290 réponses à ce sujet

[Schroing]

DuffyMJ wrote...

Schroing wrote...

DuffyMJ wrote...

I have nothing to prove to you

You obviously do. You spent, like, what, a good 5 minutes of your time typing all of that crap up, and it sure wasn't for anyone else in this thread.

Once again, you're basing everything you think on ridiculous assumptions... one that doesn't consider, for instance, that I'm bored on a video game message board during a 3 hour seminar...

Like there's nothing else you could've done. You're even justifying it, which is in and of itself something that you're trying to prove to me.

[Zulu_DFA]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Schroing wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Schroing wrote...

And I think you're a dirty sheep/on-the-bandwagon-guy/conformist/communist.

I wasn't aware that 'majority rule' and democracy was communism.

"That was a joke."

Right, everyone knows that communists are renegades...

[reaches for steel helmet]

Actually Renegades would be dictators moving to set the pawns of the galaxy(other races) against each other to move in and take power for themselves.

Actually, Turians and Salarians don't have a notion of democracy. How do you feel about that?

[DuffyMJ]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

DuffyMJ wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

DuffyMJ wrote...
Tali AI hacked, overloaded, sabotaged, droned, energy drained, and shotgun-blasted her way through entire legions of Geth, Mercs, Husks and, possibly depending on what order you played your ME2 missions, Collectors and Reaper-occupied collector bodies.

Not in *my* game, she didn't. As I said, it's a matter of Shepard's opinion and oratorical talent to sway the Admirals by a fancy speech.

*My* Shepard presented the Quarians with the evidence of Rael'Zorah's culpability in order to sabotage their war effort against the Geth, whom he sees as the only useful and therefore desirable Humanity's ally against the Reapers. And beyond.

I have no evidence of how you played your game, only your testimony which, in context of this conversation, is highly suspect.  It's also absolutely impossible for you to have played up until the point of the trial without having had Tali fight by your side and contribute to your survival as such without Tali being assigned as a squadmember, unless you are also arguing that you conciously did not level her up, utilize her skills against the Geth, and managed to position her so that she made zero shots on target throughout the mission. 

In ME1 I used Tali once. On Virmire, when Ashley was arming the nuke and Kaidan was frying at the AA tower.
In ME2 I used Tali once. At her loyalty mission. I didn't coun how many geth she killed but I'm sure i killed/hacked more and Legion killed more than her too.

I was hoping to leave her with the Migrant Fleet after the trial, but the game didn't give me a chance. She died during the C-base approach.

If you're going to be utilitarian, judging a being's inherit worth based on "kill counts", then the Reapers would probably merit greater worth or value as a species than any creature with whom you've interacted, and Shepard him/her-self.

[Zulu_DFA]

JohnnyDollar wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Schroing wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Schroing wrote...

And I think you're a dirty sheep/on-the-bandwagon-guy/conformist/communist.

I wasn't aware that 'majority rule' and democracy was communism.

"That was a joke."

Right, everyone knows that communists are renegades...

[reaches for steel helmet]

Actually Renegades would be dictators moving to set the pawns of the galaxy(other races) against each other to move in and take power for themselves.

What defenition of Renegade are you using?

"Renegades Are Bad"

[CmdrFenix83]

Schroing wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Schroing wrote...

One of many hypotheticals.
Or, maybe, the first planet you decide to go to after playing spin the globe is Virmire, and while there you hear the radio transmission from the STG and thus everything is set in place and whatnot and thus the epic tale begins.

Wrong.  The STG isn't investigating Virmire because they were sent to investigate Saren after you exposed him.  Virmire remains completely unknown, and Saren with his armies of Geth and Krogan come pouring through the Conduit and activate the relay.  Game.  Over.

Then it's just as likely you start at Ilos and eyeball the counduit while you're there.
Or someone else exposes Saren, or Tali survives the ambush and presents the evidence on her own.

Only way to Ilos is the Mu Relay in the Terminus Systems.  Nothing points to Saren operating out there, only in the Verge and Traverse.  You don't randomly start jumping from planet to planets in the trillions of them in the galaxy in hopes that your scanners happen to find Saren.  You have to act on information.  Your investigation leads to Tali and her evidence.  Claiming she's inconsequential means you just rush off after the only leads you have, the Geth sightings on Feros and Noveria.  No Spectre status will make this much harder than you think.  Becoming a mass-murdering psychopath hurts your cause *far* more than it helps it.

[Schroing]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Schroing wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Schroing wrote...

One of many hypotheticals.
Or, maybe, the first planet you decide to go to after playing spin the globe is Virmire, and while there you hear the radio transmission from the STG and thus everything is set in place and whatnot and thus the epic tale begins.

Wrong.  The STG isn't investigating Virmire because they were sent to investigate Saren after you exposed him.  Virmire remains completely unknown, and Saren with his armies of Geth and Krogan come pouring through the Conduit and activate the relay.  Game.  Over.

Then it's just as likely you start at Ilos and eyeball the counduit while you're there.
Or someone else exposes Saren, or Tali survives the ambush and presents the evidence on her own.

Only way to Ilos is the Mu Relay in the Terminus Systems.  Nothing points to Saren operating out there, only in the Verge and Traverse.  You don't randomly start jumping from planet to planets in the trillions of them in the galaxy in hopes that your scanners happen to find Saren.

Or maybe you do.
What about HYPOTHETICAL SITUATION do you not understand?

[CmdrFenix83]

Schroing wrote...

Good for 1 species != good for all.

Prove it.

Your Renegade Shepard is a powerhungry douchebag.

No he's not. He's not dying any of this for himself; he just believes that other races are big, stupid jellyfish and can't rule over themselves. They -need- human held, they -need- human leadership.

Rationalizations from the mind of a dictator in the making.  They ruled over themselves for thousands of years just fine.  There's a threat that no one could see coming in the billions of years since it happened.  The Protheans managed to hide a small research base and gave out a warning after-the-fact.  Shepard found said warning.  How does being the species that happened to find this beacon translate into "the only ones fit to rule"?  Rationalizing.

[Zulu_DFA]

DuffyMJ wrote...

If you're going to be utilitarian, judging a being's inherit worth based on "kill counts", then the Reapers would probably merit greater worth or value as a species than any creature with whom you've interacted, and Shepard him/her-self.

I'm not sure how is this relevant, but yes, Reapers are badass... sort of. They are freaking badass faultering machinery that need to be deactivated, dismantled and scrapped. And that's exacly what Shepard has to do (and not necessarily make everyone happy).

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 11 mars 2010 - 08:30 .

[DuffyMJ]

Schroing wrote...

DuffyMJ wrote...

Schroing wrote...

DuffyMJ wrote...

I have nothing to prove to you

You obviously do. You spent, like, what, a good 5 minutes of your time typing all of that crap up, and it sure wasn't for anyone else in this thread.

Once again, you're basing everything you think on ridiculous assumptions... one that doesn't consider, for instance, that I'm bored on a video game message board during a 3 hour seminar...

Like there's nothing else you could've done. You're even justifying it, which is in and of itself something that you're trying to prove to me.

No, I'm not justifying anything -- I feel perfectly justified in everything I do because I'm a person who takes every action with due consideration.  I'm providing you with a hypothetical scenario to demontrate the fallacy of your thinking in general, not just with regard to one particular issue.  Whether it effects your thinking or not is pretty irrelevant to me, I'm truthfully more satisfied with this conversation as a demonstration to lurkers who can witness the fallacy of the renegade mind. 

[DuffyMJ]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

DuffyMJ wrote...

If you're going to be utilitarian, judging a being's inherit worth based on "kill counts", then the Reapers would probably merit greater worth or value as a species than any creature with whom you've interacted, and Shepard him/her-self.

I'm not sure how is this relevant, but yes, Reapers are badass... sort of. They are freaking badass faultering machinery that need to be deactivated, dismantled and scrapped. And that's exacly what Shepard has to do (and not necessarily make everyone happy).

It is relevant because everything you argue, no matter how you dress it up, renegade boils down to "might makes right".  If the reapers defeat you, they will have been justified in defeating you, because in the world of the renegade, there is no higher purpose -- there is only your purpose. 

[CmdrFenix83]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Actually, Turians and Salarians don't have a notion of democracy. How do you feel about that?

And yet, they each have a single representative on a Council that debate and decide things in favor of the galaxy as a whole, not one species.

[Zulu_DFA]

DuffyMJ wrote...

Schroing wrote...

DuffyMJ wrote...

Schroing wrote...

DuffyMJ wrote...

I have nothing to prove to you

You obviously do. You spent, like, what, a good 5 minutes of your time typing all of that crap up, and it sure wasn't for anyone else in this thread.

Once again, you're basing everything you think on ridiculous assumptions... one that doesn't consider, for instance, that I'm bored on a video game message board during a 3 hour seminar...

Like there's nothing else you could've done. You're even justifying it, which is in and of itself something that you're trying to prove to me.

No, I'm not justifying anything -- I feel perfectly justified in everything I do because I'm a person who takes every action with due consideration.  I'm providing you with a hypothetical scenario to demontrate the fallacy of your thinking in general, not just with regard to one particular issue.  Whether it effects your thinking or not is pretty irrelevant to me, I'm truthfully more satisfied with this conversation as a demonstration to lurkers who can witness the fallacy of the renegade mind. 

... and be in awe of the brilliance of yours?

[CmdrFenix83]

JohnnyDollar wrote...

What defenition of Renegade are you using?  That is a pretty broad statement.

The one that pertains to Shroing and Zulu.  Personally, I think the actual definition of Renegade would be 'Jack Bauer'.  A good person at heart that's willing to get his hands dirty if it's necessary.  These two(Zulu especially) are mostly about beating the Reapers... and creating an opening for themselves while executing as many people they don't like as possible.

[Zulu_DFA]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Actually, Turians and Salarians don't have a notion of democracy. How do you feel about that?

And yet, they each have a single representative on a Council that debate and decide things in favor of the galaxy as a whole, not one species.

Some people I met, like an Alliance loyalist, a Volus ambassador, a Batarian terrorist, and a Quarian fanboy favorite were of the contrary opinion.

[CmdrFenix83]

Schroing wrote...

Or maybe you do.
What about HYPOTHETICAL SITUATION do you not understand?

The only thing changed int he hypothetical is not going after Tali's data and skipping the part to ignore Saren.  You then change data based on that one instance, as that's exactly what would happen.  You can't just start waving a magic wand and changing everything afterwards to your liking.  It's a series of dominoes, you change one thing, it rolls down the line.

[DuffyMJ]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

DuffyMJ wrote...

Schroing wrote...

DuffyMJ wrote...

Schroing wrote...

DuffyMJ wrote...

I have nothing to prove to you

You obviously do. You spent, like, what, a good 5 minutes of your time typing all of that crap up, and it sure wasn't for anyone else in this thread.

Once again, you're basing everything you think on ridiculous assumptions... one that doesn't consider, for instance, that I'm bored on a video game message board during a 3 hour seminar...

Like there's nothing else you could've done. You're even justifying it, which is in and of itself something that you're trying to prove to me.

No, I'm not justifying anything -- I feel perfectly justified in everything I do because I'm a person who takes every action with due consideration.  I'm providing you with a hypothetical scenario to demontrate the fallacy of your thinking in general, not just with regard to one particular issue.  Whether it effects your thinking or not is pretty irrelevant to me, I'm truthfully more satisfied with this conversation as a demonstration to lurkers who can witness the fallacy of the renegade mind. 

... and be in awe of the brilliance of yours?

I don't think with my mind, I think with my heart.

[CmdrFenix83]

JohnnyDollar wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

JohnnyDollar wrote...

What defenition of Renegade are you using?  That is a pretty broad statement.

The one that pertains to Shroing and Zulu.  Personally, I think the actual definition of Renegade would be 'Jack Bauer'.  A good person at heart that's willing to get his hands dirty if it's necessary.  These two(Zulu especially) are mostly about beating the Reapers... and creating an opening for themselves while executing as many people they don't like as possible.

Ok, I thought you were just casting all Renegades in the same light.

Nah, I've taken many of the 'Renegade' decisions myself, but those characters still end up with 80-100% paragon bar too.

[The Angry One]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

The Governator wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Taliban reference? Er..... yes. Sure why not.

As for how a paragon would do it, surely a paragon would have a duty to tell the truth. Rael was a war criminal and an incompetent bufoon who put the fleet in danger.

Umm...What?

That begs the question of Geth sapience which has not been proven satisfactorily.  They have no emotions, they have no individual identity...they are not alive.  The only criminality possible is his incompetence. 

His crime was activating the Geth on the Alarei, nothing else.  He paid for the crime with his life.

He's a war criminal both for experimenting on sentient life (which has been proven whether you like it or not) and by the Quarian's own laws for creating AI within the fleet.
Sorry, paying with his own life is not good enough. The public have a right to know about his deeds, the families of the inhabitants of the Alarei, the victims of his idiotic experiment have a right to know, participating in a cover up just to salve Tali's feelings is not a paragon action and never will be.

[Zulu_DFA]

DuffyMJ wrote...

 If the reapers defeat you, they will have been justified in defeating you. 

If they defeat me, it won't really matter if they are justified. That's why I'm going to defeat them, and don't give a crap about justifing it.

[Asheer_Khan]

God... i see that "Main Kampf" ideals are still very popular...