argument that miranda is bad - warp, overload and her passive are a great set of abilities, but I think that in most missions later in the game, with most classes, you can find a squad that will handle the mission better than miranda + someone.)

You do know that some powers are multipliable and some are addable right? Almost every passive bonus is addable but still 15% base damage aint to shabby. I think powers like adrenaline rush and assassination cloak are multipliable but im not sure.

Anyway lets compare her damage boost to Thanes, he gets 50% she gets what? 20% herself + another 15% as well as giving shepard and the last squad member 15%. 15% damage for Shepard alone almost makes up for the 50% damage boost Thanes gets. Plus she actually sticks to a good ammo type unlike Thane.

If you check my list i ranked Thane pretty high though and my favorite team is Miranda and Thane when im Vanguard or Adept, those warp explotions are crazy. She is better than Thane, but he is still one of the best squad mates, just not as good as Miranda. Samara is the best when you fight collectors though, since reave is sick.

Modifié par mundus66, 14 mars 2010 - 11:34 .

[tonnactus]

[quote]Iz Stoik zI wrote...



And you're arguing that Thane with Samara is far superior, but that's a ridiculous argument since Miranda and Samara would do the same thing with MORE DAMAGE FOR SHEPARD.

[quote]
I just have to ask.Did you ever tried other combinations of squadmembers without miranda?How many classes you played?
I did and get far better results without her.
I just give enough examples and people like you still repeat nonsense.Like that she was a better shield stripper then garrus...

[tonnactus]

mundus66 wrote...



Anyway lets compare her damage boost to Thanes, he gets 50% she gets what? 20% herself + another 15% as well as giving shepard and the last squad member 15%. 15% damage for Shepard alone almost makes up for the 50% damage boost Thanes gets.

The bonus thane gets through drell assasin is one thing.Another is that he use sniper rifles...
Even as a soldier or infiltrator,a second sniper never hurts.

[mundus66]

tonnactus wrote...

The bonus thane gets through drell assasin is one thing.Another is that he use sniper rifles...
Even as a soldier or infiltrator,a second sniper never hurts.

Funny you should say that, when most mobs in this game has shields or barriers. And smg is cleary better vs this, this can be fixed with disruptor ammo or warp ammo, but Thane doesn't stick with either...

Modifié par mundus66, 14 mars 2010 - 11:43 .

[Iz Stoik zI]

tonnactus wrote...

I just have to ask.Did you ever tried other combinations of squadmembers without miranda?How many classes you played?
I did and get far better results without her.
I just give enough examples and people like you still repeat nonsense.Like that she was a better shield stripper then garrus...

I have played 3 classes, the Vanguard, Soldier, and Sentinel. I have tried many combinations of squadmates, even going through a playthrough using mainly Tali and Grunt and Garrus and Thane, and EVERY SINGLE TIME I realize my squad would be more effective if I brought Miranda along.

Your "examples" are terrible. Thane is a good character, and I ranked him as my 3rd favourite squadmate, but he is outclassed by Miranda nine times out of ten. Her squad bonus to weapon damage is worth far, far more than Thane's 50% damage increase for himself, and she sticks to the ammo I fricking assign to her.

Give it up. Thane is a top tier squadmate, but Miranda is a step above him -- and everyone else too.

Also I have never said that she is a better shield stripper than Garrus, but wouldn't their Overloads have the same effect if at the same level? Even if that's not the case, 90% of the time Miranda and Garrus are my two squadmates so it doesn't matter to me in the end. In fact, as a Vanguard player I actually prefer it when my enemies have some protection left so that they don't go anywhere when I charge them.

Anyways, let's put a stop to your baseless arguments please.

Modifié par Iz Stoik zI, 14 mars 2010 - 11:45 .

[tonnactus]

mundus66 wrote...

tonnactus wrote...

The bonus thane gets through drell assasin is one thing.Another is that he use sniper rifles...
Even as a soldier or infiltrator,a second sniper never hurts.

Funny you should say that, when most mobs in this game has shields or barriers.

The viper is quite good against shields/barriers at all ranges.Also,the smg has higher multipliers,but the viper has a higher base damage comined with multipliers against shields and barriers.

[Iz Stoik zI]

tonnactus wrote...

The viper is quite good against shields/barriers at all ranges.Also,the smg has higher multipliers,but the viper has a higher base damage comined with multipliers against shields and barriers.

The Viper has 1.15x multipliers against Shields and Barriers while the Tempest has 1.5 x multipliers.

Combine this with the fact that allies with Snipers rarely, if ever, fire off more than a few shots at a time, and then the SMG doesn't look too bad in Miranda's hands. She'll strip shields and barriers as well as anyone else, and once they're down then she actually has my Cryo ammo equipped so she can immediately start freezing our enemies in place.

Modifié par Iz Stoik zI, 14 mars 2010 - 11:58 .

[tonnactus]

Iz Stoik zI wrote...



I have played 3 classes, the Vanguard, Soldier, and Sentinel. I have tried many combinations of squadmates, even going through a playthrough using mainly Tali and Grunt and Garrus and Thane, and EVERY SINGLE TIME I realize my squad would be more effective if I brought Miranda along.

I played all classes.I choose Reasonable combinations.There is no way for example in grunts recruitment mission a combination of mordin and garrus/zaeed would be less effizient than one with miranda and someone else.

Modifié par tonnactus, 15 mars 2010 - 12:02 .

[Iz Stoik zI]

tonnactus wrote...

I played all classes.I choose Reasonable combinations.There is no way for example in grunts recruitment mission a combination of mordin and garrus/zaeed would be less effizient than one with miranda and someone else.

Basis or proof?

+Weapon damage for Shepard is worth more than almost anything else any squadmate can bring to the table for most classes. Since you will likely be firing your gun a LOT and getting the majority of the kills (since the AI is pretty stupid), then any bonus to your individual killing speed is better than a bonus to a single squadmate's damage.

Miranda and Anyone works better than any combination without her 90% of the time.

[tonnactus]

Iz Stoik zI wrote...

Basis or proof?

Proof?Videos??
Ok,some arguments.Garrus and Mordin have evolved versions at this time.(Incinerate+ Overload)
If you want versatility on miranda,she has at best something like level 2 warp and overload at this time and 1-2 points in her class talent.Warp is weaker against armor then incinerate and she has only a low level warp.Also mordin has his special tech upgrade that improves his tech damage and also improves his incinerate.So the armor of the krogan beserkers went down a lot faster when using him then using miranda.

[tonnactus]

Iz Stoik zI wrote...

tonnactus wrote...

The viper is quite good against shields/barriers at all ranges.Also,the smg has higher multipliers,but the viper has a higher base damage comined with multipliers against shields and barriers.

The Viper has 1.15x multipliers against Shields and Barriers while the Tempest has 1.5 x multipliers.

Multipliers are one thing.The base damage that is used for the multiplication for it is another.

[mundus66]

tonnactus wrote...

Iz Stoik zI wrote...



I have played 3 classes, the Vanguard, Soldier, and Sentinel. I have tried many combinations of squadmates, even going through a playthrough using mainly Tali and Grunt and Garrus and Thane, and EVERY SINGLE TIME I realize my squad would be more effective if I brought Miranda along.

I played all classes.I choose Reasonable combinations.There is no way for example in grunts recruitment mission a combination of mordin and garrus/zaeed would be less effizient than one with miranda and someone else.

That level is packed with both mobs that have lots of shields and mobs with lots of armor. Guess what? Miranda has, both warp and overload. Mordin is the king vs armor which makes him better for the last part of the mission. But early in the mission she is definitely better and i would say the most effective squad for that mission is Garrus and Miranda. But since  that early in the game i never have any ammo power myself i usually bring Jacob with squad incendiary and Miranda for max damage output and warp explotions.

I have played every class a full run through insanity and for nearly every mission Miranda is always the best squad member to bring. There are some exceptions though like loyalty missions, since there you are forced to bring 1 member. So for like Grunts loyalty mission i like Mordin more, since he is the best vs armor. But every mission where you can choose both squad members the optimal team has Miranda in it.

[Iz Stoik zI]

tonnactus wrote...

Proof?Videos??
Ok,some arguments.Garrus and Mordin have evolved versions at this time.(Incinerate+ Overload)
If you want versatility on miranda,she has at best something like level 2 warp and overload at this time and 1-2 points in her class talent.Warp is weaker against armor then incinerate and she has only a low level warp.Also mordin has his special tech upgrade that improves his tech damage and also improves his incinerate.So the armor of the krogan beserkers went down a lot faster when using him then using miranda.

I didn't necessarily mean videos, simple statistics would have been good enough.

At that point in the game (for me, starting at level 5) Miranda has her class talent maxed out and generally has 2 points in Warp and maybe 1 in Overload. So no, her abilities are not as effective as other characters at this point, but the fact that she is increasing my damage by 15% makes up for this AND MORE since I'm going to be doing most of the killing.

This is not putting down the other characters, it is simply stating facts. Miranda is THE BEST squadmate in the game in almost every situation. Period, end of story.

[tonnactus]

mundus66 wrote...




That level is packed with both mobs that have lots of shields and mobs with lots of armor. Guess what? Miranda has, both warp and overload.

Low level warp and overload.Garrus has area overload at this time and Mordin area incinerate.Both defenses are covered,and that better then with miranda.Also,Mordin has freeze and garrus concussive shot,a little crowd control which could be really helpfull at the last part of the mission with jedore.

Mordin is the king vs armor which makes him better for the last part of the mission.

Dont forget the middle one against the krogan berserkers.He saves a lot of bullets there.

But since  that early in the game i never have any ammo power myself i usually bring Jacob with squad incendiary and Miranda for max damage output and warp explotions.

As a vanguard i guess.This make sense then.

I have played every class a full run through insanity and for nearly every mission Miranda is always the best squad member to bring.

I disagree.At best this is true for weapon classes,but not even then when people dont overate the pity addional weapon damage.(for example,sniper rifle with headshot damage and armor piercing,what a role plays Mirandas addition weapon damage there)
Nearly all other techs and biotics have additional cooldown/duration or power damage.So there are a lot better options for defense stripping then miranda.The same is true for warp expolsion.Jacobs pull has a nine second cooldown,mirandas warp 12 seconds.Sheaprdts warp has 6 seconds.So guess what squadmember is better for warp explosions?

[tonnactus]

Iz Stoik zI wrote...



I didn't necessarily mean videos, simple statistics would have been good enough.

At that point in the game (for me, starting at level 5) Miranda has her class talent maxed out and generally has 2 points in Warp and maybe 1 in Overload. So no, her abilities are not as effective as other characters at this point, but the fact that she is increasing my damage by 15% makes up for this AND MORE since I'm going to be doing most of the killing.

Really interesting.What class that you could waste so much bullets?Soldier?

[Iz Stoik zI]

tonnactus wrote...

Really interesting.What class that you could waste so much bullets?Soldier?

You're really taking ammo usage into consideration when choosing squadmates?

I have a serious question for you: why do you put so much value into your squadmates defense stripping abilities in the early portion of the game? A Vorcha's armor can be blown off with 3 Carnifex shots. A Blue Suns merc's shield can be destroyed with a two second burst from an SMG or can be easily removed with a level 2 Overload. I really don't understand why you are trying to place allies protection removal abilities above 15% squad weapon damage -- it's quite baffling, to be honest.

As for your question, ammo in this game is not in short supply. If you're the type of player that "sprays and prays" then I think you need to change up your strategy, but if played properly then ammo should almost NEVER be a problem for any class.

For example, to kill a Blue suns merc as a Vanguard during Grunt's recruitment it generally takes no more than two shots from my Eviscerator with perhaps a melee mixed in. Considering the fact that at least 1/3 enemies drops a thermal clip after being killed, it's actually hard to run out of ammo this way. Other classes, like the Adept, Engineer, and Sentinel have abilities to supplement their weapon when necessary. The Infiltrator is a one-shot-kill specialist and they have Incinerate to help them out when necessary. Soldiers have a large selection of weapons to choose from so ammo is never really a problem. And Vanguards generally just charge and fire and punch and really don't worry about ammo until there's no more reserve shots.

Your arguments don't make sense. Slightly improved protection removal skills on certain allies does not change the fact that 15% weapon damage is the best passive ability any squadmate brings to the table.

Give it up. Miranda > Everyone else for almost every player, whether you want to admit it or not. This is not an insult to the other squadmates, it is simply fact.

Modifié par Iz Stoik zI, 15 mars 2010 - 01:16 .

[tonnactus]

Iz Stoik zI wrote...

tonnactus wrote...

Really interesting.What class that you could waste so much bullets?Soldier?

You're really taking ammo usage into consideration when choosing squadmates?

I have a serious question for you: why do you put so much value into your squadmates defense stripping abilities in the early portion of the game? A Vorcha's armor can be blown off with 3 Carnifex shots.

Great.And how much i would need for the armor of a krogan beserker if i dont use any abilities?Its hard to take you serious after this point...

Modifié par tonnactus, 15 mars 2010 - 01:20 .

[Iz Stoik zI]

tonnactus wrote...

Great.And how much i would need for the armor of a krogan beserker if i dont use any abilities?It hard to take you serious after this point...

Wow. Are you dense?

It doesn't take long to take down the armor of a Krogan Berserker. A Warp from Miranda followed by bullets for a couple seconds or less is enough to do it.

Again, your points make no sense. Put forward a good argument, ot simply save yourself time and stop posting here.

Modifié par Iz Stoik zI, 15 mars 2010 - 01:22 .