290 réponses à ce sujet

[CmdrFenix83]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Actually, Turians and Salarians don't have a notion of democracy. How do you feel about that?

And yet, they each have a single representative on a Council that debate and decide things in favor of the galaxy as a whole, not one species.

Some people I met, like an Alliance loyalist, a Volus ambassador, a Batarian terrorist, and a Quarian fanboy favorite were of the contrary opinion.

Galaxy as a whole.  Apparently you don't seem to understand that part.  Batarians broke off on their own because of their own stupidity.  "Humans are colonizing empty worlds in an area of space we want!"  "So?"  "Fine, we quit, **** you, Council!" 

I believe the Council's handling of the Quarians was an unnecessary punishment after being nearly driven to extinction, but this decision benefits more people within Council space, seeing as there are more of every other species than Quarians. 

You'll have to point out the Volus and which Alliance Loyalist you're referring to here.

[DuffyMJ]

JohnnyDollar wrote...

DuffyMJ wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

DuffyMJ wrote...

Schroing wrote...

DuffyMJ wrote...

Schroing wrote...

DuffyMJ wrote...

I have nothing to prove to you

You obviously do. You spent, like, what, a good 5 minutes of your time typing all of that crap up, and it sure wasn't for anyone else in this thread.

Once again, you're basing everything you think on ridiculous assumptions... one that doesn't consider, for instance, that I'm bored on a video game message board during a 3 hour seminar...

Like there's nothing else you could've done. You're even justifying it, which is in and of itself something that you're trying to prove to me.

No, I'm not justifying anything -- I feel perfectly justified in everything I do because I'm a person who takes every action with due consideration.  I'm providing you with a hypothetical scenario to demontrate the fallacy of your thinking in general, not just with regard to one particular issue.  Whether it effects your thinking or not is pretty irrelevant to me, I'm truthfully more satisfied with this conversation as a demonstration to lurkers who can witness the fallacy of the renegade mind. 

... and be in awe of the brilliance of yours?

I don't think with my mind, I think with my heart.

That says it all.  Your using emotion for the basis of your arguments.  Not that I haven't done that myself of course, but the emotional arguments never seem to be the logical ones.

Yes but logical doesn't matter unless you're a utilitarian.  Life has too much nuance to be a creature of pure calucation, I'm sorry.  Treating a child rapist and some guy who flashes his wiener while publicly urinating both as level 2 sex offenders (which happens in our very cruel, calculating legal system in the US) is an example of that.  So while emotional arguments aren't always logical, logical arguments aren't always SANE ones. 

[Zulu_DFA]

JohnnyDollar wrote...

DuffyMJ wrote...

I don't think with my mind, I think with my heart.

That says it all.  Your using emotion for the basis of your arguments.  Not that I haven't done that myself of course, but the emotional arguments never seem to be the logical ones.

It also says that Duffy isn't as good at anatomy as at rhetoric.

Hearts don't think. They pump blood.

Now, call me a renegade.

[GenericPlayer2]

Schroing wrote...

GenericPlayer2 wrote...

Yes, it is the right thing to do. Its like Zaeed's loyalty mission, you can do the right thing and not get his loyalty, or you can do as he asks. No different.

...Uh...persuasion check?

The common argument for concealing the truth about the Alarei is that you are there for Tali, and must do as she asks. These same people get angry at the reaper cover-up and at Zaeed  - which is pretty inconsistent.

My Shep hates cover-ups, so he reveals the evidence at the trial, and if there was an option to reveal what the STG did on Tuchanka he would have done that as well.

Modifié par GenericPlayer2, 11 mars 2010 - 08:50 .

[Bigdoser]

Sometimes the logical choices are not always the right ones. oh yes you can still get zeead loyalty if you save the workers so don't say you can't.

Modifié par Bigdoser, 11 mars 2010 - 08:48 .

[CmdrFenix83]

The Angry One wrote...

He's a war criminal both for experimenting on sentient life (which has been proven whether you like it or not) and by the Quarian's own laws for creating AI within the fleet.
Sorry, paying with his own life is not good enough. The public have a right to know about his deeds, the families of the inhabitants of the Alarei, the victims of his idiotic experiment have a right to know, participating in a cover up just to salve Tali's feelings is not a paragon action and never will be.

AI aren't considered living beings within Council Space.  They are illegal creations and their destruction is law.  There's no grand crime being done when someone experiments on existing AI.  I suppose you could make the case that he was breaking the law by researching on AI altogether, but to call it a War Crime because of your personal belief that Geth deserve the same protection as every other sentient being in the galaxy is laughable at best.

No, the people do not need to have their hero torn down in front of them publicly for making a single mistake in his long, respected, and admired life.  The cover up has nothing to do with Tali's feelings.  You're her representation in the trial.  You're there to be her voice.  Her voice says to hide it, doing anything other than that is going against your role as her representative.

And for the love of god, do *not* bring the Geth debate into this thread.

[DuffyMJ]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

DuffyMJ wrote...

 If the reapers defeat you, they will have been justified in defeating you. 

If they defeat me, it won't really matter if they are justified. That's why I'm going to defeat them, and don't give a crap about justifing it.

Of course it will matter.  You'll be defeated.  And as Earth burns, you will be a victim of your own twisted value system.

[Zulu_DFA]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

You'll have to point out the Volus and which Alliance Loyalist you're referring to here.

Volus AMBASSADOR. And Ashley Stupid Williams.

But don't bother.

Actually I like Mordin's explanation: Life is a game, and so on. And it's not like you should restrain yourself, if you're a better player. (This goes more to TIM, than renegade Shepard).

[CmdrFenix83]

GenericPlayer2 wrote...

Schroing wrote...

GenericPlayer2 wrote...

Yes, it is the right thing to do. Its like Zaeed's loyalty mission, you can do the right thing and not get his loyalty, or you can do as he asks. No different.

...Uh...persuasion check?

The common argument for concealing the truth about the Alarei is that you are there for Tali, and must do as she asks. These same people get angry at the reaper cover-up and at Zaeed  - which is pretty inconsistent.

My Shep hates cover-ups, so he reveals the evidence at the trial, and if there was an option to reveal what the STG did on Tuchanka he would have done that as well.

Actually, Zaeed's mission was about liberating the refinery workers from slavery.  Vido just happens to be there, and Zaeed lets his own lust for revenge jeopardize the mission.  Or did you not pay attention to anything Shepard says in the paragon route here?

[DuffyMJ]

Bigdoser wrote...

Sometimes the logical choices are not always the right ones. oh yes you can still get zeead loyalty if you save the workers so don't say you can't.

Yes but what renegades fail to realize that no decision is a direct 1-to-1 function.  You let hundreds of people die by allowing that factory to burn to the ground, and while you presume to know the consequences of your actions (based on the loyalty quest) the truth of the matter is you have no idea what your decision wrought.  you might have killed a young woman who would have grown up to invent some great medical technology, or someone who had some valuable knowledge that could have served well in the war against the Reapers.  You don't know.  And the renegade's fallacy is this presumption that "I know what's best" when... yeah.... ya don't...

[Zulu_DFA]

[quote]DuffyMJ wrote...

[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...

[quote]DuffyMJ wrote...

 If the reapers defeat you, they will have been justified in defeating you. 
[/quote]

If they defeat me, it won't really matter if they are justified. That's why I'm going to defeat them, and don't give a crap about justifing it.[/quote]

Of course it will matter.  You'll be defeated.  And as Earth burns, you will be a victim of your own twisted value system.
[/quote]

Misunderstending here.
If they defeat me, it won't really matter whether they are justified or not. That's why I'm going to defeat them, and don't give a crap about justifing it.[/quote]

[The Angry One]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

AI aren't considered living beings within Council Space.  They are illegal creations and their destruction is law.  There's no grand crime being done when someone experiments on existing AI.  I suppose you could make the case that he was breaking the law by researching on AI altogether, but to call it a War Crime because of your personal belief that Geth deserve the same protection as every other sentient being in the galaxy is laughable at best.

It's a war crime in principle.
Moreover there was a time in our own history where non-whites were considered sub-human in many parts of the world and didn't have the same rights and protection as others. Did this make it okay to experiment on them?
And again, it's a war crime under the Quarian's own law, for different reasons.

No, the people do not need to have their hero torn down in front of them publicly for making a single mistake in his long, respected, and admired life. 

How do we know? If he was capable of something that stupid we don't know what else he's done.
The Quarian admiralty isn't exactly made of the most ethical and balanced people to begin with.

The cover up has nothing to do with Tali's feelings.  You're her representation in the trial.  You're there to be her voice.  Her voice says to hide it, doing anything other than that is going against your role as her representative.

You're railroaded into being her "voice", moreover just because you're her de facto lawyer it doesn't mean the truth goes out the window. Moreover it means you have a duty to present the evidence that will clear her name.
The paragon/renegade options are really just a copout.

And for the love of god, do *not* bring the Geth debate into this thread.

I'm not debating. The Geth are clearly sapient. Don't claim otherwise just because it's inconvenient.

[GenericPlayer2]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

He's a war criminal both for experimenting on sentient life (which has been proven whether you like it or not) and by the Quarian's own laws for creating AI within the fleet.
Sorry, paying with his own life is not good enough. The public have a right to know about his deeds, the families of the inhabitants of the Alarei, the victims of his idiotic experiment have a right to know, participating in a cover up just to salve Tali's feelings is not a paragon action and never will be.

AI aren't considered living beings within Council Space.  They are illegal creations and their destruction is law.  There's no grand crime being done when someone experiments on existing AI.  I suppose you could make the case that he was breaking the law by researching on AI altogether, but to call it a War Crime because of your personal belief that Geth deserve the same protection as every other sentient being in the galaxy is laughable at best.

No, the people do not need to have their hero torn down in front of them publicly for making a single mistake in his long, respected, and admired life.  The cover up has nothing to do with Tali's feelings.  You're her representation in the trial.  You're there to be her voice.  Her voice says to hide it, doing anything other than that is going against your role as her representative.

And for the love of god, do *not* bring the Geth debate into this thread.

Tali is the one who said war criminal, that is by Quarian standards. So all this discussion about Geth being alive and council law is moot.

[Azint]

Am I the only one who thought of the Sunry trial in KOTOR?

[Zulu_DFA]

DuffyMJ wrote...

Bigdoser wrote...

Sometimes the logical choices are not always the right ones. oh yes you can still get zeead loyalty if you save the workers so don't say you can't.

Yes but what renegades fail to realize that no decision is a direct 1-to-1 function.  You let hundreds of people die by allowing that factory to burn to the ground, and while you presume to know the consequences of your actions (based on the loyalty quest) the truth of the matter is you have no idea what your decision wrought.  you might have killed a young woman who would have grown up to invent some great medical technology, or someone who had some valuable knowledge that could have served well in the war against the Reapers.  You don't know.  And the renegade's fallacy is this presumption that "I know what's best" when... yeah.... ya don't...

A couple of pages ago somebody told me that there's nothing more petty, than "what if's".

And the mission was: assist Zaeed on his mission.

Besides, how many more young women going to invent something do you think Vido will kill if he escapes?

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 11 mars 2010 - 08:59 .

[GenericPlayer2]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Actually, Zaeed's mission was about liberating the refinery workers from slavery.  Vido just happens to be there, and Zaeed lets his own lust for revenge jeopardize the mission.  Or did you not pay attention to anything Shepard says in the paragon route here?

Zaeed only took the mission because Vido was there. Shall we continue to nitpick over convenient semantics?

[DuffyMJ]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

You'll have to point out the Volus and which Alliance Loyalist you're referring to here.

Volus AMBASSADOR. And Ashley Stupid Williams.

But don't bother.

Actually I like Mordin's explanation: Life is a game, and so on. And it's not like you should restrain yourself, if you're a better player. (This goes more to TIM, than renegade Shepard).

Look I live in a capitalist society, and don't deny that people should exercise themselves to their fullest potential, but the difference is that you have to draw a line when it comes to infringing on the natural rights of other living beings.  The fact that renegade players can't even seem to acknowledge the fact that -- at a certain point -- renegade Shepard crosses that line, is very disingenuous.  I see the justification behind preserving the collector base, for instance (considering FLEETS OF ROBOT SUPER BEINGS ARE COMING!!!) but shooting an unarmed woman who was possessed by another creature?  punching a traumatized survivor out?  slaughtering a colony of people when they can be taken out with non-lethal force?  blowing up at a panhandler looking for concert tickets?  Give me a break, how about some common freaking courtesy? 

But no, renegade players often defend these decision to death, or -- even if they themselves didn't choose those particular set of decisions -- they simply go off on how paragons are boring hippy communists with the assumption that paragons make EVERY SINGLE paragon choice. 

[DuffyMJ]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

DuffyMJ wrote...

Bigdoser wrote...

Sometimes the logical choices are not always the right ones. oh yes you can still get zeead loyalty if you save the workers so don't say you can't.

Yes but what renegades fail to realize that no decision is a direct 1-to-1 function.  You let hundreds of people die by allowing that factory to burn to the ground, and while you presume to know the consequences of your actions (based on the loyalty quest) the truth of the matter is you have no idea what your decision wrought.  you might have killed a young woman who would have grown up to invent some great medical technology, or someone who had some valuable knowledge that could have served well in the war against the Reapers.  You don't know.  And the renegade's fallacy is this presumption that "I know what's best" when... yeah.... ya don't...

A couple of pages ago somebody told me that there's nothing more petty, than "what if's".

And the mission was: assist Zaeed on his mission.

Besides, how many more young women going to invent something do you think Vido will kill if he escapes?

Oh my god dude, are you serious?  What if's are "should have happened" things... speculation on EVENTS THAT HAVE PASSED.  I'm talking about CONSEQUENCES, which are very real and grounded.  A great example is when we gave weapons to taliban in the war in the 80s to fight the USSR only to have those same weapons and training end up being used against americans in the 2000s.

[The Angry One]

Azint wrote...

Am I the only one who thought of the Sunry trial in KOTOR?

I did too, and it has similar warped morals.
Granted, this isn't as outright horrible as that one.
In this case, you can reason that you need Tali and the Quarians ignorant of the truth at least until the Reapers are defeated.
In the KOTOR trial, you're outright supposed to get a murderer off free with lies, intimidation and evidence witholding just because he's a Republic agent and the victim was a Sith agent (the murder not being done for any cause to benefit the Republic, and the agent having no information that would warrant absolving him)

[Xandurpein]

I always felt that Tali and Garrus are the two squad mates that stayed with my Shepard through out everything, So they are the ones who can demand some loyalty and trust from me in return. If Tali asks me to hide the evidence, even if I argue against it, ultimatly I trust her. If Garrus wants to take the shot at Sidonis even if I argue against it, ultimatly I trust him.

[Onyx Jaguar]

Azint wrote...

Am I the only one who thought of the Sunry trial in KOTOR?

Not quite as extreme. Anyway theres alot more going on in this thread than that.  I'd jump in since I've been lurking but quite frankly on this decision I didn't care if I was doing the right thing or not.

Modifié par Onyx Jaguar, 11 mars 2010 - 09:06 .

[DuffyMJ]

[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...

[quote]DuffyMJ wrote...

[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...

[quote]DuffyMJ wrote...

 If the reapers defeat you, they will have been justified in defeating you. 
[/quote]

If they defeat me, it won't really matter if they are justified. That's why I'm going to defeat them, and don't give a crap about justifing it.[/quote]

Of course it will matter.  You'll be defeated.  And as Earth burns, you will be a victim of your own twisted value system.
[/quote]

Misunderstending here.
If they defeat me, it won't really matter whether they are justified or not. That's why I'm going to defeat them, and don't give a crap about justifing it.[/quote]
[/quote]

Yes, it will matter.  If the Reapers were justified in defeating you, then it will provide a basis of future judgment.  Organics like Saren SUBMITTED to the Reapers rather than fight back because renegade types like Saren only recognize what is mighty, not what is right.  My god how did you come out of childhood so utterly cynical? 

[Zulu_DFA]

DuffyMJ wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

You'll have to point out the Volus and which Alliance Loyalist you're referring to here.

Volus AMBASSADOR. And Ashley Stupid Williams.

But don't bother.

Actually I like Mordin's explanation: Life is a game, and so on. And it's not like you should restrain yourself, if you're a better player. (This goes more to TIM, than renegade Shepard).

Look I live in a capitalist society, and don't deny that people should exercise themselves to their fullest potential, but the difference is that you have to draw a line when it comes to infringing on the natural rights of other living beings.  The fact that renegade players can't even seem to acknowledge the fact that -- at a certain point -- renegade Shepard crosses that line, is very disingenuous.  I see the justification behind preserving the collector base, for instance (considering FLEETS OF ROBOT SUPER BEINGS ARE COMING!!!) but shooting an unarmed woman who was possessed by another creature?  punching a traumatized survivor out?  slaughtering a colony of people when they can be taken out with non-lethal force?  blowing up at a panhandler looking for concert tickets?  Give me a break, how about some common freaking courtesy? 

But no, renegade players often defend these decision to death, or -- even if they themselves didn't choose those particular set of decisions -- they simply go off on how paragons are boring hippy communists with the assumption that paragons make EVERY SINGLE paragon choice. 

Well, if you think that I ALWAYS click on RED, like a freaking Pavlov's Dog, you're sadly mistaken.