92 réponses à ce sujet

[Tasker]

Jaysonie wrote...


No, it dosent. Atleast to me, and im guessing quite a few people aswell.

So what you're saying is, you like the spoon fed, go here, go there, lack of mystery and drama that ME2 has?

Fair enough, to each his or her own.



Edit,  - Ignore that, I just noticed you boldened the last paragraph.

That's just a feeling I get, it's probably not true I know that, but the complete removal of things that just needed fixing, makes the game feel like it's lacking polish to me.  It's a good game, but that's the feeling I get.

Modifié par Orkboy, 11 mars 2010 - 10:35 .

[Jaysonie]

Orkboy wrote...

Jaysonie wrote...


No, it dosent. Atleast to me, and im guessing quite a few people aswell.

So what you're saying is, you like the spoon fed, go here, go there, lack of mystery and drama that ME2 has?

Fair enough, to each his or her own.

Dont do that.....Im not in the mood for the same argument.

[Lusitanum]

Orkboy wrote...

Jaysonie wrote...


No, it dosent. Atleast to me, and im guessing quite a few people aswell.

So what you're saying is, you like the spoon fed, go here, go there, lack of mystery and drama that ME2 has?

Fair enough, to each his or her own.

What spoon fed? What lack of mystery and drama? I don't know if you've realized, but plot twists are not the basis of a good story. They might help, but it's not its lifeblood.

And what the hell is that about the "mystery" of what Saren was up to? He has got to be the most uninteressting villain Bioware has created in these last few years. He wasn't even present through most of the game, you were basically just chasing leads here and there and when you met him, he was just a puppet to the real villain. Granted, I loved ME1's story and after Virmire I just had to rush to the Citadel to see how it ended, but it sure as hell wasn't because of Mr. SockPuppet.

You want to talk about ME2 feeling episodic? What about all those demeaning side-missions in the first game, where you spent most of the time doing things that seemed like a waste of time to someone who's trying to save the galaxy. I mean, scan the keepers? Solve every single problem the Alliance has every time you set foot on a new system (seriously, don't they have anybody else to do these sort of things)? Mine minerals? Collect all the Turian Insignias? What the hell was next, catch all Pokemons?

At least most of the missions in ME2 felt like you were somehow helping your own cause, one way or another, so even if you weren't advancing the main plot, at least you still felt you were going somewhere with all that.

[sirandar]

ME2 structure is modular, which is far far easier develop.  That doesn't mean it was thrown together  BUT  I do agree that more linking and less modularity would have made the game flow better and feel more like a story than a collection of events.

Orkboy wrote...

DarthCaine wrote...

The only reason why someone thinks ME1 is more emotional is nostalgia. It's the same reason why people say BG is the best RPG ever

That FEELING is just nostalgia. It's the same reason no RPG can match my KOTOR FEELING

Sorry but I have to comment on this...

I agree with the OP about the overall feeling of the game, but it's not nostalgia.
 
How can it be nostalgia when I played ME1 nonstop for 2 weeks immediately prior to playing ME2?
How can it be nostalgia when I left ME2 after my second playthrough to go back to ME1 because it was a much richer experiance?



Disregarding the game mechanics and which was best of the 2 games, ME2s story structure is very poor compaired to ME1.

ME1 had a sense of the mystery and fear of the unknown about it, it was full of -  What will I find? What is Saren  upto?  ME2 is just a boring - Here's what you have to do, now do it.

ME1 contains that great sense of awe that truley awsome RPGs tend to have and I think it's down to the fact that the story flows from location to location with purpose and drama, whereas ME2 come across as being disjointed and episodic.

ME1 character recruitment was almost organic, even though we knew who they were in advance thanks to Biowares pre-release info, stumbling upon the team mates as we were doing other missions added to the overall experiance.

ME2 having so many  - Go here for person A - and - Go there and get person B - missions, hurt the game and made it seem much more disjointed and formulaic than it could have been. 

The simple act of ditching the dossier system and merging a few the recruitment missions into each other, then having them placed for you to stumble across as you went about doing something else, would have done wonders for the feel of the game?  The way they introduced Legion was a perfect example of this, and for me, the mystery of Legion should have been woven more into the rest of the game. 

Having Legion popup during crucial parts of other missions to help Shepard from a distance would have added drama and mystery.  - Who sent it?  Why is it helping me?  Why does it have N7 armour? 

Also, Instead of the upgrade conversation trees, Bioware could have used the need to upgrade the Normandy as a means to furthur the plot and add a sense of drama. 

Something like - 

TIM speaking with you after he gives you the Normandy and telling you that although it's the most advanced ship ever built, the Normandy isn't not up to the job of taking on the collectors. However, his sources have informed him of of an illegal weapons lab on Omega that has been working on a fancy weapon doodad that you could "borrow". 

When you get there you find the Garrus mission as it currently stands in ME2 but the area he's holed up in is the weapons lab TIM mentioned.

Making your way to him, you find out that the mercs are just using the frontal assaut to distract Garrus from realising that they've hired an assassin to kill Garrus.

The assassin turns out to be Thane, which gives the game drama and adds an added dilema.
 
- Do you help Thane? Do you help Garrus? Or is there a way to recruit them both?

As for the doodad...

- Will you escape with it?  Will you have to leave it behind?  Or will the mercs destroy it before you get a chance to  run off with it?


Now, i'm not a writer and the idea obviously would need planning out propperly, but who can say that something like that wouldn't have been more engrosing than ME2s - Go here and get person  - Go there and get person B -  missions?



ME2 whilst a good game, to me just feels flung together at the last moment.  Almost as if one day an EA exec asked - "So, hows Mass Effect 2 comming along, you must be nearly finished by now?"  and Bioware thinking - "Oh crap, we haven't started it yet, we were too busy playing Gears of War.  We better think of something quick."

[OasisForever1991]

sirandar wrote...

I kind of agree with the OP, but ME2 definitely had it's charms. Some parts of the game did have amazing "feeling". Omega and some parts of the MQ

After 2 play-throughs and a lot of thought I have come to the conclusion that I liked ME1 a fair bit better than ME2 and that is primarily due to the loss of specific RPG elements in ME2

The inventory, ammo, armor, weapons and other loot lost in ME2 I couldn't care less about. Actually I wish Bioware would remake ME1 with ME2 features. The combat was also better in ME2 IMO although it had some issues.

What I missed most about ME1 was the freedom and it's rebellious nature. ME2 forces me to serve Cerebus ..... all roleplay ends there. It was still fun but not as a RPG for me.

The best part of ME1 was getting to stick it to the Alliance and council and striking out on your own, master of your own destiny. I felt it and never wanted it to end.

In this aspect ME2 didn't even come close, the ship ever felt like it was your ship and I never really felt like the real captain even though Bioware did put some effort to try to make me feel like one in ME2. It was Cerebus's ship with Cerebus's spyware and Cerebus's crew. I hated being the Elusive mans lackey even with the paltry renegade aspect related to him. Bioware could have saved the day if Shep had a direct conflict with the Elusive Man 1/2 way through the game and Shep was given the choice to eliminate him. I was his lackey right to the end.

Thanks for that Sirandar that's the words I was looking for "freedom and "rebellious nature". Even though we all got to admit there is still restraints and walls we can't cross cause it's a video game but ME1 did have more of the feeling and "actual" of the freedom of being YOUR OWN Shepard and not being some Cerberus shepard. Even though you weren't you are still YOUR shepard. We got to admit ME2 did feel a bit "uncomfortable" and "tight fitting" to say the least.

But yes to all: ME2 is a great game and imporved on almost everything, but I don't want to give credit for things and make a huge post so ME2....IS SWEET! haha

(don't want to go into detail....... I'm at work.......too busy)

[OasisForever1991]

Orkboy wrote...

DarthCaine wrote...

The only reason why someone thinks ME1 is more emotional is nostalgia. It's the same reason why people say BG is the best RPG ever

That FEELING is just nostalgia. It's the same reason no RPG can match my KOTOR FEELING

Sorry but I have to comment on this...

I agree with the OP about the overall feeling of the game, but it's not nostalgia.
 
How can it be nostalgia when I played ME1 nonstop for 2 weeks immediately prior to playing ME2?
How can it be nostalgia when I left ME2 after my second playthrough to go back to ME1 because it was a much richer experiance?



Disregarding the game mechanics and which was best of the 2 games, ME2s story structure is very poor compaired to ME1.

ME1 had a sense of the mystery and fear of the unknown about it, it was full of -  What will I find? What is Saren  upto?  ME2 is just a boring - Here's what you have to do, now do it.

ME1 contains that great sense of awe that truley awsome RPGs tend to have and I think it's down to the fact that the story flows from location to location with purpose and drama, whereas ME2 come across as being disjointed and episodic.

ME1 character recruitment was almost organic, even though we knew who they were in advance thanks to Biowares pre-release info, stumbling upon the team mates as we were doing other missions added to the overall experiance.

ME2 having so many  - Go here for person A - and - Go there and get person B - missions, hurt the game and made it seem much more disjointed and formulaic than it could have been. 

The simple act of ditching the dossier system and merging a few the recruitment missions into each other, then having them placed for you to stumble across as you went about doing something else, would have done wonders for the feel of the game?  The way they introduced Legion was a perfect example of this, and for me, the mystery of Legion should have been woven more into the rest of the game. 

Having Legion popup during crucial parts of other missions to help Shepard from a distance would have added drama and mystery.  - Who sent it?  Why is it helping me?  Why does it have N7 armour? 

Also, Instead of the upgrade conversation trees, Bioware could have used the need to upgrade the Normandy as a means to furthur the plot and add a sense of drama. 

Something like - 

TIM speaking with you after he gives you the Normandy and telling you that although it's the most advanced ship ever built, the Normandy isn't not up to the job of taking on the collectors. However, his sources have informed him of of an illegal weapons lab on Omega that has been working on a fancy weapon doodad that you could "borrow". 

When you get there you find the Garrus mission as it currently stands in ME2 but the area he's holed up in is the weapons lab TIM mentioned.

Making your way to him, you find out that the mercs are just using the frontal assaut to distract Garrus from realising that they've hired an assassin to kill Garrus.

The assassin turns out to be Thane, which gives the game drama and adds an added dilema.
 
- Do you help Thane? Do you help Garrus? Or is there a way to recruit them both?

As for the doodad...

- Will you escape with it?  Will you have to leave it behind?  Or will the mercs destroy it before you get a chance to  run off with it?


Now, i'm not a writer and the idea obviously would need planning out propperly, but who can say that something like that wouldn't have been more engrosing than ME2s - Go here and get person  - Go there and get person B -  missions?



ME2 whilst a good game, to me just feels flung together at the last moment.  Almost as if one day an EA exec asked - "So, hows Mass Effect 2 comming along, you must be nearly finished by now?"  and Bioware thinking - "Oh crap, we haven't started it yet, we were too busy playing Gears of War.  We better think of something quick."

I agree completely. I don't this "nostalgia" in the Mass Effect universe. The "unknown" feeling of ME1 is not in ME2. Although I did feel lit a little bit on the side mission where we went to that abandoned research vessel and the VI or AI was taking over and killed the crew, that felt a little better but for the main story the jury is out on that one. I hate to kill it by saying this but there was no "MAGIC" invovled in ME2's stroy or characters. They just felt so "in place" and the story felt very..very much like "look at the journal and let's go" there is no one mission that gives the magic touch of being on Feros and helping people and really feeling the distinct planet of which it is.

I agree.

[kmcd5722]

 i don't really want to repeat myself, but i feel pretty much the same way.  this is what i mean.  click here

[OasisForever1991]

kmcd5722 wrote...

 i don't really want to repeat myself, but i feel pretty much the same way.  this is what i mean.  click here

You didn't have too, I've read your thread atleast 5 times haha I could not agree more.

[rabbitchannel]

I agree with the OP but the reason I don't usually voice it is that it's such a hard argument to make. You don't really have proof nor can you back it up with reasoning. It's so subjective and you either know what is being referred to or not.

[InvaderErl]

Mass Effect 1 > 2 is mainly fueled by nostalgia.

Mass Effect 1 only TALKED about things. They told us the Salarians are short-lived and uppity on account of it, but we didn't see it, they told us that the Asari Pureblood are looked down upon but we didn't see it. They told us the Quarians are looked down upon but we didn't see it.

Mass Effect 1 was all about drawing attention to itself with "ISN'T THIS COOL" style introductions to races and places but none of it had any depth.

2 just relied on coolness through execution.

As for the locations I think anyone that says that ANY of the locations in 1 were better realized than in 2 are just being silly. Omega > Citadel, Illium > Noveria, Horizon > Feros, etc.

Modifié par InvaderErl, 12 mars 2010 - 01:54 .

[TJSolo]

InvaderErl wrote...

Mass Effect 1 > 2 is mainly fueled by nostalgia.

Mass Effect 1 only TALKED about things. They told us the Salarians are short-lived and uppity on account of it, but we didn't see it, they told us that the Asari Pureblood are looked down upon but we didn't see it. They told us the Quarians are looked down upon but we didn't see it.

As for the locations I think anyone that says that ANY of the locations in 1 were better realized than in 2 are just being silly. Omega > Citadel, Illium > Noveria, Horizon > Feros, etc.

Nostalgia for people that have just recently played or replayed the game to create new imports, sure.

ME2 still talks about things without showing them. The whole Turian fleet and short lived Salarians are still talk.

You're calling missions/hubs from ME1 less then hubs in ME2. Noveria and Feroes have multiple paths to accomplish the hub side of them and their missions are twice as long as ME2 missions.
The Citadel in ME2 was 4 floor super condensed mini-mall.

[InvaderErl]

TJSolo wrote...


Nostalgia for people that have just recently played or replayed the game to create new imports, sure.

ME2 still talks about things without showing them. The whole Turian fleet and short lived Salarians are still talk.

You're calling missions/hubs from ME1 less then hubs in ME2. Noveria and Feroes have multiple paths to accomplish the hub side of them and their missions are twice as long as ME2 missions.
The Citadel in ME2 was 4 floor super condensed mini-mall.

Yes, Yes I am.

Mordin is clearly rushed and excited. He is running a mile a minute because he's trying to get so much done on such a short life span.

On Illium we see the pureblood's are lesser Asari line of thinking in action.

I didn't mention the Turian fleet. I don't think 2 even mentions the Turian fleet.

Feros has multiple paths?

You HAVE to go to Exogeni, you HAVE to come back. You HAVE to go in and kill the Thorian. What multiple paths are you talking about? The gas grenade thing. You still HAVE to fight the colonist and hit them with said grenades, its not that different of a path.

As for the Noveria, the only other path it allows you to completion is you want to skip all of that dialogue and game content and just get to the shooting. Otherwise, its practically the same paths but letting you make different decisions on how you want to complete the quest.

Sort of like what 2 does with its loyalty missions.

And the Citadel in 2 was clearly not a major location. On top of that, the Citadel in 1 is much smaller than you think, they just made you run across vast empty distances to get to the few hotspots.

As for longer mission times, 2 gives you more hours of original content = fact.

Modifié par InvaderErl, 12 mars 2010 - 02:22 .

[TJSolo]

InvaderErl wrote...

TJSolo wrote...


Nostalgia for people that have just recently played or replayed the game to create new imports, sure.

ME2 still talks about things without showing them. The whole Turian fleet and short lived Salarians are still talk.

You're calling missions/hubs from ME1 less then hubs in ME2. Noveria and Feroes have multiple paths to accomplish the hub side of them and their missions are twice as long as ME2 missions.
The Citadel in ME2 was 4 floor super condensed mini-mall.

Yes, Yes I am.

Mordin is clearly rushed and excited, especially as how he is near the end of his life and is trying to get **** done.

Throughout a lot of Illium we see the pureblood's are lesser Asari line of thinking in action.

I didn't mention the Turian fleet. I don't think 2 even mentions the Turian fleet.

Feros has multiple paths?

You HAVE to go to Exogeni, you HAVE to come back. You HAVE to go in and kill the Thorian. What multiple paths are you talking about? The gas grenade thing. You still HAVE to fight the colonist and hit them with said grenades, its not that different of a path.

As for the Noveria, the only other path it allows you to completion is you want to skip all of that dialogue and game content and just get to the shooting. Otherwise, its practically the same paths but letting you make different decisions on how you want to complete the quest.

Sort of like what 2 does with its loyalty missions.

And the Citadel in 2 was clearly not a major location. On top of that, the Citadel in 1 is much smaller than you think, they just made you run across vast empty distances to get to the few hotspots.

As for longer mission times, 2 gives you more hours of original content = fact.

Then you are wrong on the nostalgia part for people that have recently played ME1 either first play throughs or replays.

All the Salarian short life thing is still talk. Just like how Captain Kirrahe talked on Virmire and had a passion/rush to get things done.
Pureblood asari bigotry was talked about by one couple on Illium with all of 3 different lines. You can get the same idea from talking to Liara in ME1 who is a pureblood asari.
Talk of the Turian fleet is brought up during newscasts on the Citadel and I think Anderson talks about some of the aftermath when you talk to him.

Yes multiple paths and options which ME2 doesn't even offer. Please cite how many multiple paths you have to accomplish a goal within ME2 story and loyalty missions. An option on how to go about a mission doesn't even come up. The end of the missions give you some options but ME1 also has end mission decisions to make.

Also, you dont HAVE to use grenades on them if you arent going to save them.

Creating space that is on the Citadel is used to show the scale.
Every hub in ME1 could be super condensed and have points of interests all on top of each other just like ME2.
The size of the Citadel in ME2 is overly convenient and bite sized for casual consumption.

I am not sure about you but when I play ME1 and look around the Citadel; I actually want to see more of it not see less like in ME2.
All of the hubs in ME2 make me want to see a lot more than what is offered.
Then again my tastes in games tend to be on the side of exploration more so then linearity.

[InvaderErl]

TJSolo wrote...
Then you are wrong on the nostalgia part for people that have recently played ME1 either first play throughs or replays.

All the Salarian short life thing is still talk. Just like how Captain Kirrahe talked on Virmire and had a passion/rush to get things done.

Passion somewhow equates to short Salarian life span? In fact he wanted to WAIT for reinforcements until he found out there weren't any coming.

Mordin several times mentions he wants to spend his last years doing good work. There's a line where Mordin says something like, "Wanted to spend last decade helping people," it really hits home that he's painfully aware of how little time he has.

TJSolo wrote
Pureblood asari bigotry was talked about by one couple on Illium with all of 3 different lines. You can get the same idea from talking to Liara in ME1 who is a pureblood asari.

Except Liara is just telling you about it. 2 is actually showing how that can become divisive in a friendship or how in some cases it even can turn into a very blatant form of racism. 1 tells, 2 shows.

TJSolo wrote
Talk of the Turian fleet is brought up during newscasts on the Citadel and I think Anderson talks about some of the aftermath when you talk to him.

I have to admit to never having heard that before.

TJSolo wrote
Yes multiple paths and options which ME2 doesn't even offer. Please cite how many multiple paths you have to accomplish a goal within ME2 story and loyalty missions. An option on how to go about a mission doesn't even come up. The end of the missions give you some options but ME1 also has end mission decisions to make.

You are saying multiple paths as if they actually change the mission. They don't. Guess what, instead of hitting the right trigger button on the colonist you get to hit the grenade button instead. MULTIPLE PATHS!

Everything else, siding with Exo-Geni over the colonist, siding with Anolais over Gianna is as important as whether or not you help Jack get over her past, or whether or not Tali is exiled from the Migrant Fleet.

I think Noveria is the ONLY time you get an oppurtunity to take a clear and different path and even then you are only SKIPPING the content completely.

TJSolo wrote
Also, you dont HAVE to use grenades on them if you arent going to save them.

Instead you get to hit the right trigger, yes I know.

Creating space that is on the Citadel is used to show the scale.
Every hub in ME1 could be super condensed and have points of interests all on top of each other just like ME2.
The size of the Citadel in ME2 is overly convenient and bite sized for casual consumption.

Its also there to help pad the game.

Edit: Also, there's nothing to explore. They're just more blank areas. There's almost no characters talking, nothing to interact with and nothing to do.

You want good exploration? Fallout 3.

Even those 3 floors (+ the apartment blocks) feel more alive than what we saw in 1.

Modifié par InvaderErl, 12 mars 2010 - 02:49 .

[KotOREffecT]

whew.... The war of ME 1 against ME 2 is starting to heat up.. Very interesting posts InvaderERL and TJSolo... You two are fighting to the death!

[InvaderErl]

*ruffles through cheetos bag.



We are?

[TJSolo]

InvaderErl wrote...

Passion somewhow equates to short Salarian life span? In fact he wanted to WAIT for reinforcements until he found out there weren't any coming.

Mordin several times mentions he wants to spend his last years doing good work. There's a line where Mordin says something like, "Wanted to spend last decade helping people," it really hits home that he's painfully aware of how little time he has.

Yes the fact he wanted to wait and confliction that they have short lifespans. Gave impact to how willing they are to hold the line.

You are saying multiple paths as if they actually change the mission. They don't. Guess what, instead of hitting the right trigger button on the colonist you get to hit the grenade button instead. MULTIPLE PATHS!

Everything else, siding with Exo-Geni over the colonist, siding with Anolais over Gianna is as important as whether or not you help Jack get over her past, or whether or not Tali is exiled from the Migrant Fleet.

I think Noveria is the ONLY time you get an oppurtunity to take a clear and different path and even then you are only SKIPPING the content completely.

Tali and Jack are options at the end of the missions not during. Going into a ME2 mission is the same path leading up to the same result and then at the end an opportunity to make an choice.
Trying to belittle or make the paths in ME1 seem less then what they are doesn't change the fact that the options to change how you can reach the end of some missions are there.

Its also there to help pad the game.

Edit: Also, there's nothing to explore. They're just more blank areas. There's almost no characters talking, nothing to interact with and nothing to do.

You want good exploration? Fallout 3.

Even those 3 floors (+ the apartment blocks) feel more alive than what we saw in 1.

Yes there are mechanics in place to pad the length of games.
The corridors in the Citadel and the distance between on point of interest helped pad the game but also give the Citadel a sense of scale.
The length of ME2 was padded although not from scale but from mineral scanning. Every step you are saved from walking in the Citadel is paid back to you 2 fold via needing to gather minerals for upgrades and being able to complete the game with maximum survival.

The ME2 Citadel feels more cramped then alive to me, with so many overlapping conversations starting and not being able to finish if you don't stop immediately to listen to it.
It didn't feel alive it felt conveniently compact.

Exploring FO3, ME1, KOTOR, Oblivion, GTA and DAO.
DAO and Kotor are more modular then free roaming but still everything was not place directly on a linear path.
FO3 just running all over Washington trying to get find the random encounters and easter eggs.
GTA is a game I can just put in and enjoy doing random things for about 60mins.
Oblivion is well Oblivion. Fun when I feel like stalking a NPC or picking herbs.

[InvaderErl]

TJSolo wrote...

Yes the fact he wanted to wait and confliction that they have short lifespans. Gave impact to how willing they are to hold the line.

I think you're reaching here. The sense of desperation on the part of the Salarians in that scene came from the fact that they were facing overwhelming odds in a head-on battle even though they were only an infiltration unit, not that they don't live far past 40.

TJSolo wrote...
Tali and Jack are options at the end of the missions not during. Going into a ME2 mission is the same path leading up to the same result and then at the end an opportunity to make an choice.
Trying to belittle or make the paths in ME1 seem less then what they are doesn't change the fact that the options to change how you can reach the end of some missions are there.

I'm not belittling anything. The only change you can affect on Feros as far as going about how you complete the quest is whether you shoot them or throw grenades at them. That is it. There's no new dialogues, there's no enemies, quests, whatever - it is completely the same save for what attack button you hit.

Fai Dan (sp?) still shoots himself and says the same thing whether or not you've saved every single person, you can still tell the Thorian to let the Colonist go even IF every colonist is dead.  The change is illusory and only impacts anything AFTER the quest is over.

Noveria's other path is to avoid it altogether, thereby missing on game content - you don't get a new path, you just skip straight to the shooting part. Aside from these two occurances and I feel that they are hardly even worth noting given their nature, ME1 has no more in-quest freedom about how you complete it than 2.

TJSolo wrote...
Yes there are mechanics in place to pad the length of games.
The corridors in the Citadel and the distance between on point of interest helped pad the game but also give the Citadel a sense of scale.
The length of ME2 was padded although not from scale but from mineral scanning. Every step you are saved from walking in the Citadel is paid back to you 2 fold via needing to gather minerals for upgrades and being able to complete the game with maximum survival.

You're turning a complaint about the size of the Citadel in 1 to an attack on the mining system in 2. I never said 2 didn't have a measure of padding. Two wrongs don't make a right to call on that old adage.

And I agree that the mining game sucked.

And the rest of ME1's padding easily outweighs whatever is occured by the mining game (which again sucks).

TJSolo wrote...
The ME2 Citadel feels more cramped then alive to me, with so many overlapping conversations starting and not being able to finish if you don't stop immediately to listen to it.

See, I LIKE that feeling. That the Citadel wasn't just designed for me to go "Wow, this place sure is big and amazing". I prefer a dozen different conversations going on at once because that's how real cities are.

[Andorfiend]

Orkboy wrote...

ME1 had a sense of the mystery and fear of the unknown about it, it was full of -  What will I find? What is Saren  upto?  ME2 is just a boring - Here's what you have to do, now do it.

There. Right there. You just nailed it. The difference between ME 1 and ME 2. Between a great game and a good one.

In ME 1 you were in charge. More than in charge, you had a vision of what needed to be done and you went and did it even with the whole universe against you. While you (mostly) worked for the council and they were your nominal superiors they didn't tell you what do to or how to do it. They just presented a problem, a few lines of approach, and cut you loose. You were a god-damned grownup and didn't need the frickin' training wheels because you're Commander Freaking Shepard the first Human Spectre.

In ME 2 you're the Illusive Man's errand boy. He tells you what to do, how to do it, and who to do it with. And you have to be a good little boy and play along or TIM will take his toys and go home and you don't have any other friends boo hoo hoo hoo. TIMs on the phone? You gotta talk to him and even Joker won't listen when you try to do something else. Things are on rails here boy and you play by our rules so just hold on to mommy's apron strings and everythng will be fine.

Thank you. You just crystallized everything that seemed off about ME 2 compared to ME 1 for me.

[InvaderErl]

Andorfiend wrote...

Orkboy wrote...

ME1 had a sense of the mystery and fear of the unknown about it, it was full of -  What will I find? What is Saren  upto?  ME2 is just a boring - Here's what you have to do, now do it.

There. Right there. You just nailed it. The difference between ME 1 and ME 2. Between a great game and a good one.

In ME 1 you were in charge. More than in charge, you had a vision of what needed to be done and you went and did it even with the whole universe against you. While you (mostly) worked for the council and they were your nominal superiors they didn't tell you what do to or how to do it. They just presented a problem, a few lines of approach, and cut you loose. You were a god-damned grownup and didn't need the frickin' training wheels because you're Commander Freaking Shepard the first Human Spectre.

In ME 2 you're the Illusive Man's errand boy. He tells you what to do, how to do it, and who to do it with. And you have to be a good little boy and play along or TIM will take his toys and go home and you don't have any other friends boo hoo hoo hoo. TIMs on the phone? You gotta talk to him and even Joker won't listen when you try to do something else. Things are on rails here boy and you play by our rules so just hold on to mommy's apron strings and everythng will be fine.

Thank you. You just crystallized everything that seemed off about ME 2 compared to ME 1 for me.

Talk about rose-tinted glasses here.

Silly silly nostalgia kicking in.

There are only two missions you need to do them when you get them and that is Horizon and the Collector Ship and they are presented as being time sensitive so it makes sense that you zip off to fly them.

Aside from that the Illusive Man wields no more control than the Council did over you.

Modifié par InvaderErl, 12 mars 2010 - 05:16 .

[TJSolo]

You are still attempting to belittle the quality of the paths in ME1. The quality is not the question; some are big leaps and cut down time while others are less noticeable. ME2 lacks any sort of large or small path decision it is all straight ahead action with little need to concern yourself of thinking maybe there was a different way to get to point A from B.



"See, I LIKE that feeling. That the Citadel wasn't just designed for me to go "Wow, this place sure is big and amazing". I prefer a dozen different conversations going on at once because that's how real cities are."



To put things shorter.

That is the difference. I would rather have a reasonably expansive area with spread out points of interests without so much overlap and odd convenience.

The conversations overlap in a way that they cut each other over frequently. It really annoyed me when I lost the one squad interaction on the Citadel because some other conversation(a few steps away) started before I stopped to listen.



The crowdedness reflects a real city but the convenient compactness does not.

ME1 the Citadel still had crowded areas accompanied with a better spreading points of interests.



The proposed scale of hubs are better represented in 1 for me.

Reading the description of Omega and doing quests there really make me think how convenient that the one apartment I need is the only apartment that is outside of the quarantine zone.

Hubs in ME2 are ones of odd over-convenience.

[TJSolo]

InvaderErl wrote...

Andorfiend wrote...

Orkboy wrote...

ME1 had a sense of the mystery and fear of the unknown about it, it was full of -  What will I find? What is Saren  upto?  ME2 is just a boring - Here's what you have to do, now do it.

There. Right there. You just nailed it. The difference between ME 1 and ME 2. Between a great game and a good one.

In ME 1 you were in charge. More than in charge, you had a vision of what needed to be done and you went and did it even with the whole universe against you. While you (mostly) worked for the council and they were your nominal superiors they didn't tell you what do to or how to do it. They just presented a problem, a few lines of approach, and cut you loose. You were a god-damned grownup and didn't need the frickin' training wheels because you're Commander Freaking Shepard the first Human Spectre.

In ME 2 you're the Illusive Man's errand boy. He tells you what to do, how to do it, and who to do it with. And you have to be a good little boy and play along or TIM will take his toys and go home and you don't have any other friends boo hoo hoo hoo. TIMs on the phone? You gotta talk to him and even Joker won't listen when you try to do something else. Things are on rails here boy and you play by our rules so just hold on to mommy's apron strings and everythng will be fine.

Thank you. You just crystallized everything that seemed off about ME 2 compared to ME 1 for me.

Talk about rose-tinted glasses here.

Silly silly nostalgia kicking in.

There are only two missions you need to do them when you get them and that is Horizon and the Collector Ship and they are presented as being time sensitive so it makes sense that you zip off to fly them.

Aside from that the Illusive Man wields no more control than the Council did over you.

No it is not nostalgia or what ever label you try and put on it.
There is a clear difference between the Council telling you about Virmire and still having control over where the Normandy goes.
VS.
Kelli saying TIM wants to talk to you and not being able to do anything with the Normandy other than talk to TIM and then being ported to whatever mission he wants to send you on.

[Andorfiend]

InvaderErl wrote...

Talk about rose-tinted glasses here.

Silly silly nostalgia kicking in.

There are only two missions you need to do them when you get them and that is Horizon and the Collector Ship and they are presented as being time sensitive so it makes sense that you zip off to fly them.

Aside from that the Illusive Man wields no more control than the Council did over you.

Nostalgia. I do not think this word means what you think it means. As it happens I only bought ME 1 a few months before ME 2 came out. I finished my fisrt ME 2 playthrough and went right back through ME 1 to make a new import and then played ME 2 again.

ME 2 was less annoying the second time through, but still pales compared to ME 1 as a game. Is the combat better in ME 2? Yep. Graphics better? Much. They really nailed the graphics in ME 2, that observation window in the wards where you can look back at the Presidium and the Council tower? I could just stand there and look for hours.

But pretty pictures and better shooting do not make up for the hollow feeling of the game.

Experiences sperated by hours are not subject to nostalgia. I am not nostalgic for ME1, I'm nostalgic for Master of Magic.

And if TIM wasn't controlling me why the hell couldn't I look around this ship I was supposedly the Captain of? If I had actually been on the N2 and EDI really had refused me access to the CARGO BAYS I would have gotten some scuttleing charges and blown the damn AI out of my ship. After shooting Miranda through the head. Then I would have turned all my flight logs over to the Alliance so they could send in a Dreadnought or two to clean up TIMs little base.

In ME 1 I occasionally felt irked that I couldn't make quite the dialogue choice I wanted to make, but I never felt like Shepard wasn't my character because he was never (or very rarely) prevented from doing what I wanted him to do. In ME 2 I was frequently left feeling like I had my control taken away from me. Shepard didn't act like my character, he didn't act like Shepard, he acted like TIMs ****. It was very, very aggravating.

ME 2 was full of that kind of crap. Maybe you didn't notice it, but I sure as hell did and it wasn't nostalgia talking either. Perhaps you might try reading and comprehending what so many people are saying rather than assuming we miss our Atari 1800s?

[InvaderErl]

TJSolo wrote...

You are still attempting to belittle the quality of the paths in ME1. The quality is not the question; some are big leaps and cut down time while others are less noticeable. ME2 lacks any sort of large or small path decision it is all straight ahead action with little need to concern yourself of thinking maybe there was a different way to get to point A from B.

I am pointing out that these choices in paths that your exhalting as changing the path of the quest, did no such thing. And they didn't, and those are the only 2 that I can think of.

TJSolo wrote...

To put things shorter.
That is the difference. I would rather have a reasonably expansive area with spread out points of interests without so much overlap and odd convenience.
The conversations overlap in a way that they cut each other over frequently. It really annoyed me when I lost the one squad interaction on the Citadel because some other conversation(a few steps away) started before I stopped to listen.

The crowdedness reflects a real city but the convenient compactness does not.
ME1 the Citadel still had crowded areas accompanied with a better spreading points of interests.

The proposed scale of hubs are better represented in 1 for me.
Reading the description of Omega and doing quests there really make me think how convenient that the one apartment I need is the only apartment that is outside of the quarantine zone.
Hubs in ME2 are ones of odd over-convenience.

See you seem to think its necessary for an area to be large simply for the sake of being large. I don't. The Presidium feels stale and dull to me. There's no flow, no movement and no pulse. There's a line about the bar on the Presidium being boring and that's how the entire station feels to me.

ME2 hubs use vehicles to get you to the hotspots, how is that less believable than the layout of the Citadel in 1.

Modifié par InvaderErl, 12 mars 2010 - 05:43 .

[InvaderErl]

Andorfiend wrote...

Nostalgia. I do not think this word means what you think it means. As it happens I only bought ME 1 a few months before ME 2 came out. I finished my fisrt ME 2 playthrough and went right back through ME 1 to make a new import and then played ME 2 again.

Then I will retract that statement. My mistake.

Andorfiend wrote...
And if TIM wasn't controlling me why the hell couldn't I look around this ship I was supposedly the Captain of? If I had actually been on the N2 and EDI really had refused me access to the CARGO BAYS I would have gotten some scuttleing charges and blown the damn AI out of my ship. After shooting Miranda through the head. Then I would have turned all my flight logs over to the Alliance so they could send in a Dreadnought or two to clean up TIMs little base.

Yes, because not being able to enter an empty room is a sign that the Illusive Man rules over you.

And now you're complaining that a scripted game does not give you EVERY choice you can imagine. If you want total range of freedom play a pencil and paper game.

As for the Alliance/Citadel, why would they be suddenly ready to breach the Terminus systems when the entire climax of 1 was caused by their unwillingness to enter said space. And do you think Cerberus is going to be sitting by and saying "Drat!"

Lastly, why would you shoot Miranda. By that point she sides with Shepard over Illusive Man.

Andorfiend wrote...
In ME 1 I occasionally felt irked that I couldn't make quite the dialogue choice I wanted to make, but I never felt like Shepard wasn't my character because he was never (or very rarely) prevented from doing what I wanted him to do. In ME 2 I was frequently left feeling like I had my control taken away from me. Shepard didn't act like my character, he didn't act like Shepard, he acted like TIMs ****. It was very, very aggravating.

I don't know what you're talking about because I told Illusive Man to tread carefully after the Collector Ship and I told him to go **** himself after the suicide mission.

Other than that Shep is forced to work with him out of necessity. There are plenty of options reinforcing this, and I don't know why you seemed to have not seen them but I certainly did. 

Modifié par InvaderErl, 12 mars 2010 - 05:46 .