290 réponses à ce sujet

[CmdrFenix83]

Schroing wrote...

The validity of the trial is a different matter, and nothing Tali has done -ever- suggests that she isn't prone to making mistakes.

Except you know that she wasn't responsible after clearing the Alarei.  They put the blame on her to create the trial because she was vaguely connected.  Regardless of your feelings on Tali or the situation, it's your job as her defense to represent her will(exactly the same as it was in the Sunry trial in KotOR).  She doesn't want the evidence shown to protect her father's good name despite the mistakes made on the Alarei.  It's your job to defend her, whether you like it or not. 

Personally, I didn't enjoy defending a guilty murderer in KotOR, but it was my job to represent my client, period.

[CmdrFenix83]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Asheer_Khan wrote...

Renegade founded galaxy as better place?... good joke.

It's not a joke. Too bad the bad guys won't live to see what they were trying to hamper.

I wonder how long humanity under leadership of Emperor Timmy will last when after possible repell of reapers rest of surviving civilizations decide to put at end Human Empire...

I wonder how long the galaxy will last between zillions of krogans and bajillions of rachni.

Considering that the Rachni aren't hostile, and their Queen is eternally grateful to Shepard(with said memories passed to all of her offspring), it's most likely that the Krogan will evolve into a mostly civil race under Wrex and the Rachni will go about their existence peacefully.  With Geth and Quarians holding hands and singing Kumbaya around campfires on their homeworld.  With the results of ME1 choices in ME2, it's likely the pure paragons will create a relative utopia in ME3.

[Schroing]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Except you know that she wasn't responsible after clearing the Alarei.  They put the blame on her to create the trial because she was vaguely connected.  Regardless of your feelings on Tali or the situation, it's your job as her defense to represent her will(exactly the same as it was in the Sunry trial in KotOR).  She doesn't want the evidence shown to protect her father's good name despite the mistakes made on the Alarei.  It's your job to defend her, whether you like it or not. 

Personally, I didn't enjoy defending a guilty murderer in KotOR, but it was my job to represent my client, period.

...So? Nothing you said has anything to do with anything I've said.
Again, you're talking to the wrong person.

[CmdrFenix83]

Schroing wrote...

Based on past experience watching Shepard roll, I find it more likely that he'd gun down everybody in Noveria and just shoot his way to the garage.

So now Shepard is a petty murderer?  You aren't a Spectre in this scenerio, you're just slaughtering innocent people.  Not to mention that Noveria might have just shot the Normandy down to begin with, you were only allowed to land because you claimed to be a Spectre.

Regardless, you definitely aren't helping your case.  Plus, the Council never would have given you information about Virmire.  They STG wouldn't have been investigating him in the first place.

[Schroing]

Considering that the Rachni aren't hostile, and their Queen is eternally grateful to Shepard(with said memories passed to all of her offspring), it's most likely that the Krogan will evolve into a mostly civil race under Wrex and the Rachni will go about their existence peacefully. With Geth and Quarians holding hands and singing Kumbaya around campfires on their homeworld. With the results of ME1 choices in ME2, it's likely the pure paragons will create a relative utopia in ME3.

Exactly; it'll be a relative utopia.

It's just as likely that the renegade options will also create a relative utopia. The question is who it's relative to.

[Zulu_DFA]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Considering that the Rachni aren't hostile, and their Queen is eternally grateful to Shepard(with said memories passed to all of her offspring), it's most likely that the Krogan will evolve into a mostly civil race under Wrex and the Rachni will go about their existence peacefully.  With Geth and Quarians holding hands and singing Kumbaya around campfires on their homeworld. 

Considering, that hostilities arise with population pressure, and Rachni breed very fast, you don't understand what I am talking about.

With the results of ME1 choices in ME2, it's likely the pure paragons will create a relative utopia in ME3.

This statement I won't dispute. Mass Effect is a computer game, after all...

[Schroing]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Schroing wrote...

Based on past experience watching Shepard roll, I find it more likely that he'd gun down everybody in Noveria and just shoot his way to the garage.

So now Shepard is a petty murderer?  You aren't a Spectre in this scenerio, you're just slaughtering innocent people.  Not to mention that Noveria might have just shot the Normandy down to begin with, you were only allowed to land because you claimed to be a Spectre.

Regardless, you definitely aren't helping your case.  Plus, the Council never would have given you information about Virmire.  They STG wouldn't have been investigating him in the first place.

Innocent people who are in his way.
And that's just as detrimental to you as it is to me, if not moreso, since I'm only arguing minor details as opposed to the actual bulk of this particular argument which I'm not involved with.

[CmdrFenix83]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Wrong. Without her, Shepard would have been sent to Feros without Spectre status, dealt with the Thorian, captured Shiala and had her testify before the Council. OR any other way to expose Saren. Tali's evidence is petty. Plot device.

Shepard gets to Noveria.  They take his weapons.  He dies to Geth in the garage.  Oops. 

The Council already dismissed witness testimony.

I said Feros.

The Council dismissed 1 witness testimony. 2 independent witnesses make the case. Besides Shiala could testfy directly brain-to-brain with the Asari Councillor. (If *my* Shepard needed her for that, it would save her life.)

Except your Renegade Shepard just murdered an entire colony.  Why would they believe a word you said?  You'd most likely be arrested the second you got to the Citadel.

[Schroing]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Wrong. Without her, Shepard would have been sent to Feros without Spectre status, dealt with the Thorian, captured Shiala and had her testify before the Council. OR any other way to expose Saren. Tali's evidence is petty. Plot device.

Shepard gets to Noveria.  They take his weapons.  He dies to Geth in the garage.  Oops. 

The Council already dismissed witness testimony.

I said Feros.

The Council dismissed 1 witness testimony. 2 independent witnesses make the case. Besides Shiala could testfy directly brain-to-brain with the Asari Councillor. (If *my* Shepard needed her for that, it would save her life.)

Except your Renegade Shepard just murdered an entire colony.  Why would they believe a word you said?  You'd most likely be arrested the second you got to the Citadel.

It was obviously self-defense.

[DuffyMJ]

Schroing wrote...

DuffyMJ wrote...

Schroing wrote...

I'm not talking about Renegade/Paragon. I'm talking about the state of the galaxy as a whole. You know, the job you were given in ME1? A Spectre, protect galactic stability? The Council's first and last line of defense? Do you remember any of that? To be honest, a pure Renegade character should be executed as a War Criminal and a traitor after stopping the Reapers. There are several Renegade options that make sense, tactically and logically, but many of them are you just trying to screw the galaxy up as a whole.

In a Renegade's opinion, those things either -do- benefit the galaxy of a whole or are irrelevant.
I was perfectly aware of the context of the discussion. Don't belittle me. Nothing that has happened so far as a result of a Renegade's decision could be objectively looked at as a negative result.

Get your Shepard to look in a mirror.  No, literally!  I don't know about you but regardless of the fact that I "don't care" what other people think about me, that doesn't mean that I don't go out and buy some god damn Dr. Scholl's cream or some crap to fix the nasty crap all over my face that are a direct result of my acting renegade (or, as my doctor in-game puts it, having a 'negative outlook').  The facial deterioration due to renegade actions is pretty much a testimony to the fact that having a positive outlook/paragon decision making process is conductive to -- at the very least -- the cosmetic and optical health and well-being of Commander Shepard.  I would further assert that having a positive outlook and inner-peace is widely regarded to be beneficial to human longevity and/or quality of life and acceptance of death, and so even a mostly self-interested renegade would have to agree to the merits of paragon decision making, as it is in his/her best interest...

Maybe Shepard has a krogan fetish.
You don't know him, don't judge.

See, the entire point of justice is to control the needed balance between equal protection under the law and liberty and other warm fuzzy subjective values and beliefs.  Renegades are inherently opposed to justice because they feel no need to justify their actions beyond their self-judgment based on their own subjective values and beliefs, even if those beliefs and values (or acting upon those beliefs) result in the infringment of the liberty of others (such as... oh I don't know... punching a mentally unhinged man in the face, justifying the act by actually believing that causing bodily harm to another brings 'balance' to the fact that he annoyed you with his insufferable ranting).

They are, as the word implies, renegades.  Society is bigger than the individual, and the individual must surrender liberty at a certain point in order not to infringe upon the liberty of others, or the collective ideas and values of the greater society or societies.  Paragons in many ways are several steps ahead of renegades in the war against the reapers, because they recognize the utility in wielding organics as a united front against the coming synthetic enemy.

[DuffyMJ]

Schroing wrote...

DuffyMJ wrote...

Schroing wrote...

DuffyMJ wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

DuffyMJ wrote...

 "all the evidence YOU NEED... (insert Tali's accomplishments here)"

Sorry, could you help me here? I mean with something to "insert"? I can't remember anything significant.

"Significant" is a subjective value judgment, and is irrelevant.

Exactly, it's irrelevant. Subjective. Nothing she did warrants an instant declaration of innocence.

False.  It is absolutely relevant as the rules of the Quarian adjudication system, as clearly stated to Shepard by the court officer conducting the trial, are to serve as Tali's advocate and to use no legal "tricks" or shenanigans.  Shepard's first duty as a participant in the trial are to Tali, not the Quarian body of society, geo-political interests (the Geth war/Reaper issues), or admissions of guilt/innocence on the part of Rael'Zora. 

Shepard would in fact be violating his duty as Tali's advocate if he had implicated her as an unknowing collaborator with Rael's war crime.  Paragon Shepard must respect rule of law, and a part of rule of law is not incriminating one who you are supposed to advocate for.  The only possible paragon options are emotional appeal (as that would not violate quarian court policy) or to recuse himself (which is not an option).

I don't think we're arguing what you think we're arguing.

You're being too pedantic to really converse with, anyway.

[CmdrFenix83]

Schroing wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Except you know that she wasn't responsible after clearing the Alarei.  They put the blame on her to create the trial because she was vaguely connected.  Regardless of your feelings on Tali or the situation, it's your job as her defense to represent her will(exactly the same as it was in the Sunry trial in KotOR).  She doesn't want the evidence shown to protect her father's good name despite the mistakes made on the Alarei.  It's your job to defend her, whether you like it or not. 

Personally, I didn't enjoy defending a guilty murderer in KotOR, but it was my job to represent my client, period.

...So? Nothing you said has anything to do with anything I've said.
Again, you're talking to the wrong person.

No, I know which person I'm talking to.  I don't need to go requote every post you've made on the last page.  You said her past history with helping against Saren is irrelevant.  I'm telling you flat out that it isn't.  You said these actions don't prove her innocence, I'm saying that we know she is.  Your job is to represent her.  It's that simple.  The trial's validity *is* the point of the charm/intim options, and simply calling them on their BS makes them realize that it's unfair of them to blame her for a situation she was barely even linked to.  They know Tali, they know she wouldn't have done what they accused her of.

Her past actions are relevant in a trial, and that's the only point you've tried to argue.

[CmdrFenix83]

Schroing wrote...

Considering that the Rachni aren't hostile, and their Queen is eternally grateful to Shepard(with said memories passed to all of her offspring), it's most likely that the Krogan will evolve into a mostly civil race under Wrex and the Rachni will go about their existence peacefully. With Geth and Quarians holding hands and singing Kumbaya around campfires on their homeworld. With the results of ME1 choices in ME2, it's likely the pure paragons will create a relative utopia in ME3.

Exactly; it'll be a relative utopia.
It's just as likely that the renegade options will also create a relative utopia. The question is who it's relative to.

Relative to what the galaxy was before Shepard got involved. 

If your idea of Utopia is to be Darth Douchebag under Emperor Illusive Man, then sure, you can have your "Utopia".  However, this is *not* better for the galaxy as a whole, and goes against the entire point I made in my first posts.

[DuffyMJ]

Schroing wrote...

Considering that the Rachni aren't hostile, and their Queen is eternally grateful to Shepard(with said memories passed to all of her offspring), it's most likely that the Krogan will evolve into a mostly civil race under Wrex and the Rachni will go about their existence peacefully. With Geth and Quarians holding hands and singing Kumbaya around campfires on their homeworld. With the results of ME1 choices in ME2, it's likely the pure paragons will create a relative utopia in ME3.

Exactly; it'll be a relative utopia.
It's just as likely that the renegade options will also create a relative utopia. The question is who it's relative to.

There's a lot less variation in morality than you presume, the overwhelming social consensus favors the paragon utopia as desirable (thinking end screen shot in the first game) as opposed to the renegade utopia (a plant being annihilated in the end screen shot of the first game...) 

Your idea of relative morality is basically excuse-making for sociopaths and outliers who pollute societies.  You're unfairly representing the situation as if exactly as many people are "for" renegade as are "for" paragon, when the truth is that those who are "for" renegade reality are a small minority and are therefore outside the consensus.

[CmdrFenix83]

Schroing wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Schroing wrote...

Based on past experience watching Shepard roll, I find it more likely that he'd gun down everybody in Noveria and just shoot his way to the garage.

So now Shepard is a petty murderer?  You aren't a Spectre in this scenerio, you're just slaughtering innocent people.  Not to mention that Noveria might have just shot the Normandy down to begin with, you were only allowed to land because you claimed to be a Spectre.

Regardless, you definitely aren't helping your case.  Plus, the Council never would have given you information about Virmire.  They STG wouldn't have been investigating him in the first place.

Innocent people who are in his way.
And that's just as detrimental to you as it is to me, if not moreso, since I'm only arguing minor details as opposed to the actual bulk of this particular argument which I'm not involved with.

You realize the Council would take action against Shepard for gunning down an entire spaceport, right?  A shred of actual evidence is all they would need.  A single security recording is enough, as we've seen.  Your 'minor details' are things that would end up ending poorly when Spectres start showing up to take you out.

[CmdrFenix83]

Schroing wrote...

It was obviously self-defense.

Again, why would they believe a word you said?  You just murdered an entire colony of civilians as a highly trained marine. 

[Zulu_DFA]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Wrong. Without her, Shepard would have been sent to Feros without Spectre status, dealt with the Thorian, captured Shiala and had her testify before the Council. OR any other way to expose Saren. Tali's evidence is petty. Plot device.

Shepard gets to Noveria.  They take his weapons.  He dies to Geth in the garage.  Oops. 

The Council already dismissed witness testimony.

I said Feros.

The Council dismissed 1 witness testimony. 2 independent witnesses make the case. Besides Shiala could testfy directly brain-to-brain with the Asari Councillor. (If *my* Shepard needed her for that, it would save her life.)

Except your Renegade Shepard just murdered an entire colony.  Why would they believe a word you said?  You'd most likely be arrested the second you got to the Citadel.

*My* renegade Shepard saved the colony.

[DuffyMJ]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Wrong. Without her, Shepard would have been sent to Feros without Spectre status, dealt with the Thorian, captured Shiala and had her testify before the Council. OR any other way to expose Saren. Tali's evidence is petty. Plot device.

Shepard gets to Noveria.  They take his weapons.  He dies to Geth in the garage.  Oops. 

The Council already dismissed witness testimony.

I said Feros.

The Council dismissed 1 witness testimony. 2 independent witnesses make the case. Besides Shiala could testfy directly brain-to-brain with the Asari Councillor. (If *my* Shepard needed her for that, it would save her life.)

Except your Renegade Shepard just murdered an entire colony.  Why would they believe a word you said?  You'd most likely be arrested the second you got to the Citadel.

*My* renegade Shepard saved the colony.

Zulu, your whole argument hinges on hypothetical assumptions that you would be able to travel to the colony, keep Shiala alive, bring her before an inquiry against her will, etc... and you're calling Tali's evidence a petty plot device? please.  Nothing is more petty than hypothetical "what if's". 

[Schroing]

DuffyMJ wrote...

here's a lot less variation in morality than you presume, the overwhelming social consensus favors the paragon utopia as desirable (thinking end screen shot in the first game) as opposed to the renegade utopia (a plant being annihilated in the end screen shot of the first game...) 

Your idea of relative morality is basically excuse-making for sociopaths and outliers who pollute societies.  You're unfairly representing the situation as if exactly as many people are "for" renegade as are "for" paragon, when the truth is that those who are "for" renegade reality are a small minority and are therefore outside the consensus.

Bull****. "Social consensus" has absolutely nothing to do with this and you're an idiot if you think it does.

[Schroing]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Schroing wrote...

It was obviously self-defense.

Again, why would they believe a word you said?  You just murdered an entire colony of civilians as a highly trained marine. 

The Thorian is still there, all dead and stuff, and you have the entire ExoGeni corp backing you up.

[Schroing]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Relative to what the galaxy was before Shepard got involved.

You can't factually state that the renegade options, assuming that they wouldn't prevent you from defeating the Reapers (which I think is a fair assumption, here) would be any better for "the galaxy" than the paragon options. You just can't.

If your idea of Utopia is to be Darth Douchebag under Emperor Illusive Man, then sure, you can have your "Utopia".

It's not mine; it's Renegade Shepard's.

[Zulu_DFA]

DuffyMJ wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Wrong. Without her, Shepard would have been sent to Feros without Spectre status, dealt with the Thorian, captured Shiala and had her testify before the Council. OR any other way to expose Saren. Tali's evidence is petty. Plot device.

Shepard gets to Noveria.  They take his weapons.  He dies to Geth in the garage.  Oops. 

The Council already dismissed witness testimony.

I said Feros.

The Council dismissed 1 witness testimony. 2 independent witnesses make the case. Besides Shiala could testfy directly brain-to-brain with the Asari Councillor. (If *my* Shepard needed her for that, it would save her life.)

Except your Renegade Shepard just murdered an entire colony.  Why would they believe a word you said?  You'd most likely be arrested the second you got to the Citadel.

*My* renegade Shepard saved the colony.

Zulu, your whole argument hinges on hypothetical assumptions that you would be able to travel to the colony, keep Shiala alive, bring her before an inquiry against her will, etc... and you're calling Tali's evidence a petty plot device? please.  Nothing is more petty than hypothetical "what if's". 

Look, it's just happened so, that it was Tali's evidence, that helped to expose Saren. But Saren needed to be exposed, and he was going to this way or another. It's not like he covered up all tracks. Claiming that Tali's evidence was the single and only possible way in the Galaxy to do that is much pettier than "hypothetical "what if's"".

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 11 mars 2010 - 07:38 .

[CmdrFenix83]

Schroing wrote...

DuffyMJ wrote...

here's a lot less variation in morality than you presume, the overwhelming social consensus favors the paragon utopia as desirable (thinking end screen shot in the first game) as opposed to the renegade utopia (a plant being annihilated in the end screen shot of the first game...) 

Your idea of relative morality is basically excuse-making for sociopaths and outliers who pollute societies.  You're unfairly representing the situation as if exactly as many people are "for" renegade as are "for" paragon, when the truth is that those who are "for" renegade reality are a small minority and are therefore outside the consensus.

Bull****. "Social consensus" has absolutely nothing to do with this and you're an idiot if you think it does.

Actually that's the whole point of what's 'better' for the galaxy.  What's 'better' is what is better for the most individuals involved.  Your idea of what's 'better' is just what's better for you as a Renegade that likes to kill everything he encounters and bullies the rest.  His statement is perfectly relevant.

[alphax1]

No you have Administrator Jung being the complete weasel that he is and saying 'there was a gas leak' or something...

[Schroing]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Schroing wrote...

DuffyMJ wrote...

here's a lot less variation in morality than you presume, the overwhelming social consensus favors the paragon utopia as desirable (thinking end screen shot in the first game) as opposed to the renegade utopia (a plant being annihilated in the end screen shot of the first game...) 

Your idea of relative morality is basically excuse-making for sociopaths and outliers who pollute societies.  You're unfairly representing the situation as if exactly as many people are "for" renegade as are "for" paragon, when the truth is that those who are "for" renegade reality are a small minority and are therefore outside the consensus.

Bull****. "Social consensus" has absolutely nothing to do with this and you're an idiot if you think it does.

Actually that's the whole point of what's 'better' for the galaxy.  What's 'better' is what is better for the most individuals involved.  Your idea of what's 'better' is just what's better for you as a Renegade that likes to kill everything he encounters and bullies the rest.  His statement is perfectly relevant.

Cool, except he didn't say that; he said that the higher moral option is that of the majority. Or, what the majority thinks is what's right. Which is ****ing wrong.
And by the  Renegade Shepard's logic, everything he does -does- help the majority of the galaxy, one way or another. They might not agree, but that doesn't matter.

Modifié par Schroing, 11 mars 2010 - 07:42 .