44 réponses à ce sujet

[blademaster7]

^ There is also the song of courage which boosts attack, damage and crit chance for your entire party. No one ever takes that into account for some reason.

I prefer DW Rogues my self but not for DPS. I don't really care if it takes me 3 seconds to kill a mob instead of 4.

I like playing as a Rogue because of the utility you get through stealth, stuns and trap disarming.

Modifié par blademaster7, 12 mars 2010 - 10:02 .

[krylo]

blademaster7 wrote...

I prefer DW Rogues my self but not for DPS. I don't really care if it takes me 3 seconds to kill a mob instead of 4.

Me neither.

It was kind of nice finally figuring out where the idea that DW warriors are better DPS machines when rogues have, LITERALLY ALL THE SAME DPS TOOLS AND THEN A FEW EXTRA, came from.

To find out it's just that one damage calculation applied momentum and the other didn't is kind of a let down, though.

[EscapedGoat]

krylo wrote...

EscapedGoat wrote...

See the following posts for Maths that confirm DW warriors as top single target DPS (better than Rogue backstabs)

http://www.gamefaqs....&topic=52602963

http://social.biowar.../index/223777/1 (scroll down to post 3 for the summary)

Summary:

Even with the best gear, a backstabbing cunning dagger rogue does 100 DPS.
A dual wielding dagger warrior does 85.1 DPS. if dual striking, he does 85.1*1.5 = 127.6 DPS (from the front!)

Why 1.5 modifier for dual striking?

Dual striking strikes with both weapons at once, so you would expect a multipier of 2, however, there is also a bug with dual striking which makes 1/4th of your attacks just "disappear" (i've labbed this). 2 * 3/4 = 6/4 = 1.5, which means 50% more hits or a 50% increase in DPS.

Using talents or other weapons than daggers is pretty much pointless as the calculations show, it will actually lower your DPS. Auto attacking with momentum + dual striking = win!

I'm not buying this.

The warrior calculations take Momentum into account to achieve the 85.whatever DPS.  The Rogue Calculations do not.  They take other things into account, such as tainted blood, and critting:

B: DUAL WIELD ATTACK TIMING

I did a bunch of video capture experiments to determine that attack timing for dual wield weapons works as follows:

Step 1: for each weapon you're wielding, start with 1.5s and substract that weapon's speed modifier (see [[http://dragonage.gul...p/items/weapons
for the modifiers). Thus for daggers this value will be 1.0s and for
axes it will be 1.4s. The 1.5s starting point comes from the base
attack interval for the dual-wield style, as defined in core_h.nss, and
verified by my in-game testing.

Step 2: Average the two numbers above and call the result T. This is your attack interval.

Whether
backstabbing or attacking from the front, you will alternate hands
every T seconds. Don't believe the backstab animation, which looks like
it's attacking with the mainhand only. Also, when backstabbing, it
appears that the mainhand runes trigger (or have a chance to trigger)
on every attack, even when the offhand should be attacking. Offhand
runes never trigger. I can only assume this is a bug.

Because
your attack speed is the average of your two hands, the DPS-conscious
rogue with a fullsize weapon in her mainhand will usually want to use a
dagger in her offhand, to speed up her attacks. This also saves her
attribute points that would have gone to dex for DW Mastery.

Haste
and Momentum reduce T by 25% and 30%, respectively, at the END of the
attack timing calculation. Thus I ignore them for purposes of the DPS
calculations, since they'll affect all builds by the same proportion.

With momentum the attack interval on that 100 damage reduces from 1.0s to .7s.

As a result the 100 base damage of a backstabbing rogue becomes: 142.9 DPS, which blows your 127.6 DPS out of the water.

And a warrior using dual-striking will always add a set 1.5x attack bonus.  Backstabbing adds a 1.5x base, but can be increased up to a 3.5x base, so knowing just that ALONE, should have told you there was something not right between those two calculations.

Response:

Momentum: Okay, I missed that and it's quite big. However, 142.9 Situational DPS (requires backstab) does not "blow" 127.6 NON-situational DPS out of the water.

+crit damage gear: That's allready accounted for in the calculations - see the list of equipment used. The calculations are done with DPS optimal gear. The multiplier can in theory be 3.5, in the build referenced, it is 1.95. At any rate, it's allready included and thus your point is void.

Another point: the build that boasts 142.9 DPS is a cunning build with an unbuffed attack rating of 95 (lol). For comparison, the warrior attack rating is 130+, enough to score 100% hit rates in the character sheet. 95 attack rating WILL cause you to hit less than 100%.  If you lose 10% hit, the cunning build is allready "down" to warrior dual strike DPS. The highest DPS of the builds that can actually reach 100% hit rate is axe/dagger/dex at 129.9 after momentum, which is a whole 2 DPS more, but requiring 100% backstabs - that's all the time, no time lost to positioning.

Fact of the matter is that warriors have at lvl 18 + 7.2 dmg/hit just for being a warrior (0.4 per level), +8 dmg/hit from berserk, +1dmg/hit from bravery, while Rogues have +3.6 dmg/hit from being a rogue (0.2 per level) and +1 dmg/hit from duelist. This means that every hit from a warrior is going to be delivering 11.6 dmg/hit more than the rogue. This is why the warrior DPS is so high (the innate class + berserk bonuses which the rogue lacks, but rogue have their situational backstab)

[krylo]

EscapedGoat wrote...

Response:

Momentum: Okay, I missed that and it's quite big. However, 142.9 Situational DPS (requires backstab) does not "blow" 127.6 NON-situational DPS out of the water.

Except it's not situational.  Master paralyze rune on both weapons.  Take Coup De Grace.  Turn on dual striking between combat, go in doing 127.6 DPS, as though you were a warrior, as soon as paralyze kicks in, turn off dual stricking and jump to 142.9 DPS.

+crit damage gear: That's allready accounted for in the calculations - see the list of equipment used. The calculations are done with DPS optimal gear. The multiplier can in theory be 3.5, in the build referenced, it is 1.95. At any rate, it's allready included and thus your point is void.

Point is that Dualstriking adds 1.5x damage bonus.

You can equip and stat a rogue exactly the same as a warrior.  EXACTLY.  There is nothing forcing you to go for a Cunning build, other than the numbers showing that it's best.  You can do a str/dex build just like a warrior and equip all the same things other than keening blade--which being not a dagger, is still not as good anyway.

Another point: the build that boasts 142.9 DPS is a cunning build with an unbuffed attack rating of 95 (lol). For comparison, the warrior attack rating is 130+, enough to score 100% hit rates in the character sheet. 95 attack rating WILL cause you to hit less than 100%.  If you lose 10% hit, the cunning build is allready "down" to warrior dual strike DPS. The highest DPS of the builds that can actually reach 100% hit rate is axe/dagger/dex at 129.9 after momentum, which is a whole 2 DPS more, but requiring 100% backstabs - that's all the time, no time lost to positioning.

Cool story bro.

Except that you're not factoring in flanking bonuses, or the duelist attack bonus.  But hell, let's, just for ****s and giggles, assume you statted up your rogue just like a warrior in the other set--str/dex.  Know what happens to the damage calculations?

They stay exactly the same, except instead of multiplying by 1.5 for dual striking, you multiply by 1.95 for backstab damage.  Edit: And you lose 11 damage off the base, which isn't going to make that big of a difference.

Know what that means?

Also:

Hard to compare directly. On the one hand, Song of Courage gives an
attack bonus of 3 + 0.1 * (cun - 10), which comes out to about +10.5
attack for the builds we're considering. This is slightly less than the
+11 attack Dueling gives you when you factor in the Duelist spec's
bonus of +2 dex. But Song of Courage also gives about +6 damage at this
level, and of course it's a party wide benefit. So I would say that a
high level Song of Courage > Dueling overall, especially if you have
other physical damage dealers in the group.

Warriors don't get attack buffs except precise striking and perfect striking, both of which cost attack speed, and would, therefore DECREASE DPS.

A Bard/Duelist could have an attack with a cunning build of 122, and gain an extra +6 damage per attack, and it's party wide.

Fact of the matter is that warriors have at lvl 18 + 7.2 dmg/hit just for being a warrior (0.4 per level), +8 dmg/hit from berserk, +1dmg/hit from bravery, while Rogues have +3.6 dmg/hit from being a rogue (0.2 per level) and +1 dmg/hit from duelist. This means that every hit from a warrior is going to be delivering 11.6 dmg/hit more than the rogue. This is why the warrior DPS is so high (the innate class + berserk bonuses which the rogue lacks, but rogue have their situational backstab)

I'm way too lazy to calculate EVERY damage bonus rogues get, but.

Mark of death an enemy.  Roughly +33% damage taken by that enemy from all sources.

Assuming that we're doing 100 damage per hit, give or take (1.0 attack speed dagger build), that means our DPS is now 133 again, without momentum, and it increases the DPS of my entire party against that opponent.  And you're figuring in berserk, but not the bonus from lacerate?  With momentum my rogue DPS is 190.6 after Mark of Death.

Further, even without that, those bonuses are already figured into the calculations we've been comparing.  Bringing them up now adds nothing.  Well except the +1 bonus from dueling.

Modifié par krylo, 12 mars 2010 - 11:22 .

[blademaster7]

I find the berserk activation-deactivation to be more annoying than trying to get to a flank position to be honest. Not to mention that with dirty fighting+riposte(along with coup de grace) you'll take out 2 mobs without the need to flank. And then there is stealth(auto crit) poisons and paralyze runes.

The cooldown of Dirty Fighting, Riposte and Stealth is low enough, so, you can actually take out an entire group of mobs without flanking if you wish to do so.

As for the attack rating, the calculations do not take into account a second specialization. Bard and Duelist both raise the att score. The former gives more DPS to your entire party, in fact.

Modifié par blademaster7, 12 mars 2010 - 11:28 .

[EscapedGoat]

krylo wrote...

EscapedGoat wrote...

Response:

Momentum: Okay, I missed that and it's quite big. However, 142.9 Situational DPS (requires backstab) does not "blow" 127.6 NON-situational DPS out of the water.

Except it's not situational.  Master paralyze rune on both weapons.  Take Coup De Grace.  Turn on dual striking between combat, go in doing 127.6 DPS, as though you were a warrior, as soon as paralyze kicks in, turn off dual stricking and jump to 142.9 DPS.

+crit damage gear: That's allready accounted for in the calculations - see the list of equipment used. The calculations are done with DPS optimal gear. The multiplier can in theory be 3.5, in the build referenced, it is 1.95. At any rate, it's allready included and thus your point is void.

Point is that Dualstriking adds 1.5x damage bonus.

You can equip and stat a rogue exactly the same as a warrior.  EXACTLY.  There is nothing forcing you to go for a Cunning build, other than the numbers showing that it's best.  You can do a str/dex build just like a warrior and equip all the same things other than keening blade--which being not a dagger, is still not as good anyway.

Another point: the build that boasts 142.9 DPS is a cunning build with an unbuffed attack rating of 95 (lol). For comparison, the warrior attack rating is 130+, enough to score 100% hit rates in the character sheet. 95 attack rating WILL cause you to hit less than 100%.  If you lose 10% hit, the cunning build is allready "down" to warrior dual strike DPS. The highest DPS of the builds that can actually reach 100% hit rate is axe/dagger/dex at 129.9 after momentum, which is a whole 2 DPS more, but requiring 100% backstabs - that's all the time, no time lost to positioning.

Cool story bro.

Except that you're not factoring in flanking bonuses, or the duelist attack bonus.  But hell, let's, just for ****s and giggles, assume you statted up your rogue just like a warrior in the other set--str/dex.  Know what happens to the damage calculations?

They stay exactly the same, except instead of multiplying by 1.5 for dual striking, you multiply by 1.95 for backstab damage.  Edit: And you lose 11 damage off the base, which isn't going to make that big of a difference.

Know what that means?

Also:

Hard to compare directly. On the one hand, Song of Courage gives an
attack bonus of 3 + 0.1 * (cun - 10), which comes out to about +10.5
attack for the builds we're considering. This is slightly less than the
+11 attack Dueling gives you when you factor in the Duelist spec's
bonus of +2 dex. But Song of Courage also gives about +6 damage at this
level, and of course it's a party wide benefit. So I would say that a
high level Song of Courage > Dueling overall, especially if you have
other physical damage dealers in the group.

Warriors don't get attack buffs except precise striking and perfect striking, both of which cost attack speed, and would, therefore DECREASE DPS.

A Bard/Duelist could have an attack with a cunning build of 122, and gain an extra +6 damage per attack, and it's party wide.

Fact of the matter is that warriors have at lvl 18 + 7.2 dmg/hit just for being a warrior (0.4 per level), +8 dmg/hit from berserk, +1dmg/hit from bravery, while Rogues have +3.6 dmg/hit from being a rogue (0.2 per level) and +1 dmg/hit from duelist. This means that every hit from a warrior is going to be delivering 11.6 dmg/hit more than the rogue. This is why the warrior DPS is so high (the innate class + berserk bonuses which the rogue lacks, but rogue have their situational backstab)

I'm way too lazy to calculate EVERY damage bonus rogues get, but.

Mark of death an enemy.  Roughly +33% damage taken by that enemy from all sources.

Assuming that we're doing 100 damage per hit, give or take (1.0 attack speed dagger build), that means our DPS is now 133 again, without momentum, and it increases the DPS of my entire party against that opponent.  And you're figuring in berserk, but not the bonus from lacerate?  With momentum my rogue DPS is 190.6 after Mark of Death.

Further, even without that, those bonuses are already figured into the calculations we've been comparing.  Bringing them up now adds nothing.  Well except the +1 bonus from dueling.

paralyze rune is only  5% chance, does not equal permanent stunlock. Besides, 2 paralyze runes means +5 dmg/hit less because you have no Grandmaster damage rune in that slot. So not the difference to the warrior is 16.6 dmg/hit? No matter how you look at it, if you include backstab in any form it's situational damage.

If you equip and stat a Rogue and warrior exactly the same the warrior will end up with a trivial amount more health and stamina, the Rogue with more skills, but the 11.6 damage/hit will still be there. It's NOT trivial, it's about 20-25% increase over what a rogue can achieve (before backstabs and bonuses and other talents). And the difference grows with each level.

A dual striking Rogue from the front will NOT do 127.6 DPS autoattacking because he does not have those 11.6 dmg/hit, so the base damage that you are applying 1.5 dps modifier to is lower, and you cannot say that since you can apply a 1.95 as a Rogue SOME of the time it is more damage (because the BASE damage is lower due to the fixed bonuses, and you will not be applying 1.95 100% of the time - sorry.

Attack rating buffs are irrelevant for a warrior OR Rogue that goes full dex/str (any combination is OK), they will hit 99%-100% of the time anyway, but it is relevant for a Cunning Rogue who will hit most of the time due to flanking and other bonuses, but not allways.

The Rogue calculations are done with assassin specialization (unfortunately bringing in power of blood as well), the warrior calculations are done with berserker specialization. Of course, we could bring in even more bonuses and flesh this out fully, for example the warrior power of blood has a 0.8 attack speed modifier talent that stacks with momentum for a dagger swing speed of 0.5 which further icreases Non-situational DW warrior dual striking DPS to 178.8, and this should be included since power of blood abilities are for the Rogue. This is before even including boosts from the second warrior specialization - if you add reaver, that's extra DPS on top of that, easily bringing DW warrior > 190.6 DPS.

Modifié par EscapedGoat, 12 mars 2010 - 12:51 .

[krylo]

EscapedGoat wrote...

rune is only  5% chance, does not equal permanent stunlock. Besides, 2 paralyze runes means +5 dmg/hit less because you have no Grandmaster damage rune in that slot. So not the difference to the warrior is 16.6 dmg/hit? No matter how you look at it, if you include backstab in any form it's situational damage.

In exchange for the ability to stunlock something.  And yes, it kind of does equal permanent stunlock with the attack speeds we're talking here.  There's a very good chance of stunlocking even a revenent long enough to kill it.  Not 100% no, but good.

You're trading roughly 30 DPS off the end equation in order to be able to do that, and to make your DPS non-situational.

If you equip and stat a Rogue and warrior exactly the same the warrior will end up with a trivial amount more health and stamina, the Rogue with more skills, but the 11.6 damage/hit will still be there. It's NOT trivial, it's about 20-25% increase over what a rogue can achieve (before backstabs and bonuses and other talents). And the difference grows with each level.

A dual striking Rogue from the front will NOT do 127.6 DPS
autoattacking because he does not have those 11.6 dmg/hit, so the base
damage that you are applying 1.5 dps modifier to is lower, and you
cannot say that since you can apply a 1.95 as a Rogue SOME of the
time it is more damage (because the BASE damage is lower due to the
fixed bonuses, and you will not be applying 1.95 100% of the time -
sorry.

I didn't feel like doing the math, but if you're going to be like that, fine, the rogue would do AROUND 110 DPS during the initial phase until paralyze kicks in, and then be doing 140...whatever we said.

Against whites, this means that a warrior is going to do more DPS, against non-squishy yellows and oranges, the rogue will quickly outpace.  The rogue would quickly outpace the warrior ANYWAY in said situations, however, because the rogue should be able to easily grab a backstab position without worrying about paralyzing, unless you're doing a solo run.  In which case the ability to stealth, lay traps, etc. just makes rogues flat out better.

Attack rating buffs are irrelevant for a warrior OR Rogue that goes full dex/str (any combination is OK), they will hit 99%-100% of the time anyway, but it is relevant for a Cunning Rogue who will hit most of the time due to flanking and other bonuses, but not allways.

Kind of the point.  A cunning rogue can increase their base attack rating to over 120, blah blah blah hardly miss blah blah blah non-situationally.

Listen--I will concede that warriors are probably going to do better on whites, because, yes, they require less micromanaging.  You just point them at an enemy and say "GO".

However, a rogue's situational DPS is always going to be better than a Warrior's (unless the rogue isn't built for damage and the Warrior is benefiting from buffs the rogue isn't), and in boss fights you're going to be using situational DPS more often.

Now, maybe it's just me, but I don't really care what my DPS is against hurlocks and genlocks/the grunt versions of them.  I tend to care what my DPS is going to be against ArchDemons, High Dragons, Genlock Emissaries, Elite Ogres, etc.  And in that realm a Rogue is generally going to out DPS a warrior because they'll be positioned properly.

And their damage isn't even THAT situational depending on your party make up, your equipment, your tactics, etc.  With Coup De Grace and a properly prepared team, you can be backstabbing pretty much every enemy in the game without ever having to worry about moving around behind them, even without gm paralyze runes... or worry about the enemies ever being able to move long enough to pose a real threat.

Not to mention the utility of a rogue.

[jsachun]

Cunning or Strength I don't think it really matters, Cunning builds can use Lethality as Damage modifier & Strength Builds can use Deft Hands to make up for the lack of cunning for utilities. It really all boils down to whether you want armor penetration or armor rating. I'd prefer to go with armor rating as there are buffs like telekenetic weapons that give you the armor penetration that a strength build lacks.

[GEWill]

blademaster7 wrote...

^ There is also the song of courage which boosts attack, damage and crit chance for your entire party. No one ever takes that into account for some reason.

I prefer DW Rogues my self but not for DPS. I don't really care if it takes me 3 seconds to kill a mob instead of 4.

I like playing as a Rogue because of the utility you get through stealth, stuns and trap disarming.

In truth I am torn between the two. I absolutely love my dual weapon Rogue, but I am also loving my dual weapon Warrior. I liked the Rogue because I didn't need to have Leliana in the party to open chests, but at the same time it worked better from a romance point for that character to not have her in the team. My Warrior on the other hand is a female and I don't mind having Leliana since I am romancing Alistair.

Once I get around to playing a Dwarf I will have to decide which route to take.

I'm on the same page as you regarding DPS, I have never cared about that because in the end dead is dead, doesn't matter if it was 4 seconds or 6 seconds or even 10 for that matter or longer.

[Zem_]

krylo wrote...
Not to mention the utility of a rogue.

This to me is the deal-maker and the biggest thing I miss when playing anything other than a rogue: The ability to stay on my main character and LEAD without stumbling into traps or (because I pretty much know where they are now) having to stop and call up a companion to clear a trap or unlock a chest.  I'd like to try a DW warrior but I know I probably won't get far because having played the rogue, I'll be quickly bored with a character that does nothing else but damage regardless of which is actually on top in DPS.

[Masticetobbacco]

pffft who needs utility when dual wielding warriors can rape things in seconds. Rogue damage doesn't even compare.



The most common arguement I hear is that mages do more AOE damage. True, but who here that plays a mage (on normal difficulty +) actually uses their AOE abilities all the time. I find many people hesitate to use them to avoid hurting their teamates, and positioning and continously pausing the game is not what many people would rather be doing.



Dual sweep and Whirlwind have small AOE but do great damage and does not cause friendly fire

[krylo]

Masticetobbacco wrote...

pffft who needs utility when dual wielding warriors can rape things in seconds. Rogue damage doesn't even compare.

Did you even read anything in this thread?

Yes they do.

They come damn close at worst, and beat out DW Warriors at best.

[this isnt my name]

Whats a good sword combo (not starfang as its a 2h blade in my game)?

[Masticetobbacco]

krylo wrote...


Yes they do.

They come damn close at worst, and beat out DW Warriors at best.

pffft not really no. And even then you have to backstab like a **** to achieve maximum damage output, and still wear light armour.

[krylo]

Masticetobbacco wrote...

krylo wrote...


Yes they do.

They come damn close at worst, and beat out DW Warriors at best.

pffft not really no. And even then you have to backstab like a **** to achieve maximum damage output, and still wear light armour.

If you forgo backstabbing, turn on dual striking, and momentum, you'd do 110 DPS with a rogue.  That's only 17 non-situational DPS less than a warrior.  This is without backstabbing remember.  And with only assassin bonuses, not the song of courage, or duelist, or whatever else.

Further you can turn on pinpoint striking/turn off dual striking to get the 146 or whatever DPS without having to backstab for something like fifteen seconds.

FURTHER, you can make a str build instead of a cun build, and wear any type of armor you want.

Really, man, read the thread.

Close at worst, better at best.

Modifié par krylo, 12 mars 2010 - 09:50 .

[Moogliepie]

 The animations with a greatsword definitely look the coolest, especially on an Ogre. Also, it would look pretty silly killing the really HUGE beasts with a pair of daggers (even though daggers in this game are the size of short swords).

[jsachun]

this isnt my name wrote...

Whats a good sword combo (not starfang as its a 2h blade in my game)?

Best DW warrior sword combo is Starfang & Keening Blade. Your active talents damage becomes devasting. Not to mention 6 rune slots.

Check link below.

http://dragonage.wik...i/Keening_Blade

Other wise Imperial edge & keening blade is good too. Imperial edge gives you 2+ damage but no rune slots.

Modifié par jsachun, 13 mars 2010 - 07:06 .

[krylo]

He made starfang a 2hander already.

In which case it's probably keening + topsider's honor or imperial edge.  Maric's Blade maybe if he's got RtO.

Modifié par krylo, 12 mars 2010 - 10:04 .

[Riku of The Dark]

Dual-Wield Warrior + Momentum + Dual-Strike (or whatever that thing that lets u hit with both weapons at once is called) = Sorry Hawke, I know you can get to level 99, but I could still kick your ass.

[Eurypterid]

There's no need to dredge up a year old thread just to post a DA:O is better than DA2 remark..