290 réponses à ce sujet

[Zulu_DFA]

Geth are Al Qaida!

[CmdrFenix83]

The Angry One wrote...

Again, current law doesn't reflect morality.

So Skynet is right too?  It was just defending itself too, afterall. On second thought, don't answer that, because I don't care what your opinion on it is.

Ironic considering Han is voiced by Loghain's VA. Loghain being a hero too. A hero who turned out to be a rat bastard dictator.
What's the relevance here? Heroic actions don't make you a good person forever.

1) Actor doesn't mean jack.  Nicholas Cage played Castor Troy, a psychopathic murderer in Face Off, yet he also played Stanley Goodspeed in The Rock.  Does that automatically make him one of those characters' personality different?  No.  Selection in Actor is irrelevant.

2) He's a hero in the eyes of the Quarian people.  Does that mean he's infallible?  No.  It simply means that tearing down his name after he's already paid for his crimes is a punishment to the rest of the Quarians.  You cannot punish a dead man.  All you'd do is punish everyone else.

That's Tali's view on it. And she's just a little bit biased.
Yes the revelation that one of their leaders is a war criminal would be shocking, but to outright divide the fleet? How do these people survive with such a lack of proper stability?

They had it.  You destroyed it by revealing one of their leaders to be a traitor to his own people.  A man that was a hero.  You disillusioned them.  Way to go, champ.

Her wish is based on emotion and pointless loyalty to a dead man.
Tali of all people should realise the importance of letting the Quarians know what kind of crap Rael was up to.

She does realize it, and that's why she wants you to keep it secret.  You essentially destroy her people.  They rely on everyone working together, and you splintered them in every direction.  Good for you.

Again, current law doesn't reflect morality.

A toaster is a toaster, even if it's asking questions about its' existence.

Modifié par CmdrFenix83, 11 mars 2010 - 10:38 .

[CmdrFenix83]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

The mission was to fulfill Shepard's part of the bargain. Which was to help Zaeed on his mission. Technically, Zaeed was the boss on Zorya.

And yet, Zaeed defers to Shepard as de facto squad leader throughout the mission.  The mission was to liberate the facility.  Zaeed jeopardized the mission, and can get socked in the jaw for it.  If allowed, I'd have left him on that planet.  I wouldn't trust him on the main mission anyway.

[Bigdoser]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

The mission was to fulfill Shepard's part of the bargain. Which was to help Zaeed on his mission. Technically, Zaeed was the boss on Zorya.

And yet, Zaeed defers to Shepard as de facto squad leader throughout the mission.  The mission was to liberate the facility.  Zaeed jeopardized the mission, and can get socked in the jaw for it.  If allowed, I'd have left him on that planet.  I wouldn't trust him on the main mission anyway.

But as a paragon its our job to make him see the error of his ways.

[Onyx Jaguar]

Godwinned, Torture and Synthetic Sapience.



This thread has it all

[inversevideo]

Bigdoser wrote...

Sometimes the logical choices are not always the right ones. oh yes you can still get zeead loyalty if you save the workers so don't say you can't.

Actually, it is more accurate to say that sometimes you can't.

I've had 5 play throughs, and on my first, and this last one, I was unable to pass the persuasion check.

I don't think there is a renegade option, to get his loyalty, only a paragon option.

And my Sheps are usually Paragade, but at least two of them had a higher renegade score (mostly I forced a higher renegade score to be able to resolve the Miranda/Jack fight, that I can't seem to resolve no matter how high or even if I max out paragon).

And really, I don't see the Zaheed mission as being the same.

It is made very clear, by T.I.M (read his mission analysis, after each loyalty mission) that you need to have your people loyal and free from distractions, to have the best chance to succeed.

Miranda, going into the final boss fight, will caution you, if there is someone not yet loyal, before you go through the Omega4 relay.

So if you focus solely on loyalty as the issue, then yes, it is best to acceed to Zaheed's wishes as well, so as not to jeopardize your mission.  Though on most play throughs , I don't.  Eff Em, he lit the fire, and condemened the workers to die. If he is unable to commit to the mission, he undertook, to liberate the refinery, and put his own needs in front of the mission, then I don't need his stink. I can't trust him.

So, I would say if you narrow your view to doing only what will ensure loyalty, then it would be correct to treat their wishes the same.

However, speaking only for myself, my 'world' view:


1) Zaheed, STFU! The consequence of your putting your needs ahead of the mission, is that people will die! You undertook a mission to save lives. if you cannot put the mission before your needs, then I cannot trust you. Take off. Otherwise, we complete the mission we started.  I feel my Shep has to take this stance b/c as the commander, of the mission, I have to evaluate the character of each crew member or potential crew member. And If there is one that cannot put the needs of the mission first, s/he needs to go. I failed Zaheed's persuasion check, and he out right told me that he would do the mission, just don't expect anything extra from him. Goes to character, not the kind of person you really want watching your back, during a suicide mission.

2) Tali. The consequence, of the trial is really only to her.  The admirals don't give a vorcha's entrails about what Rael was doing. Each one is using the opportunity to push forward their own agenda.   Giving the admirals, Rael's data, coming 'clean' about her father's research would only destroy all her father did, in the past, and possibly plunge the Quarians into civil war.  Tali chose to sacrifice herself (via exile), putting the legacy of her father, and the needs of her people, before the needs of herself. Goes to her character. Just the sort of person I can trust to watch my back, on a suicide mission.

I ended up going into final combat with both Zaheed and Miranda disloyal, on my first run.


Just my 2cents.

YMMV

Modifié par inversevideo, 11 mars 2010 - 10:34 .

[CmdrFenix83]

The Angry One wrote...

You miss the point that you get light side points for getting a murderer off with lies and intimidation.
Thus indicating it's the "right" thing to do, thus warped morals.

And again, you're *wrong*.  You do not gain light or darkside points for this trial except using Force Persuade when talking to the witnesses in the hotel(darkside).  I *just* did this quest the other day.

gamebanshee.com/starwarskotor/locations/ahtowest.php

And maybe someone loyal to Tali would do that, but don't tell me it's the paragon thing to do.
You're protecting the name of a war criminal because of the bias of his daughter.

You're doing your job, nothing more.  There's more at stake than Tali/Zael's reputations, you're just too short-sighted to understand or simply don't care. 

[Raphael diSanto]

Jonathan Shepard wrote...

Booglarize wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Apparently presenting the evidence to the Quarians will destabilise them to a great degree.
Which means they have the political stability of Afghanistan. Honestly these people were screwed long before the Geth kicked them out.

Is that a Taliban reference? If so, clever. 

And notice how Tali is in Taliban? Ironic wordplay... it makes me smile. And they all have middle-easter accents, those silly Quarians... oh. Look at that. They're also trying to take back their homeland.
...I smell a hint of racism and political commentary.

Uh.. They do?

Liz Sroka's specifically stated that she invented Talis' accent, out of nowhere. It's vaguely eastern european, with a hint of arabic and some other bits and pieces thrown in. Tali sounds more like one of Babylon 5's Centauri than anything else.

And not all Quarians have that accent anyway.

[Zulu_DFA]

Bigdoser wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

The mission was to fulfill Shepard's part of the bargain. Which was to help Zaeed on his mission. Technically, Zaeed was the boss on Zorya.

And yet, Zaeed defers to Shepard as de facto squad leader throughout the mission.  The mission was to liberate the facility.  Zaeed jeopardized the mission, and can get socked in the jaw for it.  If allowed, I'd have left him on that planet.  I wouldn't trust him on the main mission anyway.

But as a paragon its our job to make him see the error of his ways.

That's exactly what is wrong with you paragons. You feel compelled to make everyone see the errors of their ways. Whereas your own way may also be very erroneous. But you simply won't admit it, even if it is proven by failure as the result. You'll start to blah-blah yourself out of the mess. Brag about morality, universal good and stuff.

Renegades don't get fixed in their ways. They may not be perfect, but as long as the desired result is achieved, renegades' ways are justified.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 11 mars 2010 - 10:42 .

[Bigdoser]

inversevideo wrote...

Bigdoser wrote...

Sometimes the logical choices are not always the right ones. oh yes you can still get zeead loyalty if you save the workers so don't say you can't.

Actually, it is more accurate to say that sometimes you can't.

I've had 5 play throughs, and on my first, and this last one, I was unable to pass the persuasion check.

I don't think there is a renegade option, to get his loyalty, only a paragon option.

And my Sheps are usually Paragade, but at least two of them had a higher renegade score (mostly I forced a higher renegade score to be able to resolve the Miranda/Jack fight, that I can't seem to resolve no matter how high or even if I max out paragon).

And really, I don't see the Zaheed mission as being the same.

It is made very clear, by T.I.M (read his mission analysis, after each loyalty mission) that you need to have your people loyal and free from distractions, to have the best chance to succeed.

Miranda, going into the final boss fight, will caution you, if there is someone not yet loyal, before you go through the Omega4 relay.

So if you focus solely on loyalty as the issue, then yes, it is best to acceed to Zaheed's wishes as well, so as not to jeopardize your mission.  Though on most play throughs , I don't.  Eff Em, he lit the fire, and condemened the workers to die. If he is unable to commit to the mission, he undertook, to liberate the refinery, and put his own needs in front of the mission, then I don't need his stink. I can't trust him.

So, I would say if you narrow your view to doing only what will ensure loyalty, then it would be correct to treat their wishes the same.

However, speaking only for myself, my 'world' view:


1) Zaheed, STFU! The consequence of your putting your needs ahead of the mission, is that people will die! You undertook a mission to save lives. if you cannot put the mission before your needs, then I cannot trust you. Take off. Otherwise, we complete the mission we started.  I feel my Shep has to take this stance b/c as the commander, of the mission, I have to evaluate the character of each crew member or potential crew member. And If there is one that cannot put the needs of the mission first, s/he needs to go. I failed Zaheed's persuasion check, and he out right told me that he would do the mission, just don't expect anything extra from him. Goes to character, not the kind of person you really want watching your back, during a suicide mission.

2) Tali. The consequence, of the trial is really only to her.  The admirals don't give a vorcha's entrails about what Rael was doing. Each one is using the opportunity to push forward their own agenda.   Giving the admirals, Rael's data, coming 'clean' about her father's research would only destroy all her father did, in the past, and possibly plunge the Quarians into civil war.  Tali chose to sacrifice herself (via exile), putting the legacy of her father, and the needs of her people, before the needs of herself. Goes to her character. Just the sort of person I can trust to watch my back, on a suicide mission.

I ended up going into final combat with both Zaheed and Miranda disloyal, on my first run.


Just my 2cents.

YMMV

I like this post also btw i resloved the jack/miranda confrantation with paragon.

[Jonathan Shepard]

DuffyMJ wrote...

Jonathan Shepard wrote...

Booglarize wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Apparently presenting the evidence to the Quarians will destabilise them to a great degree.
Which means they have the political stability of Afghanistan. Honestly these people were screwed long before the Geth kicked them out.

Is that a Taliban reference? If so, clever. 

And notice how Tali is in Taliban? Ironic wordplay... it makes me smile. And they all have middle-easter accents, those silly Quarians... oh. Look at that. They're also trying to take back their homeland.
...I smell a hint of racism and political commentary.

So the Geth are Jews?

lehaim, Shepard-Commander

Dunno, lol. I really just noticed that. In fact, it's really quite disturbing... 'cause now people might take it to far... OH NOES. WHAT HAVE I DONE?! XD

...for the record, I side with Legion. 

[CmdrFenix83]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

That's exactly what is wrong with you paragons. You feel compelled to make everyone see the errors of their ways. Whereas your own way may also be very erroneous. But you simply won't admit it, even if it is proven by failure as the result. You'll start to blah-blah yourself out of the mess. Brag about morality, universal good and stuff.

Renegades don't get fixed in their ways. They may not be perfect, but as long as the desired result is achieved, renegades' ways are justified.

The whole paragon point of view is that the ends do not justify the means.  Anything gained through impure methodology isn't worth the cost.  Take a look back at ME1.  Conversation with Anderson about Saren.  Anderson states, "He'd kill a thousand civilians to end a war without a second thought."  Now you get to side for or against Saren, to which Anderson replies, "I know how the world works, Commander.  Sometimes you're forced to make unpleasant choices, but only if there's no other way.  Saren doesn't even look for another way..."

The point is, the Paragon sacrifices nothing to complete his goals, while the Renegade makes unnecessary sacrifices to meet the same ones.  That may not be the philosophy behind the two ideaologies, but it is how they work out in practice.

Edit:  To apply this to Tali's trial.  Handing in the evidence will cause irreperable damage to the Quarian people, causing fragmentation and internal political problems for quite a long time.  Shepard understands this(even if many players cannot).

Modifié par CmdrFenix83, 11 mars 2010 - 10:53 .

[scxenophobe]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

Godwinned, Torture and Synthetic Sapience.

This thread has it all

Isn't it glorious? 

[DuffyMJ]

The Angry One wrote...

DuffyMJ wrote...

I am Shepard in my game.  I do not think it will clear her ** of any future prosecution as I have fruitlessly told you again and again and again and again...**  I also did not clear her with the evidence in my game.  I also did not stick around long enough or play Mass Effect 3 or whatever to the point where I would find out whether or not Tali is being prosecuted again for a lesser offense by her government.  I do not know Quarian law, and whether such a thing would fall under their equivalent of "double jeopardy" as it would in my home state.  I will not take the risk. 

The information given to you in the game up to that point indicates that the evidence will clear Tali.
If you refuse to believe that, I don't care. Don't try to debate on the basis that you're covering your ears and going "la la la".

Oh please.  Both in this thread and in the Kasumi DLC thread it's abundantly clear that you're the one who seems to deny almost anything besides your own bloated opinions.