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[TheUnusualSuspect]

Iz Stoik zI wrote...

@TheUnusualSuspect

If you're having that much trouble, then you're doing something very, very wrong. It's really not as hard as you make it sound. The main problem that most people have at first, and the problem you seem to be having, is getting a feel for when to Charge. It can't be used recklessly, and if you're using it improperly then you're going to get a poor opinion of the class quickly.

The Vanguard has arguably the highest learning curve of any class in the game, and it's not for everything. Don't give up yet, but even if you can't get the hang of it it doesn't mean that the Vanguard isn't viable.

And when played properly, the Vanguard is most certainly fun.

Am not giving up.  As I said, I will persist.

Most of my frustration is borne of dying due to the overly close quarters combat, which I've gotten myself into because I've gotten frustrated at sitting around doing jack at long range.  Biotic Charge is not what has often caused my death.  Yeah, I died a few times and figured it out pretty quick when/how/why to use it, and rarely died from using it since.  No, most of the times I've died is because I'm just sitting there popping off a few rounds because there's no viable charge target, getting bored with the squaddies carrying ALL the load, and decided to get in and do something risky, just to alleviate the boredom.

The other scenario that really had me tearing my hair out was that damn pyro around the corner on Garrus's recruitment mission.  That was just stupid.  The only way around that was to order Mordin (my squaddie) to his death.  Wait for flame-thrower to torch up Mordin, then jump around and shot-gun to the face.  There was simply no other viable way around that issue that I could find.  Running out and doing a charge just resulted in Shep standing there saying "No clear path" despite having charged over two of those barriers 10 seconds ago.

Mordin's recruitment mission was a breeze though, and that was fun.

I guess all I'm saying is that there are certain scenarios where the Vanguard is decidedly not fun, and I had just gotten off from finishing what was my least fun experience in the game, ever, when I wrote that post.

Yeah, the learning curve is high, but I don't think that's the issue so much as the issue is that the class simply has no solution for various situations, and accepting that is probably what is the biggest stumbling block so far.

[Iz Stoik zI]

@TheUnusualSuspect



Every class has a solution for every problem. Yeah, that pyro around the corner sucks and he's killed me a lot too, but he also gave my soldier and my sentinel trouble as well.



Like I said, playing a vanguard is all about learning how and when to charge. For example, chafing out into the open, even against a single enemy, is a bad idea. Charge an enemy that is where you WANT to be, such as a cover spot from where you can set up your next charge. Also remember that charge is a defensive tool as much as it is an offensive tool; If your shields are down and you're dying, quickl find an enemy near cover and charge. And so on.



Believe me, no class clears a room as fast as a properly played vanguard. I'm not great at explaining things, but thisisme8's sticky at the top of the forum is extremely helpful. It convinced me to try a vanguard again, and I haven't looked back since.

[Locoluke]

Actually, I found out how to beat that annoying pyro: if you charge the rear-most enemy as soon as you can, the pyro won't be waiting for you there. Apparently he spawns a bit back from there, then moves up to camp the corner while you try to pick off the others in front of him.

[kefka004]

I'm sure the biggest mistake a lot of first time Vanguards make is not making liberal use of the pause button. I know when I saw RamsenC and sinosleep's vids I got really excited about the class and just started charging the first guy I saw in every fight. Then I realized that they know the layout of the area and can get away with that kind of aggression, and I needed to take a step back from time to time in order to analyze my position and plan ahead a bit. Far too many times I'd pound that charge hotkey and completely eviscerate my victim only to find myself in a losing position going, "Oh crap, now what?" Then I'd either die in a blaze of glory or get lucky enough to have my cooldown finish with a sliver of health left forcing me to repeat the process.



To remedy this, I came up with a few rules for myself regarding the what/where/why aspect of charge:

1. Pause before and after every charge, and look at the damned radar! It's there for a reason you idiot!

2. Do I have an out i.e. a cover spot that will allow me to cool down?

3. Can I take out the enemy(ies) I'm charging in 1 or 2 shots and some melee attacks? For example, 2 Blue Suns Troopers are no problem. 1 Legionnaire, doable. 1 Legionnaire and 1 Trooper, doable if I can get an overload on the Legionnaire. Blue Suns Commander, lol Critical Mission Failure. The less time I'm exposed, the higher the chances of success.

4. If this attack succeeds, where do I launch my next attack? And the attack after that? Always plan ahead at least two charges.



These simple rules got me through the hardest(imo) part of the game for the Vanguard which is pre-Horizon with minimal deaths and minimal frustration. Once I had access to the Scimitar and Inferno Ammo, I could handle situations that I had no chance of getting out of alive with my low level Vanguard. So don't get discouraged. Just slow it down a bit and keep at it. The game gets a lot more fun when you have more toys to play with.

[TheUnusualSuspect]

Aye, thanks for the advice guys. Been playing more, and it's been fine. I just had a rough time of it with the Garrus mission, and thinking back on it, I think it was also due to poor partner choice. I took Mordin (good) and Zaeed (bad). Had I replaced Zaeed with Miranda, it would've been much better.



That's pretty much what it comes down to, being defence stripping quickly, so you can use pull/shockwave to incapacitate 1 guy while you charge the other of a pair, duck, and then charge the third, and then mop up the guy who's now picking himself off the ground.



What also helped was getting a better ryhthm going with the shot/melee thing. Blast them, knock 'em off balance, and that seems to cover the cooldown between shots on the eviscerator better. Before I was just pounding either the melee or the shotty, and the cooldowns is what was biting me.



After a few more upgrades it's getting easier too, as I originally forecast. Starting Insanity with a Vanguard-class that I've never played before in the pre-Horizon stage really is throwing oneself in at the deep end.

[DrakePowers51]

I am definately on the wrong board in this crowd but I want to share another perspective. 1st as my board name imply's I was born in 1951 so yep I am 58 and have been gameing since I first hooked up my apple 2 c. LOL Played maybe 80 percent of the mmo titles ever released ( hope these folks make Knights of the Old Republic as well as they have made DA and Mass effect 2). I avoided shooters like the plague. I am not guick enough in my mind to play them. I hate haveing to micro manage every team mate and myself and the real sin here is I don't play past casual seting. Snicker away I desrve it. That said I have never enjoyed a game more then these two titles. I simply can not stop playing Mass effect 2. If it's 4 am est I'll be on playing untill midnight that night. I have classes that don't fit me very well but I'll try them all at some point-- of course I have to break now and go play awakening on tuesday. But in my heart I'll be missing mass effect 2. And it has a shooter element so I was shocked and pleasantly suprised to find that to be the fact. I had a steep learing curve and restarted several times. So far I have played the soldier and the infiltrator all the way through. The only thing I dislike was having to save and reload 250 times to run up paragon or renegade points to be able to deal with the disention on the teams. I wish more points were available on a regular play through to be able to do that, I disliked haveing to make that mana pot run for 6 hours to make cash in DA as well. But the story line here and the characters here seem much more interesting and animanted with the exception of Ogrehn in DA.

I love this game, good job making one that even an old man can really enjoy playing.

--I loved them both with maybe a slight edge going to the soldier using the revenant both in terminus armor

Lastly I am in awe of all of you who can do this on insanity - well done all of you. may you all be able to game into your old age

peace

[Memnon]

I had some of the same issues as TheUnusualSuspect when I played through Vanguard on Insanity - I think part of it was simple impatience, and another part was that I wasn't really used to that kind of play style. I played through Insanity with Sentinel, then Infiltrator, then Vanguard, so it was a bit of a shock getting used to a new style of play. I actually hated it for the first few missions, but after I got comfortable with him, I loved the Vanguard



You can say this about any Insanity mission, but it seems to apply more for Vanguard - choosing your companions is critical. It seems to me that certain missions are exceptionally difficult for certain classes - for my Vanguard, I got my arse handed to me on Horizon and during Garrus' recruitment mission; yet for my Engineer, I didn't die once in Horizon, nor during the vents. The derelict Reaper fight (first on on the platforms) was an absolute bear for every class except my Infiltrator and his Widow ... a lot of it - at least for me - is trial and error, and with the Vanguard, the margin for error is quite small

[TheUnusualSuspect]

Welcome DrakePower51. Don't worry, you're not alone in the grey-beard status. 58 isn't that old though. One of my motorcycling mates is 59 this year, and he still rides his sports bikes on the road and the racetrack at a pace that embarasses many younger folk, and I even see the odd >70yo lapping it up at the track and not going slow either. When it comes to getting older, it's a case of use it or lose it, and it's great to hear about you keeping your gaming skills sharp.



@Stornskar, I agree. With Vanguard the squadmate selection is very important. I'd just finished playing Engineer before this, and with the Engineer I could've chosen any Squadmate and made it work. I feel that you're right in the trial and error, and very small margin of error. I guess the best way that I can explain it is that I tend to prefer RTS games, and the feeling of battlefield control that I get from an Engineer suits my personal style way better than something like a Vanguard. Yeah, I can do a shooter-style gameplay pretty well though. I started gaming in '78, played network deathmatch Doom when it first game out in '93, and while no legend in Doom/Quake/UT, in lan party games I was always near/at the top, but even then, shooter games really aren't my thing if only because I've been playing them too long.



I do prefer the strategy element to games, and I guess it just annoys me (probably a little too much) when I need meta-game information to successfully complete a mission (ie. do not charge there 'cos guys will pop out, or DO charge there 'cos flamethrower guy won't be there yet...).



It's cool, post-Horizon with the Vanguard is breezy now. Thanks for listening guys.

[congokurtz]

Great post. I am glad to see that there are other players as obsessed with this game as me.



I tend to agree with the OP ranking. I think I had a bit more fun with my engineer, but that was due mostly to taking dominate as a bonus power (Pyro+Dominate=awesome). I am also glad to see others had to turn down the difficulty on Horizon. That place can be really rough on insanity.



I agree with most people here that the vanguard's fun factor is amazing. My first play through was a vanguard on veteran. Then I played a second one on insanity because the thrill charge gives you is just that cool.

[Renshai1177]

So I have been toying with the three classes which I said I would and I need to amend my fun rating for the vaguard, its more like a 12. I switched from the eviscerator to the rapid fire 8 shot gun (name escapes me) and it's like a whole new game. The hours have been melting away again. Inferno ammo works nicely and as long as you line-of-sight enemies w/ the one you are killing it makes you much more survivable than I had originally thought.

[RamsenC]

kefka004 wrote...

1. Pause before and after every charge, and look at the damned radar! It's there for a reason you idiot!
.

This is good advice, the radar is invaluable when you aren't familiar with the area you are in or you lost track of an enemy. A lot of people think you need to memorize an encounter to do well with the Vanguard, but with the radar you can beat any encounter your first time through. 

[OneBadAssMother]

^ ?!?! I just go drunk and charge in whereever whenever. And if I die, I just reload and charge someone else instead lol! It's rather interesting playing through the battle with the heartbeat sound.



But I guess after playing through the game a few times you tend to know where to charge by instinct so that's the advantage of vets.

[Sentinel168]

I'm working on my second playthrough and I can say this.

I first went through as a Sentinel on Hardcore and then tried vanguard.  That was a big change in how you can take hits.

I haven't tried insanity yet as I think I like veteran the best as its a little more challenging than normal but you can still use any power if you want to.

On topic I would agree with the original assessments of the classes.  Maybe an 8 in the sentinel viability due to overlaod and warp.

[Akinra]

kefka004 wrote...
To remedy this, I came up with a few rules for myself regarding the what/where/why aspect of charge:
1. Pause before and after every charge, and look at the damned radar! It's there for a reason you idiot!
2. Do I have an out i.e. a cover spot that will allow me to cool down?
3. Can I take out the enemy(ies) I'm charging in 1 or 2 shots and some melee attacks? For example, 2 Blue Suns Troopers are no problem. 1 Legionnaire, doable. 1 Legionnaire and 1 Trooper, doable if I can get an overload on the Legionnaire. Blue Suns Commander, lol Critical Mission Failure. The less time I'm exposed, the higher the chances of success.
4. If this attack succeeds, where do I launch my next attack? And the attack after that? Always plan ahead at least two charges.
.

This is excellent advice for first time vanguards. I would also add that if an enemy has more than 1 defense up, don't charge.

I've played adept, infiltrator, soldier and vanguard so far. I think I would probably agree with the OPs ratings (for these 4 at least), except I would rate the vanguards viability on insanity as a 9. When played right I found the vanguard to be not only the  most enjoyable but also the easiest. I would agree as well that the soldier lacked character. It's a well built class without any real weaknesses but it just lacked something for me.

[TheUnusualSuspect]

Well, finally completed my Insanity run with the Vanguard.  Full time job + family only means a few hours a day to play the game.

Revising my earlier ranking of Vanguard:

Fun: 6  Viability: 7

There were a few maps where you could charge about like a madman, laying waste to all in your path, and standing up to a Scion, or Harbinger, or a Geth Prime, and shot/meleeing them while charging to regen the shields was ok, but tbh, I'm not really a fan of close quarters combat.  The Haestrom map is a Vanguard's delight, as are many of the Collector maps, but maps of that nature where a Vanguard can dominate were few and far between.  Most often it always ended up as whittling down enemies without an assault rifle or powers, and a heavy reliance on the squad mates to do that job well.

Most times selective charging worked well, but on occasion you're stll left with an opponent you thought was left behind only to have him cross the map and target you and only you while your squadmates were closest to him.  I guess the game's AI of targetting ONLY Shepard if Shep's not behind cover is the issue.  If it were not for that AI element, Vanguard would be a lot more viable and fun.

The brief moments of up close and intense combat was not possible often enough to feel like a Vanguard was all that effective.  Could it clear maps quickly?  Some, yes, amazingly so.  Others, no, and more slowly than other classes.  The very short Pull cooldown was what I found to be most effective against opponents when charging wasn't possible, as a means of crowd control.

In short, limited offensive powers, and with a single great offensive power that can't be used very often didn't really do it for me.

Just my 2c though.  Everyone's different and enjoys different gaming experiences.

[sc1974]

OK, kefka, you helped me out once. Now i'm at the very end of the game with the human reaper. This thing has like 9 million HP, and Collectors are constantly flying in (way more than I remember on normal or veteran). After emptying all my heavy weapon ammo into this thuing, it's not even half dead. My Revenant might as well shoot spitballs for all the damage it does, and Mordin and Miranda seem to get taken out quickly, and I've used up all my medigel by this point. After the first couple of waves of Collectors, Harbinger starts showing up again and making life miserable with the flanking maneuver/ black ball of death BS. There's not really any place to fall back to, and I can't take out the Reaper quickly enough for it to be a non-issue. Any thoughts?

[TheUnusualSuspect]

sc1974 wrote...

OK, kefka, you helped me out once. Now i'm at the very end of the game with the human reaper. This thing has like 9 million HP, and Collectors are constantly flying in (way more than I remember on normal or veteran). After emptying all my heavy weapon ammo into this thuing, it's not even half dead. My Revenant might as well shoot spitballs for all the damage it does, and Mordin and Miranda seem to get taken out quickly, and I've used up all my medigel by this point. After the first couple of waves of Collectors, Harbinger starts showing up again and making life miserable with the flanking maneuver/ black ball of death BS. There's not really any place to fall back to, and I can't take out the Reaper quickly enough for it to be a non-issue. Any thoughts?

#1 Manually order Miranda and Mordin into that tall central cover where the Reaper's blast won't wipe them.
#2 Hotkey and use Mordin's Incinerate and Miranda's Warp on the Reaper's weak spots (eyes, chest)
#3 When Harbinger comes, throw everything at it, which means hotkeyed Incinerate + Warp + sniper head shots.  With practise and concentrated effort, you'll drop Harbinger in about 6-10 secs.  Mop up any remaining collectors first, before refocusing on the Reaper
#4 With Revenant, I'm assuming you're a soldier.  Whip out the Viper sniper rifle, put on Incendiary Ammo, and start popping the Reaper in the eyes as fast as possible by tapping the mouse key to fire more quickly
#5 When low on ammo, there a special ammo pickup thing just in front on the tall central cover, on the platform to the right.  It will give you full ammo, inclusing heavy weapon ammo.  It's like a super power-cell pickup.  Get it when the Reaper drops away for a moment, and get back to cover pronto.

Basically you need your team-mates and their damage powers, so keep them alive by ordering them into cover, and it'll go easy enough for you.

Also, remember that the Reaper doesn't really shoot much, aside from its blast, so feel free to stand out of cover and popping it in the eyes with powers and sniper rifle (Viper).  Forget the Revenant, save that for Harby/Collectors.  When you hear the Reaper's power burst about to go off, get behind cover, and as soon as it passes, back out and start popping it in the eyes.

Modifié par TheUnusualSuspect, 18 mars 2010 - 09:35 .

[shepard1119]

Engineer is soooo boring to me. You get no weapon training and no cool combos like the adept (which is the best class.) I liked it in the first game because overload and neural shock was an awesome combo, but now I find the class very dull. Adpet on the over hand has alot of cool combos like Pull+Heavy Warp,Singularity+Heavy Warp,Singularity+Shockwave, and one nobody cositers,Singularity+Throw Field.) I hate to pick on the engineer, but ive tryed it and didnt like it. What class should i try next? http://social.biowar...8/index/1783607    If the link does work, copt and paste to the adress bar.

Engineer-Fun/3, Viability/8

Adept-Fun/10, Viability/8.5

Modifié par shepard1119, 18 mars 2010 - 09:49 .

[MyChemicalBromance]

I've only done Sentinel and Infiltrator, I think my last one before ME3 will be Adept.



Sentinel: I think this was a good starting class since I was able to take down all defenses by myself. This likely kept me from getting as pissed at the new changes as other people. The play style is somewhat slow when you have control though. This could be a result of me spamming tech armor however and having long recharge times.

7/10 Fun 8/10 Viability



Infiltrator: BOOOORIIING. The unlimited slow down time makes this class way too easy to enjoy. As if that weren't bad enough, adding incinerate makes sure I'll never be rushed. I started enjoying it once I got the Viper, simply because I'd run out of slow down before they were dead, but still not as fun as Sentinel.



4/10 Fun 10/10 Viability

[jakenou]

I haven't played a Vanguard in ME2 yet, but certainly will, hopefully many times over (along with all the other classes) - but I've been hearing so much positive feedback about Vanguard in ME2, way more than I had for ME1. Granted, it's been awhile since I looked at or participated in discussions about ME1 classes and such. In any event, Vanguard seems to really stand out and shine in ME2, and I can't wait to hit it. It will probably be my next game, even though I had plans for another Infiltrator playthrough next. Hmmm.

Infiltrator has thus far been my favorite ME2 class though, and after all these discussions about classes, I'm seeing an interesting correlation between Infiltrator and Vanguard - and that is proximity combat. This kind of goes along with how the OP played successive games in the Infiltrator style after having played Infiltrator first (although in the OP's case, the next class was Soldier). And it might seem that Infiltrator is in fact the opposite class to Vanguard when it comes to proximity fighting, being that Infiltrators are ranged sniper experts and Vanguards are built to charge into the heat of things with a shotgun. But the Infiltrator's cloak is what brings them into the realm of the Vanguard's close-range fighting. Cloak and charge have virtually the same effect if the Infiltrator is using cloak to do just that - infiltrate, and into close range. They both give the element of surprise and undetected approach, as well as extra damage dealt in the process. Gotta love it, and I'm thinking one is good practice for the other as long as the other class differences are accounted for and adapted.

Just a thought.

[kefka004]

sc1974 wrote...

OK, kefka, you helped me out once. Now i'm at the very end of the game with the human reaper. This thing has like 9 million HP, and Collectors are constantly flying in (way more than I remember on normal or veteran). After emptying all my heavy weapon ammo into this thuing, it's not even half dead. My Revenant might as well shoot spitballs for all the damage it does, and Mordin and Miranda seem to get taken out quickly, and I've used up all my medigel by this point. After the first couple of waves of Collectors, Harbinger starts showing up again and making life miserable with the flanking maneuver/ black ball of death BS. There's not really any place to fall back to, and I can't take out the Reaper quickly enough for it to be a non-issue. Any thoughts?

I'll just go ahead and second TheUsualSuspect's advice and add that the reaper will actually kill all of the collectors including Harbinger if they are in his line of fire.  Just make sure you have a good angle i.e. facing the reaper with the Collectors caught in the middle.  Basically, just ignore them.  Also, every time Harbinger dies, he'll drop Heavy Weapon Ammo.  If the fight lasts long enough you can actually get off two shots from the Cain, which will probably put the Reaper near death.  It really shouldn't last that long though.  If you can get one good direct hit with the Cain and your aim with the Viper is good, you can actually finish the fight before any Collectors show up.

[TheUnusualSuspect]

Well, am about half-way through an Insanity playthrough with the Sentinel. I am playing my Sentinel as a "caster", rather than as a CQC assault style, with minimised cooldowns (Guardian), maximised power damage (Blood Dragon Armor, Power Armor), and Heavy Warp, Overload (6), and Reave.



Fun: 8, Viability: 10



First thing I noticed, is that a Sentinel actually gets faster power cooldowns than either an Engineer or an Adept with their dedicated focus. That seems a bit odd to me. I can spam "Push" super-fast, and Warp with the fast cooldowns and power bonuses just minces things. Coupled with Samara (or Mordin pre-Samara recruit) and Miranda, and every mission has been easy. Only seem to use a gun more as an afterthought. Once I get Area Reave going, the build will mince things.



It's odd, but in some respect when using this style of build, that the Sentinel makes for a better assault biotic than the Adept does, if only because the Sentinel can stand up and throw out stuff without the barrier/shields crashing in 2 hits.



IMO, that's what the Adept needs, is an option for stronger barriers as part of its base class make-up, and faster cool-downs. It's like BioWare got the Adept and Sentinel cool-down bonuses the wrong way around.