205 réponses à ce sujet

[ejikvkaske]

Nhadalie wrote...

Technically speaking, the Chantry did not exist when Andraste was around. It came forth after her death, and was started by her disciples. What necessarily was true during Andraste's time is not necessarily what the Chantry is teaching in Origins. Think about the game telephone. Each time something is spread by person to person, the original message changes. Sometimes it changes drastically, sometimes it only changes a little. With a larger amount of time for something to change, it will change further.

This is the most insightful thing I've seen in this thread.

I'm not sure if most of you realise the fact that the Chantry has little or no connection to Andraste herself or any of her contemporary diciples. The Chantry was created long after Andraste's death by people with no real relation to her. Hell, the Chantry did not even know where Andraste's Ashes were located.

Thus the Chantry's teachings are simply an interpretation of Andraste's ideas, altered enough to serve the purposes of the Chantry's real creators. That's where the Chant of Light, the self-imposed responsibility of policing the mages, the Exalted Marches, and pretty much everything else we know about the Chantry comes from.

Andraste was special. I'm not sure about the whole Bride of the Maker business, but her Ashes do cure everything. The Chantry however is a self-serving organization completely independent from Andraste. This is definitely a parallel Bioware draws with the realtionship between Jesus and the Church. You know what they say, religion is the opiate of the people.

[Mlai00]

LOL "freedom tax". That sounds like something from a satirical comedy.

Asians don't need to be pissed off, and they aren't. That's because they've pretty much risen beyond it all. China is now a world power. Japan has been an economic power since after WW2. Asians in the US are well off enough that they straight up don't qualify for affirmative action benefits.

I just think you don't need to project so much emotion onto a fictional world, as if you're personally offended when ppl don't cry for the Dalish.

[AntiChri5]

ejikvkaske wrote...

Nhadalie wrote...

Technically speaking, the Chantry did not exist when Andraste was around. It came forth after her death, and was started by her disciples. What necessarily was true during Andraste's time is not necessarily what the Chantry is teaching in Origins. Think about the game telephone. Each time something is spread by person to person, the original message changes. Sometimes it changes drastically, sometimes it only changes a little. With a larger amount of time for something to change, it will change further.

This is the most insightful thing I've seen in this thread.

I'm not sure if most of you realise the fact that the Chantry has little or no connection to Andraste herself or any of her contemporary diciples. The Chantry was created long after Andraste's death by people with no real relation to her. Hell, the Chantry did not even know where Andraste's Ashes were located.

Thus the Chantry's teachings are simply an interpretation of Andraste's ideas, altered enough to serve the purposes of the Chantry's real creators. That's where the Chant of Light, the self-imposed responsibility of policing the mages, the Exalted Marches, and pretty much everything else we know about the Chantry comes from.

Andraste was special. I'm not sure about the whole Bride of the Maker business, but her Ashes do cure everything. The Chantry however is a self-serving organization completely independent from Andraste. This is definitely a parallel Bioware draws with the realtionship between Jesus and the Church. You know what they say, religion is the opiate of the people.

Yes the Chantry was created by the first emperor of Orleis as a way to justify his conquests. Which gives us the holy Orlesian Empire.

Modifié par AntiChri5, 13 mars 2010 - 09:00 .

[Angel of Nessus]

NOTE: I'm classifying myself as a relatively open minded Unitarian, just so you know where I'm coming from.



There is no right or wrong in the game- just perceptions of them. The same is true in IRL.



The chantry is an example of a good cause being used for darker purposes. That said, that doesn't mean that what the faithful of the Chantry believe is untrue; perhaps twisted in self serving ways by those in power, but still accurate at the heart of the matter.



Exalted March: terrible idea. Crazed zealotry at it's finest; HAY GUISE, LETS FORCE THESE GUISE TO WURSHIP OUR GOD CUZ THEYRE WRONG.



How are they wrong, exactly? What makes their claims of faith any less valid than your own?



CUS THE CHANT TELLS ME THAT IT IS.



You realize that the chant was written by PEOPLE, right? It's not verbatum divine will.



BUT IT SAYS IT IS.



... I see logic is wasted on you. 5 minutes of my life, poof. I'm going to go get drunk.



This is the cause for a lot of religious and semi-religious conflicts in the past; Ex: the long and muddy history between Christianity and Islam, despite the fact that both faiths hold nearly identical moral and historical beliefs and are devoted to the same Divine entity (only real difference is the name). As long as those relatively insignificant differences exist, however, there will always be people who take it too far, out of zealotry, arrogance, greed, or all of the above. In DO:A, the Marches and the control of the Circle are both fantastic examples of what happens when faith gets out of hand. Good intentions, but lacking any real insight.



Overall, the Chanty is neither right nor wrong- if it must be classified anywhere on the scale, it would be riding the fence.

[kingthrall]

I dont think you should compare the chantry to Real life religion. They are not the same thing however close you may think they are.



I do not belive in god, but Catholic and Christian history is a part of world society regardles of their actions. Do not make rash assumptions about how corrupt religion is and how it makes all conflicts of the world.



Most religions taught us basic human rights, reading, writing and kept history recorded away. Not everyone had such privilages that you take for granted today. I could also go on to tell you that religion played a major role in wars and society. Early on it was mostly the power of the churches however later on that Royalty from the Dukes and Barons gathered their men to support the king. You had no choice in the matter and it kept society going as a whole.



It is insulting to see little brats think that religion is some big bad cult and not understand that it pretty much guided humankind still to this day, to understand basic human understanding of each other.

[Dethanos]

kingthrall wrote...

I dont think you should compare the chantry to Real life religion. They are not the same thing however close you may think they are.

If they were the same thing, there wouldn't be much point in comparing them. The religion of DA was obviously influenced by real life religion, just like many of the nations in DA were influenced by real life history. I don't see any reason why you wouldn't make a comparison.

kingthrall wrote...
I do not belive in god, but Catholic and Christian history is a part of world society regardles of their actions. Do not make rash assumptions about how corrupt religion is and how it makes all conflicts of the world.

How would that be a rash assumption? We have centuries of history filled with examples of religion being used for corrupt purposes. Humanity has seen countless wars where the belligerents used religion to justify or glorify their actions.

kingthrall wrote...
Most religions taught us basic human rights, reading, writing and kept history recorded away. Not everyone had such privilages that you take for granted today.

Religion taught us human rights? What? How could you possibly come to that conclusion? What role did religion play in teaching us human rights? What makes civil liberty an even remotely religious concept?

kingthrall wrote...
It is insulting to see little brats think that religion is some big bad cult and not understand that it pretty much guided humankind still to this day, to understand basic human understanding of each other.

The only thing insulting here is your post.

Religion has played a huge role in the development human civilization, but I think the question of whether the costs outweigh the benefits is open for discussion and debate. If you don't like what others have to say on the subject, refute it or ignore it. Don't sit there insulting them and tellling them they shouldn't be expressing their opinions.

Modifié par Dethanos, 13 mars 2010 - 03:22 .

[this isnt my name]

Angel of Nessus wrote...

NOTE: I'm classifying myself as a relatively open minded Unitarian, just so you know where I'm coming from.

There is no right or wrong in the game- just perceptions of them. The same is true in IRL.

The chantry is an example of a good cause being used for darker purposes. That said, that doesn't mean that what the faithful of the Chantry believe is untrue; perhaps twisted in self serving ways by those in power, but still accurate at the heart of the matter.

Exalted March: terrible idea. Crazed zealotry at it's finest; HAY GUISE, LETS FORCE THESE GUISE TO WURSHIP OUR GOD CUZ THEYRE WRONG.

How are they wrong, exactly? What makes their claims of faith any less valid than your own?

CUS THE CHANT TELLS ME THAT IT IS.

You realize that the chant was written by PEOPLE, right? It's not verbatum divine will.

BUT IT SAYS IT IS.

... I see logic is wasted on you. 5 minutes of my life, poof. I'm going to go get drunk.

This is the cause for a lot of religious and semi-religious conflicts in the past; Ex: the long and muddy history between Christianity and Islam, despite the fact that both faiths hold nearly identical moral and historical beliefs and are devoted to the same Divine entity (only real difference is the name). As long as those relatively insignificant differences exist, however, there will always be people who take it too far, out of zealotry, arrogance, greed, or all of the above. In DO:A, the Marches and the control of the Circle are both fantastic examples of what happens when faith gets out of hand. Good intentions, but lacking any real insight.

Overall, the Chanty is neither right nor wrong- if it must be classified anywhere on the scale, it would be riding the fence.

I disagree about all the exhaulted marches being bad, sure they will do it and do it for religion but isnt there already religious oppresion with the dwarves if you help the chantry, so in that case to me its overthrowing dictatorship, I hope I must choose who to side with in DA2, even though I will 99% of the time side with the chantry.
As for religion IRL it has helped, look at the 10 commandments, that seems like a good few laws to help society, then you have the morality of christianity that because they go on about forgivness we have things like free speech, so to me, it has served us well and weighs out the cons, however it can and has been hijacked and led to bad things, but the pros still out weigh the cons imo, even if religion is a tool to control people it still helps develop civilised society.

Modifié par this isnt my name, 13 mars 2010 - 03:52 .

[Blackbaron15]

Hes questioning the chantry? EXALTED MARCH EXALTED MARCH!!!

but in seriousness ya its true I really hate how the chantry oppresses the mages to the point that they actually try blood magic just for a chance to escape.

[Mlai00]

I disagree about all the exhaulted marches being bad, sure they will do it and do it for religion but isnt there already religious oppresion with the dwarves if you help the chantry, so in that case to me its overthrowing dictatorship,

You've got to be joking.

So the Chantry just waltzes in to the heart of dwarven civilization, "Hey guise I know you've worshipped your ancestors since the dwarven stone age (lol), that it's a pillar of your entire society philosophy and culture, but now it's time you throw that away for no good reason, and worship the human god! Eat our hamburgers and freedom fries while you're at it!"

So naturally this causes a bit of social unrest and some ppl die. To maintain order, the dwarven rulership puts restrictions on the cause of the unrest.

And just like IRL, that gives the European err Thedas human nations the perfect excuse to declare war, invade, plunder, and send in hundreds of missionaries to burn all dwarven books. Job well done, the heathens are saved.

[this isnt my name]

Mlai00 wrote...

I disagree about all the exhaulted marches being bad, sure they will do it and do it for religion but isnt there already religious oppresion with the dwarves if you help the chantry, so in that case to me its overthrowing dictatorship,

You've got to be joking.
So the Chantry just waltzes in to the heart of dwarven civilization, "Hey guise I know you've worshipped your ancestors since the dwarven stone age (lol), that it's a pillar of your entire society philosophy and culture, but now it's time you throw that away for no good reason, and worship the human god! Eat our hamburgers and freedom fries while you're at it!"
So naturally this causes a bit of social unrest and some ppl die. To maintain order, the dwarven rulership puts restrictions on the cause of the unrest.
And just like IRL, that gives the European err Thedas human nations the perfect excuse to declare war, invade, plunder, and send in hundreds of missionaries to burn all dwarven books. Job well done, the heathens are saved.

Dwarves chose to convert to the chantry, their leaders are trying to stop them, to me that is a dictatorship, the chantry has a right to invade if its people are being opressed. So what if they chose to worship that way for 1000s of years, dose that mean people should not be able to choose what to worship ? No if the dwarves are opressing theose who choose differently they deserve it.

[Nauthiz84]

this isnt my name wrote...

Mlai00 wrote...

I disagree about all the exhaulted marches being bad, sure they will do it and do it for religion but isnt there already religious oppresion with the dwarves if you help the chantry, so in that case to me its overthrowing dictatorship,

You've got to be joking.
So the Chantry just waltzes in to the heart of dwarven civilization, "Hey guise I know you've worshipped your ancestors since the dwarven stone age (lol), that it's a pillar of your entire society philosophy and culture, but now it's time you throw that away for no good reason, and worship the human god! Eat our hamburgers and freedom fries while you're at it!"
So naturally this causes a bit of social unrest and some ppl die. To maintain order, the dwarven rulership puts restrictions on the cause of the unrest.
And just like IRL, that gives the European err Thedas human nations the perfect excuse to declare war, invade, plunder, and send in hundreds of missionaries to burn all dwarven books. Job well done, the heathens are saved.

Dwarves chose to convert to the chantry, their leaders are trying to stop them, to me that is a dictatorship, the chantry has a right to invade if its people are being opressed. So what if they chose to worship that way for 1000s of years, dose that mean people should not be able to choose what to worship ? No if the dwarves are opressing theose who choose differently they deserve it.

There is no such thing as a right to invade, that's crazy seriously. You are aware that with your way of arguing you basically justify any form of terrorism. This is a seriously difficult and complex matter that can never be reduced to a statement that simple. So, you invade and free the opressed minority by opressing the majority, great idea, there are a lot of rl examples that could show you how well that works and how happy that makes everyone... 

[this isnt my name]

Nauthiz84 wrote...

this isnt my name wrote...

Mlai00 wrote...

I disagree about all the exhaulted marches being bad, sure they will do it and do it for religion but isnt there already religious oppresion with the dwarves if you help the chantry, so in that case to me its overthrowing dictatorship,

You've got to be joking.
So the Chantry just waltzes in to the heart of dwarven civilization, "Hey guise I know you've worshipped your ancestors since the dwarven stone age (lol), that it's a pillar of your entire society philosophy and culture, but now it's time you throw that away for no good reason, and worship the human god! Eat our hamburgers and freedom fries while you're at it!"
So naturally this causes a bit of social unrest and some ppl die. To maintain order, the dwarven rulership puts restrictions on the cause of the unrest.
And just like IRL, that gives the European err Thedas human nations the perfect excuse to declare war, invade, plunder, and send in hundreds of missionaries to burn all dwarven books. Job well done, the heathens are saved.

Dwarves chose to convert to the chantry, their leaders are trying to stop them, to me that is a dictatorship, the chantry has a right to invade if its people are being opressed. So what if they chose to worship that way for 1000s of years, dose that mean people should not be able to choose what to worship ? No if the dwarves are opressing theose who choose differently they deserve it.

There is no such thing as a right to invade, that's crazy seriously. You are aware that with your way of arguing you basically justify any form of terrorism. This is a seriously difficult and complex matter that can never be reduced to a statement that simple. So, you invade and free the opressed minority by opressing the majority, great idea, there are a lot of rl examples that could show you how well that works and how happy that makes everyone... 

If people are being opressed by violence there is usually no peaceful way out, as the other side has ignored the peaceful route completely, why should those who chose the chantry be forced to choose what the others want, they could have negotiated, but no it seems that they chose violence, hell I doubt people would complian if someone stopped mugabi in zimbabwe, either way people are going to be hurt might aswell be the bully and not the victim. If you leave the dwarves then the dwarves will be in a civil war and one side wiped out, atleast if the channtry are involved it minimizes the loss of people who are the victims, lets face it the dwarves in the chantry didnt start the violence the dwarves who didnt like the chantry did.

[Nauthiz84]

this isnt my name wrote...

...

If people are being opressed by violence there is usually no peaceful way out, as the other side has ignored the peaceful route completely, why should those who chose the chantry be forced to choose what the others want, they could have negotiated, but no it seems that they chose violence, hell I doubt people would complian if someone stopped mugabi in zimbabwe, either way people are going to be hurt might aswell be the bully and not the victim. If you leave the dwarves then the dwarves will be in a civil war and one side wiped out, atleast if the channtry are involved it minimizes the loss of people who are the victims, lets face it the dwarves in the chantry didnt start the violence the dwarves who didnt like the chantry did.

Involving a third party won't solve anything, all you'll get is a chain of agression, hatred and opression that will keep on smoldering, with the typical regular outbreaks of open violence. It is dwarven buissness so let the dwarves solve it, nothing wrong with offering shelter and support for the believers deciding to leave orzamar to lead a better life. The dwarves can't afford an civil war with a lot of victims because they have the darkspawns comming for them. If there is an open revolt the faction leaders have not much choices, they either adapt their way of thinking and come to an conclusion all parties can live with or orzammar will fall. You'll get a clean end that way, one way or another. No need for the chantry to invade beside the selfish intrests of the chantry, like lets say direct access to lyrium for example. Beside i can't see how involving the chantry reduces the dwarven victims. Well not like the chantry would go there to help the poor dwarven believers they are after the oil ähhhh the lyrium i mean :innocent:

Modifié par Nauthiz84, 13 mars 2010 - 06:47 .

[Archereon]

The hilarious thing about this debate is how close it is to real world religious debates in the amount of failure.



The Chantry is infinitely better than both the Medieval Church and the modern Christian Church because IT is actually founded on some semblance of logical reasoning.



Real life Church: Lolz weh dontz noe wear teh wolred comez fromm, soe Goed diid itz!1!11!!!



Chantry: So...the black city...And the darkspawn...What's up with them...



We know that all the spirits of the fade avoid the black city like the plague, and we know the darkspawn popped up shortly after a bunch of Tevintar mages tried to teleport themselves to it...So its a reasonable theory that the two things are related...(Now this is where the Chantry descends into typical religious stupidity, but at least its a lot later than any real religion) Oh, and there was this lady named Andraste who lead this rebellion against the Tevintar in the name of some god called the Maker...The Tevintar should of obliterated her rebellion, but couldn't because of a series of overly fortuitous natural disasters, so we're going to hypothesize that x+y=z

[grieferbastard]

this isnt my name wrote...

If people are being opressed by violence there is usually no peaceful way out, as the other side has ignored the peaceful route completely, why should those who chose the chantry be forced to choose what the others want, they could have negotiated, but no it seems that they chose violence, hell I doubt people would complian if someone stopped mugabi in zimbabwe, either way people are going to be hurt might aswell be the bully and not the victim. If you leave the dwarves then the dwarves will be in a civil war and one side wiped out, atleast if the channtry are involved it minimizes the loss of people who are the victims, lets face it the dwarves in the chantry didnt start the violence the dwarves who didnt like the chantry did.

So, by this logic, the best option for Thedas is for some distant elven civilization to show up and wipe out the Chantry for oppressing the elves for so long who've just been trying to do their own thing?

The Chantry mirrors historical religion in a particularly ruthless approch to self-propagation. When in the minority it shows a face of gentleness and peace, crying out for reconciliation. When it becomes the majority it becomes a source of violent oppression and judgement. Most religions fall into this cycle of behaviors but it's a very crafty and manipulative one. When you can't win, you play the martyr. When you can win you play the 'speaking on behalf of God/'the common good' role in why you're oppressing everyone else.

Religion as a concept isn't bad. It's human nature to be curious about and try to understand what exists beyond our perceptions. Building a personal relationship with the divine so to speak. In practice though it tends to end up pretty crappy, especially larger organize religion. People use it as an excuse to portray their personal opinions and beliefs as some sort of uncontestable fact based on a 'truth' that is not proven but that is demanded be taken on faith.

It's about borrowed credibility. When someone, be they some yahoo on a forum or an entire government or military force, says that they are acting under the auspice of 'Divine Right' they are attempting to justify a behavior that otherwise is and should be viewed as abhorrent. Taking rights away from someone or denying them, committing acts of violence and oppression, these are things that we as human beings are generally able to identify as inappropriate. By saying that we're following our holy book of choice or some sort of 'uncontestable divine authority' we attempt to justify that which is otherwise unjustifiable. Debates on ethics and faith defy the concept of proof and thus are always personal. People attempt to use religion to borrow uncontestable moral authority and force their personal opinions on others.

If god wants to me hate someone or condemn someone or something or otherwise make a fellow human being of mine less god can come tell me in person. Having someone with a vested interest in making this sort of decision happen to mention that oh, by the way, the divine agrees with him and thus if I disagree with him clearly I'm evil....

well, almost universal in human history that's proven to be a load of crap and a bad idea.

The Chantry is right in the concept of trying to promote peace and the betterment of people. It is bad in the way that most organized religions tend to be abused and promote abuse.

[Ahisgewaya]

Dethanos wrote...

kingthrall wrote...
It is insulting to see little brats think that religion is some big bad cult and not understand that it pretty much guided humankind still to this day, to understand basic human understanding of each other.

The only thing insulting here is your post.

Religion has played a huge role in the development human civilization, but I think the question of whether the costs outweigh the benefits is open for discussion and debate. If you don't like what others have to say on the subject, refute it or ignore it. Don't sit there insulting them and tellling them they shouldn't be expressing their opinions.

Dethanos is quite right.

Kingthrall, you are very aptly named. A true king of thralls.

[Ahisgewaya]

Mlai00 wrote...

I disagree about all the exhaulted marches being bad, sure they will do it and do it for religion but isnt there already religious oppresion with the dwarves if you help the chantry, so in that case to me its overthrowing dictatorship,

You've got to be joking.
So the Chantry just waltzes in to the heart of dwarven civilization, "Hey guise I know you've worshipped your ancestors since the dwarven stone age (lol), that it's a pillar of your entire society philosophy and culture, but now it's time you throw that away for no good reason, and worship the human god! Eat our hamburgers and freedom fries while you're at it!"
So naturally this causes a bit of social unrest and some ppl die. To maintain order, the dwarven rulership puts restrictions on the cause of the unrest.
And just like IRL, that gives the European err Thedas human nations the perfect excuse to declare war, invade, plunder, and send in hundreds of missionaries to burn all dwarven books. Job well done, the heathens are saved.

Looks like I'm not the only one who projects real life issues onto a game, huh? Nice Roleplaying you're doing there.

[Presentdent]

Dethanos was right until I read that bit about human rights.

I mean... it's in all three major World Religions, it's called the Ten Commandments. Even if you don't think Religion "did it" it is an example of religion trying to organize society for the better. They were definately a step up from Hammurabi and Sargon, at any rate, other famous examples of written laws made to guide humans and grant rights to people. So, please, Dethanos, if you're not going to bother responding intelligently to this point, don't respond at all. You came off as quite good, otherwise.

Furthermore, religion is not so much the basis of the world's conflicts, as justification used to sway the ignorant masses. The crusades were largely not about religion, but about politics and greed, with religion used to sway an army of peasants to pick up axes and join the cause. Religion doesn't cause the evil, so much as greed in the heart's of men. However, is this to say religion as a whole can be held unaccountable? No, it justifies so much wrong, but to say that it does not promote civil rights and treating your fellow man as you might want to be treated is just ignorance. Later interpretations, led by radical groups, are what cause the infringements.

And to get on topic:

The Chantry, in my opinion, is largely right. Magic is dangerous and needs to be controlled. Elves do get routy, and the Dailish sewed their own fate after the Blight, so the anomosity is understandable, if not justified. It is my belief, however, that certain members of the Chantry take these ideals too far, and thus display it in a bad light.

Modifié par Presentdent, 14 mars 2010 - 04:51 .

[Ahisgewaya]

ANd you think their would have been a "ten commandments" without Hammurabi?

What about China? THey did just fine without any of the three "world religions" as you call it. In fact the fact that you call them "world religions" kind of makes you incredibly and blatantly biased. There were religions before Judaism, Islam and Christianity. Three are many religions around that are over a thousand years older than any of those three. And I imagine there will be many more when people finally get tired of christians telling them what to do.


And since you want to get back on topic and think the Chantry was justified in subjugating the elves, I'll say it again, destruction of a people is never justified. If you think it is you are a colossal ass and the world would be a better place without you.

Modifié par Ahisgewaya, 14 mars 2010 - 05:08 .

[Presentdent]

Destruction of a people is justified, yes. The Dailish are irritatingly superior.



And, I call them world religions, because that's what they are, the three major, monotheistic religions people usually call the "Three World Religions," despite Judaism having such a small number of worshippers, compared to others, like Hinduism. It's quite strange, but maybe it's because other religions are concentrated in small areas, like well.. India and East Asia.

Islam, conversely, has large amounts of worshippers throughout Western and Central Asia, Africa, and Eastern Europe, as well as the Americas.

Christianity is present in significant amounts in Europe, Asia, the Americas, Africa, and Australia.

Judaism, in turn, can also be seen in Europe, the Americas, Western Asia, Africa, and Australia, as well as isolated pockets elsewhere. Though, really, their small number is probably overlooked because Christianity and Islam arose from Judaism.

Furthermore, if you believe that the Ten Commandments are Hammurabi's Code, you don't know much about Hammurabi's Code. Granted, they're similar, as one is based off the other, but Hammurabi's Code is far more brutal. However, if you'd like to say it's entirely copying the Code, then there's another reason religion is great, it housed many of the reading and writing people of the day, and was a system for preserving history and creativity. (Ha!)

[Ahisgewaya]

Nice that you laugh at your own post.

I never said the ten commandments WERE the code of Hammurabi, only that I don't think there would have BEEN a ten commandments if there had never been a code of Hammurabi.

Budhism is just about everywhere nowadays, so I find it odd that you don't include it among your "World Religions". Oh wait, no I don't. It's quite predictable from someone like you.

And I stick by what I said, the destruction of a people is never justified. And I also stick by what I said, that anyone who thinks it is justified is an ass.

Modifié par Ahisgewaya, 14 mars 2010 - 05:43 .

[Presentdent]

No response to that bit about the World Religions? I was hoping you'd bring up Buddhism, at least, as they have quite a few new-age converts in the Americas, and enlightened European countries, though still no where near the amount of Christianity and Judaism.

And if they're annoying enough, I say yes! I talked to a guy at the Renaissance Faire today, who was dressed as a Teutonic Knight. I posed various questions against him, for justification of the Teutonic Crusades on the Baltic States. (Hired by the Polish to kill the Lithuanians. Eventually turned on by the Polish, who they killed as well.)

Why the Lithuanians? "Zey vere pagan heathzens that did not follow Christ our Lord and burned in zee eterneal 'ell fiah."

Why the Polish? "Have you -seen- the Polish?"

Why the Jews? "The Bishop told me they were turning our children into Goblins."

That's three justifications right there. You might not like 'em, but they're there for the Teuton.

Modifié par Presentdent, 14 mars 2010 - 05:44 .

[Ahisgewaya]

I did bring up Budhism.

I didn't say "can not have a rediculous justification" I said "is never justified". As in is never a good, right, noble or just thing to do.

Also as I said, that Teuton you were talking to was an ass.

Modifié par Ahisgewaya, 14 mars 2010 - 05:51 .

[kingthrall]

Dethanos wrote...

kingthrall wrote...

I dont think you should compare the chantry to Real life religion. They are not the same thing however close you may think they are.

If they were the same thing, there wouldn't be much point in comparing them. The religion of DA was obviously influenced by real life religion, just like many of the nations in DA were influenced by real life history. I don't see any reason why you wouldn't make a comparison.

kingthrall wrote...
I do not belive in god, but Catholic and Christian history is a part of world society regardles of their actions. Do not make rash assumptions about how corrupt religion is and how it makes all conflicts of the world.

How would that be a rash assumption? We have centuries of history filled with examples of religion being used for corrupt purposes. Humanity has seen countless wars where the belligerents used religion to justify or glorify their actions.

kingthrall wrote...
Most religions taught us basic human rights, reading, writing and kept history recorded away. Not everyone had such privilages that you take for granted today.

Religion taught us human rights? What? How could you possibly come to that conclusion? What role did religion play in teaching us human rights? What makes civil liberty an even remotely religious concept?

kingthrall wrote...
It is insulting to see little brats think that religion is some big bad cult and not understand that it pretty much guided humankind still to this day, to understand basic human understanding of each other.

The only thing insulting here is your post.

Religion has played a huge role in the development human civilization, but I think the question of whether the costs outweigh the benefits is open for discussion and debate. If you don't like what others have to say on the subject, refute it or ignore it. Don't sit there insulting them and tellling them they shouldn't be expressing their opinions.

all i have to say to this is **** off and stop being a troll, i dont even know where to begin to answer your stupid delusional assumptions. I am not even going to bother answering this because you have not read the bible or any other form of religious texts.

And you wonder why there are wars? well its usually people like you who dont know how to read, and dont understand the whole bigger picture of religion that make all the others grab their pitchforks and ring the tavern bell.

I dont even need to understand relgion to know why you shoudnt compare the two. Maybe ill just say that the darkspawn are all Facist (cant say N word)  and your father was also a **** because he is delusional for his country at the time.

Modifié par kingthrall, 14 mars 2010 - 05:56 .

[Ahisgewaya]

kingthrall wrote...

all i have to say to this is **** off and stop being a troll

Clearly you have won the argument! Your tactic of call everyone a brat and/or troll has worked marvelously! Bravo!
What a quick wit you have too! You forgot to call him a noob though! And since you're tossing around childish insults, why leave out the greats?  like stupid doodoo head? or boogar face?

Modifié par Ahisgewaya, 14 mars 2010 - 05:57 .