44 réponses à ce sujet

[GEWill]

A while back I posted about how beastly the Rogue class is, but after finally playing a dual weapon Warrior I have to say that it should be illegal. Dual weapon Rogues are downright nightmares, but after making a dual weapon Warrior the comparison isn't even fair.

Up until this point I had only done sword & shield Warriors and they are nasty in their own right, but all I can say is DAMN about the dual weapon warrior. I previously said the Rogue was like playing in a fulltime beast-mode, but after seeing my Warrior perform I don't even know what a fair label would be.

Thank you Bioware developers......

[Taritu]

They're nice. But they're still nothing compared to a properly specced mage.

[Cuthlan]

Eh, a dual wield warrior can hang with a mage in single-target DPS. Less utility and less AE damage, though.

Modifié par Cuthlan, 11 mars 2010 - 06:47 .

[Petsura]

If you consider the usefulness of rogue specializations in contrast to the ones for the warrior class I'd say the rogue is still stronger.

[nicodeemus327]

Petsura wrote...

If you consider the usefulness of rogue specializations in contrast to the ones for the warrior class I'd say the rogue is still stronger.

I'd have to agree was well. A rogue has so much utility then a dual wield warrior. Their damage is about the same.

Modifié par nicodeemus327, 11 mars 2010 - 07:10 .

[GEWill]

Petsura wrote...

If you consider the usefulness of rogue specializations in contrast to the ones for the warrior class I'd say the rogue is still stronger.

Oh I agree completely. I still prefer a Rogue because of the other utility powers, but in terms of just raw damage the dual weapon Warrior is just nasty.

[GEWill]

Taritu wrote...

They're nice. But they're still nothing compared to a properly specced mage.

That depends. Of course there would be less utility and less area of effect damage, but in terms of single target damage, the Mage does not compare. Personally I think Mages are way overpowered, but Warriors have the right level of balance for the most part.

[paganifangirl]

I have to say out of all the warrior specializations dual-weapons is the fastest in terms how long it takes to execute a hit. That's how I speced my first warrior since I'm a me-lee junkie. When I switching switch to Alistair (Sword and Shield) or Sten (Two-Hands) I found the wait time between attacks to be downright annoying! >.< If I wasn't a trophy **** (need that heavy hitter trophy) I wouldn't spec my warriors any other way.

[Fishy]

My Dual weirld Warrior was a templar/berserker .. had all the talent of the warrior/Dual wield and some from the shield one ..



I had something like 60 str/50 dex/35 constitution/400+ hitpoints .. wielding gaxfang and the axe you purchase from Enchantement for 131 gold.



He was a beast .. A BEAST!

Mage ? pff .. Weak.



i need to try the reaver spec with berserker.



The only utility of the rogue class it's opening chest and trap . Outside of it .. Warrior>>>>Rogue .. I can taunt/Detaunt/Aoe stun/1 shot and have 3 time the armor and almost the same defensive has a rogue ... They"re indeed overpowered.

[k9medusa]

GEWill wrote...

Taritu wrote...

They're nice. But they're still nothing compared to a properly specced mage.

That depends. Of course there would be less utility and less area of effect damage, but in terms of single target damage, the Mage does not compare. Personally I think Mages are way overpowered, but Warriors have the right level of balance for the most part.

May I point out, in most battles (many vs four), with out a meat shield, mages are so dead -- but one on one -- watch out! 

[thegreateski]

Duel wield warriors are unreasonably powerful.



I love playing on mine.

[yasuraka.hakkyou]

k9medusa wrote...

GEWill wrote...

Taritu wrote...

They're nice. But they're still nothing compared to a properly specced mage.

That depends. Of course there would be less utility and less area of effect damage, but in terms of single target damage, the Mage does not compare. Personally I think Mages are way overpowered, but Warriors have the right level of balance for the most part.

May I point out, in most battles (many vs four), with out a meat shield, mages are so dead -- but one on one -- watch out! 

mind blast, cone of cold, gylph of paralysis / warding / repulsion, and force field would like to have a word with you.

[Petsura]

Suprez30 wrote...
Warrior>>>>Rogue .. I can taunt/Detaunt/Aoe stun/1 shot and have 3 time the armor and almost the same defensive has a rogue ... They"re indeed overpowered.

Doesn't look like you have much energy at your disposal to execute any of your skills with so many points in STR, DEX and CON though.

Modifié par Petsura, 11 mars 2010 - 09:19 .

[GEWill]

k9medusa wrote...

May I point out, in most battles (many vs four), with out a meat shield, mages are so dead -- but one on one -- watch out! 

I find Mages easy one v one. Unless they hit me with Misdirection or freeze me they are pretty much dead.

[DargonBlak]

GEWill wrote...

k9medusa wrote...

May I point out, in most battles (many vs four), with out a meat shield, mages are so dead -- but one on one -- watch out! 

I find Mages easy one v one. Unless they hit me with Misdirection or freeze me they are pretty much dead.

"Unless they hit (you) with (crowd control) " ???

Sorry folks, i love my Dwarf Warrior, but my Elven Mage always wins...

while i agree that the enemy mages can be a bit tricky, (especially when they cast Curse of Mortality or Swarm), they seem to lose it quickly when drawn into melee...  but one on one with a Player Character Mage, and the Warrior will lose every time...

Maybe Bioware should start and Ultima On-line for us all to go one-on-one against each other...

[DargonBlak]

yasuraka.hakkyou wrote...

k9medusa wrote...

GEWill wrote...

Taritu wrote...

They're nice. But they're still nothing compared to a properly specced mage.

That depends. Of course there would be less utility and less area of effect damage, but in terms of single target damage, the Mage does not compare. Personally I think Mages are way overpowered, but Warriors have the right level of balance for the most part.

May I point out, in most battles (many vs four), with out a meat shield, mages are so dead -- but one on one -- watch out! 

mind blast, cone of cold, gylph of paralysis / warding / repulsion, and force field would like to have a word with you.

+1

[Gill Kaiser]

It's true. Dual Striking + Momentum + Berserking makes you into an unstoppable whirling dervish of death... one with access to AOE and numerous critting/stunning abilities. I'm having a blast with mine.

[Bratt1204]

I always play as a DW Female Warrior or Rogue, my favs.

[UnitedWashclothExpress]

Reaver+Berserker=Game Over.



Nothing can stand against you, thanks to the Reaver's last skill.

[steelfire_dragon]

my last warrior was a dual wield beserker champion, along with the mod that adds books at each loading, at the end my character was a nightmare....

[DargonBlak]

OK, so you've sold me...



i'll have to check out this whirling dervish of death...

[EscapedGoat]

See the following posts for Maths that confirm DW warriors as top single target DPS (better than Rogue backstabs)

http://www.gamefaqs....&topic=52602963

http://social.biowar.../index/223777/1 (scroll down to post 3 for the summary)

Summary:

Even with the best gear, a backstabbing cunning dagger rogue does 100 DPS.
A dual wielding dagger warrior does 85.1 DPS. if dual striking, he does 85.1*1.5 = 127.6 DPS (from the front!)

Why 1.5 modifier for dual striking?

Dual striking strikes with both weapons at once, so you would expect a multipier of 2, however, there is also a bug with dual striking which makes 1/4th of your attacks just "disappear" (i've labbed this). 2 * 3/4 = 6/4 = 1.5, which means 50% more hits or a 50% increase in DPS.

Using talents or other weapons than daggers is pretty much pointless as the calculations show, it will actually lower your DPS. Auto attacking with momentum + dual striking = win!

Modifié par EscapedGoat, 12 mars 2010 - 08:54 .

[jsachun]

I thought Archery > Mage. Especially when archers have longer range & arrow of slaying.

[casedawgz]

EscapedGoat wrote...

See the following posts for Maths that confirm DW warriors as top single target DPS (better than Rogue backstabs)

http://www.gamefaqs....&topic=52602963

http://social.biowar.../index/223777/1 (scroll down to post 3 for the summary)

Summary:

Even with the best gear, a backstabbing cunning dagger rogue does 100 DPS.
A dual wielding dagger warrior does 85.1 DPS. if dual striking, he does 85.1*1.5 = 127.6 DPS (from the front!)

Why 1.5 modifier for dual striking?

Dual striking strikes with both weapons at once, so you would expect a multipier of 2, however, there is also a bug with dual striking which makes 1/4th of your attacks just "disappear" (i've labbed this). 2 * 3/4 = 6/4 = 1.5, which means 50% more hits or a 50% increase in DPS.

Using talents or other weapons than daggers is pretty much pointless as the calculations show, it will actually lower your DPS. Auto attacking with momentum + dual striking = win!

True enough for raw dps, but sometime you want to riposte for a stun.

[krylo]

EscapedGoat wrote...

See the following posts for Maths that confirm DW warriors as top single target DPS (better than Rogue backstabs)

http://www.gamefaqs....&topic=52602963

http://social.biowar.../index/223777/1 (scroll down to post 3 for the summary)

Summary:

Even with the best gear, a backstabbing cunning dagger rogue does 100 DPS.
A dual wielding dagger warrior does 85.1 DPS. if dual striking, he does 85.1*1.5 = 127.6 DPS (from the front!)

Why 1.5 modifier for dual striking?

Dual striking strikes with both weapons at once, so you would expect a multipier of 2, however, there is also a bug with dual striking which makes 1/4th of your attacks just "disappear" (i've labbed this). 2 * 3/4 = 6/4 = 1.5, which means 50% more hits or a 50% increase in DPS.

Using talents or other weapons than daggers is pretty much pointless as the calculations show, it will actually lower your DPS. Auto attacking with momentum + dual striking = win!

I'm not buying this.

The warrior calculations take Momentum into account to achieve the 85.whatever DPS.  The Rogue Calculations do not.  They take other things into account, such as tainted blood, and critting:

B: DUAL WIELD ATTACK TIMING

I did a bunch of video capture experiments to determine that attack timing for dual wield weapons works as follows:

Step 1: for each weapon you're wielding, start with 1.5s and substract that weapon's speed modifier (see [[http://dragonage.gul...p/items/weapons
for the modifiers). Thus for daggers this value will be 1.0s and for
axes it will be 1.4s. The 1.5s starting point comes from the base
attack interval for the dual-wield style, as defined in core_h.nss, and
verified by my in-game testing.

Step 2: Average the two numbers above and call the result T. This is your attack interval.

Whether
backstabbing or attacking from the front, you will alternate hands
every T seconds. Don't believe the backstab animation, which looks like
it's attacking with the mainhand only. Also, when backstabbing, it
appears that the mainhand runes trigger (or have a chance to trigger)
on every attack, even when the offhand should be attacking. Offhand
runes never trigger. I can only assume this is a bug.

Because
your attack speed is the average of your two hands, the DPS-conscious
rogue with a fullsize weapon in her mainhand will usually want to use a
dagger in her offhand, to speed up her attacks. This also saves her
attribute points that would have gone to dex for DW Mastery.

Haste
and Momentum reduce T by 25% and 30%, respectively, at the END of the
attack timing calculation. Thus I ignore them for purposes of the DPS
calculations, since they'll affect all builds by the same proportion.

With momentum the attack interval on that 100 damage reduces from 1.0s to .7s.

As a result the 100 base damage of a backstabbing rogue becomes: 142.9 DPS, which blows your 127.6 DPS out of the water.

And a warrior using dual-striking will always add a set 1.5x attack bonus.  Backstabbing adds a 1.5x base, but can be increased up to a 3.5x base, so knowing just that ALONE, should have told you there was something not right between those two calculations.

Modifié par krylo, 12 mars 2010 - 09:58 .