290 réponses à ce sujet

[DuffyMJ]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

DuffyMJ wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Taliban reference? Er..... yes. Sure why not.

As for how a paragon would do it, surely a paragon would have a duty to tell the truth. Rael was a war criminal and an incompetent bufoon who put the fleet in danger.

You aren't lying by choosing the blue option.  Your argument very clearly states that "all the evidence that is needed" is Tali's storied history and accomplishments.  Which in fact is the truth. 

Except it is not "the truth", but a matter of opinion. And therefore a figure of speech.

No, no, and therefore no...

Shepard specifically states "all the evidence YOU NEED... (insert Tali's accomplishments here)" and was undoubtedly proven right in his assertion by merit of the fact that the judges voted majority innocent, thus exonerating Tali.  Therefore Shepard's statement was truth.  Shepard did not lie.  Tali's actions showed the galaxy what Quarians could do.  Nothing subjective about that, Tali committed an action or actions that were reviewed or judged by the mass galactic community.  Shepard does not say "she did good", he just says that she showed what she could do.  Nothing subjective about that.  It's truth.   Again where he says "she helped me defeat Saren/save Citadel", this is also undoubtedly truth, as an official and well-documented inquiry/hearing in front of the Citadel council specifically involved the Saren/Benezia recording which Tali recovered from a Geth memory.  Nothing subjective, factual analysis on Shepard's part.

[Zulu_DFA]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...
I'm not talking about Renegade/Paragon.  I'm talking about the state of the galaxy as a whole.  You know, the job you were given in ME1?  A Spectre, protect galactic stability?  The Council's first and last line of defense?  Do you remember any of that?

 
That's not how I remember it. I remember Captain Anderson gave me an order to become a Spectre. You know, as a matter of service to the Alliance... He didn't even want to hear my opinion (and was right, he was superior officer). I also recall, that I tried to be nice to those arrogant alien ****s, but they treated me like a lunatic all the way, and a bone, thrown by them to Udina. Finally they got themselves killed, and then I was killed too.

To be honest, a pure Renegade character should be executed as a War Criminal and a traitor after stopping the Reapers.  There are several Renegade options that make sense, tactically and logically, but many of them are you just trying to screw the galaxy up as a whole.

Not if the galaxy is made a really better place (that is with TIM in charge).

[Zulu_DFA]

DuffyMJ wrote...

 "all the evidence YOU NEED... (insert Tali's accomplishments here)"

Sorry, could you help me here? I mean with something to "insert"? I can't remember anything significant.

[CmdrFenix83]

[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...

[quote]CmdrFenix83 wrote...
I'm not talking about Renegade/Paragon.  I'm talking about the state of the galaxy as a whole.  You know, the job you were given in ME1?  A Spectre, protect galactic stability?  The Council's first and last line of defense?  Do you remember any of that?
[/quote] 
That's not how I remember it. I remember Captain Anderson gave me an order to become a Spectre. You know, as a matter of service to the Alliance... He didn't even want to hear my opinion (and was right, he was superior officer). I also recall, that I tried to be nice to those arrogant alien ****s, but they treated me like a lunatic all the way, and a bone, thrown by them to Udina. Finally they got themselves killed, and then I was killed too.[/quote][/quote]

This... I will conceed that you're correct.  You don't really have an option not to become a Spectre.  However, once you became one, the Council become your new Superior Officers, and your job was no different than any other Spectre.  You're just failing your job... horrifically.

[quote][quote]
To be honest, a pure Renegade character should be executed as a War Criminal and a traitor after stopping the Reapers.  There are several Renegade options that make sense, tactically and logically, but many of them are you just trying to screw the galaxy up as a whole.
[/quote]

Not if the galaxy is made a really better place (that is with TIM in charge).[/quote]

The galaxy is a great place then... for Cerberus.  Galactic domination and autocracy is never seen as 'better'.  Would you like your Darth title now as well?  Cause it sounds like that's what you're going for.

[CmdrFenix83]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

DuffyMJ wrote...

 "all the evidence YOU NEED... (insert Tali's accomplishments here)"

Sorry, could you help me here? I mean with something to "insert"? I can't remember anything significant.

Perhaps you should read the rest of his post.  Specifically the bit about it being her knowledge of Geth systems and her engineering expertise that allowed her to extract the information that simultaneously gets Saren's outted as a traitor and Shepard accepted intot he Spectres.

Without her, Saren would have won.

[Schroing]

I'm not talking about Renegade/Paragon. I'm talking about the state of the galaxy as a whole. You know, the job you were given in ME1? A Spectre, protect galactic stability? The Council's first and last line of defense? Do you remember any of that? To be honest, a pure Renegade character should be executed as a War Criminal and a traitor after stopping the Reapers. There are several Renegade options that make sense, tactically and logically, but many of them are you just trying to screw the galaxy up as a whole.

In a Renegade's opinion, those things either -do- benefit the galaxy of a whole or are irrelevant.
I was perfectly aware of the context of the discussion. Don't belittle me. Nothing that has happened so far as a result of a Renegade's decision could be objectively looked at as a negative result.

Modifié par Schroing, 11 mars 2010 - 06:43 .

[DuffyMJ]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

DuffyMJ wrote...

 "all the evidence YOU NEED... (insert Tali's accomplishments here)"

Sorry, could you help me here? I mean with something to "insert"? I can't remember anything significant.

"Significant" is a subjective value judgment, and is irrelevant.  You can play the game and listen to the speech if you want to know what he says (I'm pretty sure I covered the big two points he made in the paragon speech, though) the whole point of my typing that was to abbreviate the quotation which I assumed you'd reasonably be able to recall, not retort as though I'm making it up...

[Schroing]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

DuffyMJ wrote...

 "all the evidence YOU NEED... (insert Tali's accomplishments here)"

Sorry, could you help me here? I mean with something to "insert"? I can't remember anything significant.

Perhaps you should read the rest of his post.  Specifically the bit about it being her knowledge of Geth systems and her engineering expertise that allowed her to extract the information that simultaneously gets Saren's outted as a traitor and Shepard accepted intot he Spectres.

Without her, Saren would have won.

So someone who does an act of good should be given a jail-out-of-free card no matter what they do? She helped you stop Saren. Fine. That has nothing to do with the situation at hand, or the situation that was at hand, or would be.

[Barquiel]

Schroing wrote...

I'm not talking about Renegade/Paragon. I'm talking about the state of the galaxy as a whole. You know, the job you were given in ME1? A Spectre, protect galactic stability? The Council's first and last line of defense? Do you remember any of that? To be honest, a pure Renegade character should be executed as a War Criminal and a traitor after stopping the Reapers. There are several Renegade options that make sense, tactically and logically, but many of them are you just trying to screw the galaxy up as a whole.

In a Renegade's opinion, those things either -do- benefit the galaxy of a whole or are irrelevant.
I was perfectly aware of the context of the discussion. Don't belittle me. Nothing that has happened so far as a result of a Renegade's decision could be objectively looked at as a negative result.

Feros?

You might not care but...
paragon: there is a colony
renegade: there is no colony

That's a negative result

[Schroing]

DuffyMJ wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

DuffyMJ wrote...

 "all the evidence YOU NEED... (insert Tali's accomplishments here)"

Sorry, could you help me here? I mean with something to "insert"? I can't remember anything significant.

"Significant" is a subjective value judgment, and is irrelevant.

Exactly, it's irrelevant. Subjective. Nothing she did warrants an instant declaration of innocence.

[Zulu_DFA]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

DuffyMJ wrote...

 "all the evidence YOU NEED... (insert Tali's accomplishments here)"

Sorry, could you help me here? I mean with something to "insert"? I can't remember anything significant.

Perhaps you should read the rest of his post.  Specifically the bit about it being her knowledge of Geth systems and her engineering expertise that allowed her to extract the information that simultaneously gets Saren's outted as a traitor and Shepard accepted intot he Spectres.

Without her, Saren would have won.

Wrong. Without her, Shepard would have been sent to Feros without Spectre status, dealt with the Thorian, captured Shiala and had her testify before the Council. OR any other way to expose Saren. Tali's evidence is petty. Plot device.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 11 mars 2010 - 06:48 .

[Schroing]

Barquiel wrote...

Feros?

You might not care but...
paragon: there is a colony
renegade: there is no colony

That's a negative result

How?

[Asheer_Khan]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...
I'm not talking about Renegade/Paragon.  I'm talking about the state of the galaxy as a whole.  You know, the job you were given in ME1?  A Spectre, protect galactic stability?  The Council's first and last line of defense?  Do you remember any of that?

 
That's not how I remember it. I remember Captain Anderson gave me an order to become a Spectre. You know, as a matter of service to the Alliance... He didn't even want to hear my opinion (and was right, he was superior officer). I also recall, that I tried to be nice to those arrogant alien ****s, but they treated me like a lunatic all the way, and a bone, thrown by them to Udina. Finally they got themselves killed, and then I was killed too.

To be honest, a pure Renegade character should be executed as a War Criminal and a traitor after stopping the Reapers.  There are several Renegade options that make sense, tactically and logically, but many of them are you just trying to screw the galaxy up as a whole.

Not if the galaxy is made a really better place (that is with TIM in charge).

Huh???... As far as i remember neither Udina or Anderson forcing Shepard to akcept Spectre status:blink: maybe becasue i am LIGHT SIDER) and beside whole idea of Shepard's nomination comes from Nihlus in the first place.(in my case War Hero background).
He was the one who strictly recommended Shepard to be evaluated as possible Spectre candidate because Alliance didn't actually have own elected candidate at this time nd Anderson in my case was very supportive but once again he NEVER EVER give me order to akcept Spectre.

Renegade founded galaxy as better place?... good joke<_<.

I wonder how long humanity under leadership of Emperor Timmy will last when after possible repell of reapers rest of surviving civilizations decide to put at end Human Empire...

[DuffyMJ]

Schroing wrote...

I'm not talking about Renegade/Paragon. I'm talking about the state of the galaxy as a whole. You know, the job you were given in ME1? A Spectre, protect galactic stability? The Council's first and last line of defense? Do you remember any of that? To be honest, a pure Renegade character should be executed as a War Criminal and a traitor after stopping the Reapers. There are several Renegade options that make sense, tactically and logically, but many of them are you just trying to screw the galaxy up as a whole.

In a Renegade's opinion, those things either -do- benefit the galaxy of a whole or are irrelevant.
I was perfectly aware of the context of the discussion. Don't belittle me. Nothing that has happened so far as a result of a Renegade's decision could be objectively looked at as a negative result.

Get your Shepard to look in a mirror.  No, literally!  I don't know about you but regardless of the fact that I "don't care" what other people think about me, that doesn't mean that I don't go out and buy some god damn Dr. Scholl's cream or some crap to fix the nasty crap all over my face that are a direct result of my acting renegade (or, as my doctor in-game puts it, having a 'negative outlook').  The facial deterioration due to renegade actions is pretty much a testimony to the fact that having a positive outlook/paragon decision making process is conductive to -- at the very least -- the cosmetic and optical health and well-being of Commander Shepard.  I would further assert that having a positive outlook and inner-peace is widely regarded to be beneficial to human longevity and/or quality of life and acceptance of death, and so even a mostly self-interested renegade would have to agree to the merits of paragon decision making, as it is in his/her best interest...

[DuffyMJ]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

DuffyMJ wrote...

 "all the evidence YOU NEED... (insert Tali's accomplishments here)"

Sorry, could you help me here? I mean with something to "insert"? I can't remember anything significant.

Perhaps you should read the rest of his post.  Specifically the bit about it being her knowledge of Geth systems and her engineering expertise that allowed her to extract the information that simultaneously gets Saren's outted as a traitor and Shepard accepted intot he Spectres.

Without her, Saren would have won.

Wrong. Without her, Shepard would have been sent to Feros without Spectre status, dealt with the Thorian, captured Shiala and had her testify before the Council. OR any other way to expose Saren. Tali's evidence is petty. Plot device.

That's purely hypothetical.  Just the facts, ma'am.

[Schroing]

DuffyMJ wrote...

Schroing wrote...

I'm not talking about Renegade/Paragon. I'm talking about the state of the galaxy as a whole. You know, the job you were given in ME1? A Spectre, protect galactic stability? The Council's first and last line of defense? Do you remember any of that? To be honest, a pure Renegade character should be executed as a War Criminal and a traitor after stopping the Reapers. There are several Renegade options that make sense, tactically and logically, but many of them are you just trying to screw the galaxy up as a whole.

In a Renegade's opinion, those things either -do- benefit the galaxy of a whole or are irrelevant.
I was perfectly aware of the context of the discussion. Don't belittle me. Nothing that has happened so far as a result of a Renegade's decision could be objectively looked at as a negative result.

Get your Shepard to look in a mirror.  No, literally!  I don't know about you but regardless of the fact that I "don't care" what other people think about me, that doesn't mean that I don't go out and buy some god damn Dr. Scholl's cream or some crap to fix the nasty crap all over my face that are a direct result of my acting renegade (or, as my doctor in-game puts it, having a 'negative outlook').  The facial deterioration due to renegade actions is pretty much a testimony to the fact that having a positive outlook/paragon decision making process is conductive to -- at the very least -- the cosmetic and optical health and well-being of Commander Shepard.  I would further assert that having a positive outlook and inner-peace is widely regarded to be beneficial to human longevity and/or quality of life and acceptance of death, and so even a mostly self-interested renegade would have to agree to the merits of paragon decision making, as it is in his/her best interest...

Maybe Shepard has a krogan fetish.
You don't know him, don't judge.

[CmdrFenix83]

Schroing wrote...

So someone who does an act of good should be given a jail-out-of-free card no matter what they do? She helped you stop Saren. Fine. That has nothing to do with the situation at hand, or the situation that was at hand, or would be.

The incident on the Alarei has nothing to dow itht he trial at hand either.  The trial is a farce created to push political agenda by each of the Admirals.  They all state that they know Tali had nothing to do with it.  They were simply using her to go investigate so that they(Han'Garrel and Daro'Xen) might find something to help their causes.  While Mr. Qwib Qwib wanted to blow it up to prevent such things.

The entire trial is an insult to Tali, and both the charm/intim options have Shepard showing indignation over this fact.  Also, in case you're ignorant on how trials work, citing past actions as evidence is common to establish the defendant's character. 

[Schroing]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Schroing wrote...

So someone who does an act of good should be given a jail-out-of-free card no matter what they do? She helped you stop Saren. Fine. That has nothing to do with the situation at hand, or the situation that was at hand, or would be.

The incident on the Alarei has nothing to dow itht he trial at hand either.  The trial is a farce created to push political agenda by each of the Admirals.  They all state that they know Tali had nothing to do with it.  They were simply using her to go investigate so that they(Han'Garrel and Daro'Xen) might find something to help their causes.  While Mr. Qwib Qwib wanted to blow it up to prevent such things.

The entire trial is an insult to Tali, and both the charm/intim options have Shepard showing indignation over this fact.  Also, in case you're ignorant on how trials work, citing past actions as evidence is common to establish the defendant's character. 

The validity of the trial is a different matter, and nothing Tali has done -ever- suggests that she isn't prone to making mistakes.

[CmdrFenix83]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Wrong. Without her, Shepard would have been sent to Feros without Spectre status, dealt with the Thorian, captured Shiala and had her testify before the Council. OR any other way to expose Saren. Tali's evidence is petty. Plot device.

Shepard gets to Noveria.  They take his weapons.  He dies to Geth in the garage.  Oops. 

The Council already dismissed witness testimony.

[Zulu_DFA]

Asheer_Khan wrote...

Renegade founded galaxy as better place?... good joke.

It's not a joke. Too bad the bad guys won't live to see what they were trying to hamper.

I wonder how long humanity under leadership of Emperor Timmy will last when after possible repell of reapers rest of surviving civilizations decide to put at end Human Empire...

I wonder how long the galaxy would last between zillions of krogans and bajillions of rachni.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 11 mars 2010 - 07:03 .

[Schroing]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Wrong. Without her, Shepard would have been sent to Feros without Spectre status, dealt with the Thorian, captured Shiala and had her testify before the Council. OR any other way to expose Saren. Tali's evidence is petty. Plot device.

Shepard gets to Noveria.  They take his weapons.  He dies to Geth in the garage.  Oops. 

The Council already dismissed witness testimony.

Based on past experience watching Shepard roll, I find it more likely that he'd gun down everybody in Noveria and just shoot his way to the garage.

[DuffyMJ]

Schroing wrote...

DuffyMJ wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

DuffyMJ wrote...

 "all the evidence YOU NEED... (insert Tali's accomplishments here)"

Sorry, could you help me here? I mean with something to "insert"? I can't remember anything significant.

"Significant" is a subjective value judgment, and is irrelevant.

Exactly, it's irrelevant. Subjective. Nothing she did warrants an instant declaration of innocence.

False.  It is absolutely relevant as the rules of the Quarian adjudication system, as clearly stated to Shepard by the court officer conducting the trial, are to serve as Tali's advocate and to use no legal "tricks" or shenanigans.  Shepard's first duty as a participant in the trial are to Tali, not the Quarian body of society, geo-political interests (the Geth war/Reaper issues), or admissions of guilt/innocence on the part of Rael'Zora. 

Shepard would in fact be violating his duty as Tali's advocate if he had implicated her as an unknowing collaborator with Rael's war crime.  Paragon Shepard must respect rule of law, and a part of rule of law is not incriminating one who you are supposed to advocate for.  We don't know, of course, if what Tali's actions were would have constituted a crime or not (clearly she didn't knowingly bring Geth aboard, but is she nonetheless guilty of a minor offense?  We don't know.  Tali is an engineer, not a lawyer, and time is to short to pursue further council.  And so we must presume it would be a damaging revelation.  The only possible paragon options are emotional appeal (as that would not violate quarian court policy) or to recuse himself (which is not an option).

Modifié par DuffyMJ, 11 mars 2010 - 06:59 .

[Mallissin]

I wish the trial as like the trial in KOTOR1, where you had the evidence but could argue the person to innocence if you chose the right options. Tali's trial was too simple and shallow. Was kind of disappointed.

[Schroing]

DuffyMJ wrote...

Schroing wrote...

DuffyMJ wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

DuffyMJ wrote...

 "all the evidence YOU NEED... (insert Tali's accomplishments here)"

Sorry, could you help me here? I mean with something to "insert"? I can't remember anything significant.

"Significant" is a subjective value judgment, and is irrelevant.

Exactly, it's irrelevant. Subjective. Nothing she did warrants an instant declaration of innocence.

False.  It is absolutely relevant as the rules of the Quarian adjudication system, as clearly stated to Shepard by the court officer conducting the trial, are to serve as Tali's advocate and to use no legal "tricks" or shenanigans.  Shepard's first duty as a participant in the trial are to Tali, not the Quarian body of society, geo-political interests (the Geth war/Reaper issues), or admissions of guilt/innocence on the part of Rael'Zora. 

Shepard would in fact be violating his duty as Tali's advocate if he had implicated her as an unknowing collaborator with Rael's war crime.  Paragon Shepard must respect rule of law, and a part of rule of law is not incriminating one who you are supposed to advocate for.  The only possible paragon options are emotional appeal (as that would not violate quarian court policy) or to recuse himself (which is not an option).

I don't think we're arguing what you think we're arguing.

[Zulu_DFA]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Wrong. Without her, Shepard would have been sent to Feros without Spectre status, dealt with the Thorian, captured Shiala and had her testify before the Council. OR any other way to expose Saren. Tali's evidence is petty. Plot device.

Shepard gets to Noveria.  They take his weapons.  He dies to Geth in the garage.  Oops. 

The Council already dismissed witness testimony.

I said Feros.

The Council dismissed 1 witness testimony. 2 independent witnesses make the case. Besides Shiala could testfy directly brain-to-brain with the Asari Councillor. (If *my* Shepard needed her for that, it would save her life.)