290 réponses à ce sujet

[CmdrFenix83]

The Angry One wrote...

Azint wrote...

Am I the only one who thought of the Sunry trial in KOTOR?

I did too, and it has similar warped morals.
Granted, this isn't as outright horrible as that one.
In this case, you can reason that you need Tali and the Quarians ignorant of the truth at least until the Reapers are defeated.
In the KOTOR trial, you're outright supposed to get a murderer off free with lies, intimidation and evidence witholding just because he's a Republic agent and the victim was a Sith agent (the murder not being done for any cause to benefit the Republic, and the agent having no information that would warrant absolving him)

This is just wrong.  All you have to do is present certain evidence that helps your case.  You go up and volunteer to be his arbiter.  It is your JOB to defend your client, regardless of your feelings on the matter.  At no point do you have to lie, bribe, or Force Persuade in order to win.  You're also not doing this because he's a Republic agent, you're doing it because a friend on your team is friends with him.  If you don't want to defend him, then simply don't do it, or go ahead and go against your own job and hand in the recording from the Republic Embassy and get him convicted if you want.

The only difference here is that you're forced to being her advocate.  That's it.  The point is the same.  You represent her, your job is to act in the manner she wishes.

[The Angry One]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

This is just wrong.  All you have to do is present certain evidence that helps your case.  You go up and volunteer to be his arbiter.  It is your JOB to defend your client, regardless of your feelings on the matter.  At no point do you have to lie, bribe, or Force Persuade in order to win.  You're also not doing this because he's a Republic agent, you're doing it because a friend on your team is friends with him.  If you don't want to defend him, then simply don't do it, or go ahead and go against your own job and hand in the recording from the Republic Embassy and get him convicted if you want.

You miss the point that you get light side points for getting a murderer off with lies and intimidation.
Thus indicating it's the "right" thing to do, thus warped morals.

The only difference here is that you're forced to being her advocate.  That's it.  The point is the same.  You represent her, your job is to act in the manner she wishes.

And maybe someone loyal to Tali would do that, but don't tell me it's the paragon thing to do.
You're protecting the name of a war criminal because of the bias of his daughter.

[CmdrFenix83]

Schroing wrote...

I'm getting so sick of this thread. Morality is subjective, shut the **** up already.

Only to an extent.  You can justify some things, but you personally have come in here and claimed that Cerberus taking over the galaxy would be morally 'right'.  I don't think you have a leg to stand on.

[Zulu_DFA]

DuffyMJ wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

DuffyMJ wrote...
YES they do.  The "carte blanche" idea has been disproven numerous times by the natural sciences which have observed moral decision making in everything from feral children and even in dogs and other animals.  Empathy is hard wired into the brain from birth. 

Empathy, not "good" or "bad". It's instinct, not decision making.

You've got to be kidding me.  Have you not felt empathy in your life?  Empathy is the individual's capacity to simulate the BAD circumstances of another and simulate their state of mind.  Like when you see a kid get punched in the face, you feel BAD.  Or when you see an olympian defy odds and win and celebrate with his family, you feel GOOD with him. 

Jesus, it's like you can't even agree with me on what *reality* is.

Yes, it's an interesting question. Hard to answer. Obviously, if you mean that the answer is "reality is what I see with my eyes & such", I won't agree with you.

Ancient Greeks thought that compassion is one of the lowest and meanest feelings, because it is basically fear, the fear for your own hide, when you see something ugly happening to someone else.

Also, the Olympics champion may feel good, and you may feel good with him and for him all you want. It doesn't mean that the event of winning the gold medal by Mr. X is "good". First, because, Mr. Y, who got silver may think quite the opposite. An, secondly, in a hundred years, noone's going to care.

That's why "good" and "bad" are subjective and relative. Even on the galactic scale.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 11 mars 2010 - 09:56 .

[DuffyMJ]

The Angry One wrote...

DuffyMJ wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

DuffyMJ wrote...

It's not ridiculous.  Defense never presents evidence without fully anticipating its consequences on the client.  There are many cases in the U.S. where individuals were prosecuted for unknowingly aiding in treasonous or even much lesser offenses.  Just off the top of my head, several people -- including the first woman in American history to be executed -- were hung for providing lodging and treating the wounds of John Wilkes Booth in Virginia. 

Too bad we're discussing Quarian law here, and Tali OUTRIGHT SAYS the evidence will clear her.

Too bad Tali is an engineer and not a lawyer...

Do you just believe NPC's unquestionably?  Like when Miranda says Samara is a great choice for a fireteam leader or that she herself is totally ready to be the biotic bubble person, do you totally 100% believe her too...?

Okay let's see.

Tali thinks the evidence will clear her.
Shepard thinks the evidence will clear her.
The evidence does, in fact, clear her.

I am Shepard in my game.  I do not think it will clear her ** of any future prosecution as I have fruitlessly told you again and again and again and again...**  I also did not clear her with the evidence in my game.  I also did not stick around long enough or play Mass Effect 3 or whatever to the point where I would find out whether or not Tali is being prosecuted again for a lesser offense by her government.  I do not know Quarian law, and whether such a thing would fall under their equivalent of "double jeopardy" as it would in my home state.  I will not take the risk. 

[CmdrFenix83]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Schroing wrote...

DuffyMJ wrote...

Schroing wrote...

I'm getting so sick of this thread. Morality is subjective, shut the **** up already.

Sure, some morals are, but a lot of them are pretty clear cut and universally agreed upon

That doesn't matter. They're still subjective.
If a billion people believe one thing and one person believes something contrary to that, that doesn't make him wrong. It doesn't make the billion wrong, either. Neither of them are wrong. They -can't- be wrong. It's philosophically impossible for either of them to be wrong.
The same applies here.

Some people simply can't get it that "good" and "bad" don't exist in the Nature.

Technically, nothing created by us(electricity, plumbing, internet, etc) exsists in nature either.  Does that mean they should be ignored or rationalized away too?

[Big Yam]

But what if, despite all this, the right choice is to hand over the evidence of Tali's father's work?

The moral choice is to keep the info hidden, because it will ultimately strengthen the quarians defenses against the greater geth threat. The only reasons it's such a big deal is that the liberals in the fleet don't have a grasp on the reality of maintaining an adequate military, much like in real life.



lol

[CmdrFenix83]

The Angry One wrote...

The evidence clears her name.
Thus it is Shepard's duty as Tali's advocate to present evidence that proves her innocence.

Except this is flat out wrong.  Your job as her advocate, is to voice *her* desires.  If she wants to accept exile to prevent her father's name being ruined, then it's your *job* to do as she requests.  Exactly as it was in the Sunry case.

[The Angry One]

DuffyMJ wrote...

I am Shepard in my game.  I do not think it will clear her ** of any future prosecution as I have fruitlessly told you again and again and again and again...**  I also did not clear her with the evidence in my game.  I also did not stick around long enough or play Mass Effect 3 or whatever to the point where I would find out whether or not Tali is being prosecuted again for a lesser offense by her government.  I do not know Quarian law, and whether such a thing would fall under their equivalent of "double jeopardy" as it would in my home state.  I will not take the risk. 

The information given to you in the game up to that point indicates that the evidence will clear Tali.
If you refuse to believe that, I don't care. Don't try to debate on the basis that you're covering your ears and going "la la la".

[The Angry One]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

The evidence clears her name.
Thus it is Shepard's duty as Tali's advocate to present evidence that proves her innocence.

Except this is flat out wrong.  Your job as her advocate, is to voice *her* desires.  If she wants to accept exile to prevent her father's name being ruined, then it's your *job* to do as she requests.  Exactly as it was in the Sunry case.

And again, the paragon way should not be to follow the desires of someone wanting to protect a war criminal to the detriment of an entire society. Job or not. I'm talking about what's right.

[DuffyMJ]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

DuffyMJ wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

DuffyMJ wrote...
YES they do.  The "carte blanche" idea has been disproven numerous times by the natural sciences which have observed moral decision making in everything from feral children and even in dogs and other animals.  Empathy is hard wired into the brain from birth. 

Empathy, not "good" or "bad". It's instinct, not decision making.

You've got to be kidding me.  Have you not felt empathy in your life?  Empathy is the individual's capacity to simulate the BAD circumstances of another and simulate their state of mind.  Like when you see a kid get punched in the face, you feel BAD.  Or when you see an olympian defy odds and win and celebrate with his family, you feel GOOD with him. 

Jesus, it's like you can't even agree with me on what *reality* is.

Yes, it's an interesting question. Hard to answer. Obviously, if you mean that the answer is "reality is what I see with my eyes & such", I won't agree with you.

Ancient Greeks thought that compassion is one of the lowest and meanest feelings, because it is basically fear, the fear for your own hide, when you see something ugly happening tosomeone else.

Also the lympics champion may feel good, and you may feel good with him and for him all you want. It doesn't mean that the event of winning the gold medal by Mr. X is "good". First, because, Mr. Y, who got silver may think quite the opposite. An, secondly, in a hundred years, noone's going to care.

That's why "good" and "bad" are subjective and relative. Even on the galactic scale.

That sounds more like what Plato and his followers specificially felt -- and with good reason as he was reacting after watching his mentor Socrates get executed by the knee jerk reaction of a mass consensus as the Athenian justice system was very democratic (odeons full of jurors).  Plato felt ALL ART was in fact suspect because of the emphatic emotions it could create, something that probably comes from the effects of propoganda, fancy rhetoric, etc. in getting the people to bring down socrates.   But Platonic thinking itself is likewise based on empathy and compassion!  Plato wrote his criticism of poetics based on his own emphatic reaction to events he witnessed, he was not stone cold and stoic in his reasoning.  Not to mention, his writing in and of itself is fictional dialog -- art -- that simulates and illicits fake reaction.

I specifiy Plato to show you that this was not universal among Greeks, Aristotle would certainly have disagreed with that assertion, he saw compassion illicited by poetry (tragedies for instance since you mentioned compassion for others' plights) as absolutely vital as a conductor for learning and the exchange of ideas.  Teaching the necessity to be wary of hubris was a 'lesson' that came from the tragedy of oedipus, for instance.  I really don't think it's fair at all to brand the society that literally invented the great tragedy plays as a society that felt compassion to be "weak" it's just not true!

Modifié par DuffyMJ, 11 mars 2010 - 10:03 .

[JeanLuc761]

The Angry One wrote...
The information given to you in the game up to that point indicates that the evidence will clear Tali.
If you refuse to believe that, I don't care. Don't try to debate on the basis that you're covering your ears and going "la la la".

The information given to you also indicates that Tali's father will be ruined and, by association, so will she.  The intent of the mission is to defend her as a friend; handing over the evidence is the biggest backstab anyone could do.

As Tali says, you're speaking on her behalf, it's her wishes that we're supposed to be honoring.

[Zulu_DFA]

DuffyMJ wrote...

 the fact that obama ended the torturing and we now use the army field interrogation manual (which follows the geneva convention mandates) in all dealings with detainees. 

That's what they tell you on TV, don't they? Because it would make Obama to look reeeeal "bad" it they didn't.

[DuffyMJ]

JohnnyDollar wrote...

DuffyMJ wrote...

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

JohnnyDollar wrote...

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

We do own Guantanamo, would be a waste of land to get rid of it

/throws a bucket of gasoline onto the fire

I think we have an indefinite lease on it actually. 

That could be true actually.  I'll have to look it up.  But some would say that saying that is also similar to saying we didn't go to war with the North Vietnamese. 

The ownership/lease issue -- regardless -- doesn't really matter. The point is that certain inviduals justified torturing people at that base because somehow (like magic) you're no longer responsible for your actions or obligated to NOT F-ING TORTURE PEOPLE LIKE A SADISTIC MONSTER one you enter the magical legal netherland of cuba. 

and then this dolt's response is 'huh-huh-huh people like you voted obama and he didn't close guantanamo!' while conveniently ignoring the fact that obama ended the torturing and we now use the army field interrogation manual (which follows the geneva convention mandates) in all dealings with detainees. 

We really need to end the politics discussions you know?  We're not going to  get anywhere anyway discussing it.  Politics and Religion arguments are not good for forums.  Lets get back to the topic please.

Now I am done playing moderator...

Convenient that you didn't bring up your "holier than thou" chastising of political debate over a page ago when it was used against MY ARGUMENTS. 

[DuffyMJ]

The Angry One wrote...

DuffyMJ wrote...

I am Shepard in my game.  I do not think it will clear her ** of any future prosecution as I have fruitlessly told you again and again and again and again...**  I also did not clear her with the evidence in my game.  I also did not stick around long enough or play Mass Effect 3 or whatever to the point where I would find out whether or not Tali is being prosecuted again for a lesser offense by her government.  I do not know Quarian law, and whether such a thing would fall under their equivalent of "double jeopardy" as it would in my home state.  I will not take the risk. 

The information given to you in the game up to that point indicates that the evidence will clear Tali.
If you refuse to believe that, I don't care. Don't try to debate on the basis that you're covering your ears and going "la la la".

The evidence up until that point of the game also indicates that your job is to provide the best defense for Tali, and also indicates that the entire trial is a sham and -- evidence or no evidence, suicide mission to save the aleri or not -- the admiralty is likely to make Tali a scapegoat anyway.  The best strategy to advocate for your client is clearly to delegitimize the kangaroo court, not to play their stupid little game. 

[DuffyMJ]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

DuffyMJ wrote...

 the fact that obama ended the torturing and we now use the army field interrogation manual (which follows the geneva convention mandates) in all dealings with detainees. 

That's what they tell you on TV, don't they? Because it would make Obama to look reeeeal "bad" it they didn't.

yup, everyone in the media is out to get you.

[DuffyMJ]

JohnnyDollar wrote...

DuffyMJ wrote...
Convenient that you didn't bring up your "holier than thou" chastising of political debate over a page ago when it was used against MY ARGUMENTS. 

I was waiting to see if you two would stop and continue with the thread topic.  You didn't though.  Hey you two want to keep going then that is fine with me.  This is a good thread topic and it would be a shame to get closed down.  Relax a little and don't build your blood pressure up so much.

... says the dude who advocates punching/shooting/otherwise causing bodily harm to characters in-game who "annoy" you or who "waste your time"!!! 

[Zulu_DFA]

DuffyMJ wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

DuffyMJ wrote...

 the fact that obama ended the torturing and we now use the army field interrogation manual (which follows the geneva convention mandates) in all dealings with detainees. 

That's what they tell you on TV, don't they? Because it would make Obama to look reeeeal "bad" it they didn't.

yup, everyone in the media is out to get you.

Not you. Your money.

[Bigdoser]

JohnnyDollar wrote...

DuffyMJ wrote...
Convenient that you didn't bring up your "holier than thou" chastising of political debate over a page ago when it was used against MY ARGUMENTS. 

I was waiting to see if you two would stop and continue with the thread topic.  You didn't though.  Hey you two want to keep going then that is fine with me.  This is a good thread topic and it would be a shame to get closed down.  Relax a little and don't build your blood pressure up so much.

This.

[Jonathan Shepard]

Booglarize wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Apparently presenting the evidence to the Quarians will destabilise them to a great degree.
Which means they have the political stability of Afghanistan. Honestly these people were screwed long before the Geth kicked them out.

Is that a Taliban reference? If so, clever. 

And notice how Tali is in Taliban? Ironic wordplay... it makes me smile. And they all have middle-easter accents, those silly Quarians... oh. Look at that. They're also trying to take back their homeland.
...I smell a hint of racism and political commentary.

[DuffyMJ]

Jonathan Shepard wrote...

Booglarize wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Apparently presenting the evidence to the Quarians will destabilise them to a great degree.
Which means they have the political stability of Afghanistan. Honestly these people were screwed long before the Geth kicked them out.

Is that a Taliban reference? If so, clever. 

And notice how Tali is in Taliban? Ironic wordplay... it makes me smile. And they all have middle-easter accents, those silly Quarians... oh. Look at that. They're also trying to take back their homeland.
...I smell a hint of racism and political commentary.

So the Geth are Jews?

lehaim, Shepard-Commander