18 réponses à ce sujet

[Grand_Commander13]

The current common knowledge has the Geth Pulse Rifle as doing about 1/3 the damage per shot as the Avenger, which makes no sense at all.  While I had some trouble getting consistent numbers for my tests, I eventually managed.  Here is the relative damage-per-shot scaling of the assault rifles (Revenant not included):

• Avenger: .92
• Geth Pulse Rifle: 1 (~11.76 damage)
• Collector Assault Rifle: 1.53
• Vindicator: 3.13

I'll note that the Vindicator's number is really hard to measure because of its nature as a high-damage burst-fire weapon.  The calculated number I had for it was ~3.14; its current entry on the table is due to me extrapolating from the Coalesced information and represents me being off by two fifths of a round in what it took to bring the target's shield down.

Modifié par Grand_Commander13, 15 mars 2010 - 08:05 .

[Grand_Commander13]

Updated with the results of my own testing.

[Tlazolteotl]

Umm, damage per shot is not a valid comparison.

They're ARs with different firing (and accuracy) rates.

[Grand_Commander13]

Tlazolteotl wrote...

Umm, damage per shot is not a valid comparison.
They're ARs with different firing (and accuracy) rates.

You need to know an accurate damage per shot to calculate the right damage over time.  Current wisdom puts the Avenger doing 10.8 while the Geth Pulse Rifle does a mere 3.7, which is complete bunk.  If the current relative damage per shot isn't known, how do you expect understanding of damage over time to be correct despite that?

[Athenau]

We already know the relative damage per shot for pretty much all the weapons. The Geth Pulse Rifle figure was only wrong because people were looking in the wrong place for it.

[Tlazolteotl]

You understand damage over time by shooting stuff.

"I killed X in 15 seconds with Y, instead of 20 seconds with Z"

[Grand_Commander13]

Athenau wrote...

We already know the relative damage per shot for pretty much all the weapons. The Geth Pulse Rifle figure was only wrong because people were looking in the wrong place for it.

Where is this source located?  The only page I can find damage per shot from is wildly inaccurate, at least with regard to the pulse rifle.

[Athenau]

Coalesced.ini on the PC version. The Mass Effect wiki (http://masseffect.wikia.com/) also has accurate damage per shot numbers for most weapons (though many of their dps calculations are wrong).

[Bogsnot1]

Tlazolteotl wrote...

You understand damage over time by shooting stuff.
"I killed X in 15 seconds with Y, instead of 20 seconds with Z"

Thats not an entirely accurate way of doing it. I can kill something at long range quicker with the vindicator than i can with an avenger, but close range its the opposite. Accuracy is the key.
What OP is trying to do, is break it down to damage per bullet, regardless of range, accuracy, player style etc. Pure hard data in its rawest form.

[Grand_Commander13]

Yeah, that's exactly the idea. RoF can be counted later, using video to time it very accurately. Killing speed is very subjective, not only between users but against any given enemy. You'd need to kill a lot of enemies to be able to get usable data just because of the large deviation from the norm on any given kill.

I checked Coalesced.ini (using Notepad++ no less, so it actually makes sense) and GPR doesn't have its damage actually listed. Unlike what the wiki thinks though, it doesn't seem to be equal to the Avenger. I'll need to check the Collector Assault Rifle again, because I didn't get a number ~70% above the Avenger's damage per shot...

[Grand_Commander13]

Alright, I've gone through everything again, made sure my numbers were being consistent (finally), and the Avenger, Vindicator, and Collector Assault Rifle are finally behaving relative in damage to one another about what I'd expect them to be given Coalesced's figures. If that's the case, then I can guesstimate the GPR's base damage per shot to be about 11.76, or more to the point: higher than the Avenger.

I have absolutely no idea why my numbers between tests were so unstable (I'll be checking the Avenger's damage one last time later, don't you worry), but there you go.

Modifié par Grand_Commander13, 15 mars 2010 - 08:06 .

[cruc1al]

How exactly did you do your tests? You've mentioned nothing about your methods.

In my testing (of which I have video in the sig) I investigated the time taken to take out 500 shields. Including one 1.5sec reload, it took 5.0  (close to 5.1) seconds for the GPR, and 5.3 seconds for the Avenger. Without the reload, the times are 3.5 sec and 3.8 sec for GPR and Avenger, respectively. In the video, GPR fired 50 shots and Avenger fired 55 shots before the shields were down. That's consistent with your result that GPR does more damage per shot. It's also surprising, since coalesced.ini states the GPR fire rate is 1000 while that of Avenger is 850. That difference seems to be absent in the tests; in 3.8 seconds, GPR should've fired about 54 shots, very close to Avenger. That anomaly is probably due to GPR's variable fire rate.

[Grand_Commander13]

Ah yes, methodology. Well, inspired by your videos I did the first room in Tali's loyalty mission, hitting the last Geth Trooper with an Improved AI Hacking from Tali. I then got right up to him (melee range, 2x damage) and hit him with bullets until the 500 point shield dropped. I then multiply by the damage multiplier versus shields to see how many "real" bullets were fired (as the actual amount included 25% extra phantom bullets for all rifles but the GPR and 35% phantom bullets for the GPR), then divided one thousand by this result to get my own custom "damage per bullet". Everybody's damage was then multiplied by the GPR's damage.

Thank you, by the way, for making me go over my methodology and realize that I put the wrong dang table up in the original post. >.< I've fixed it now though.

Actually it's funny.  Before seeing your video and realizing that a docile pet is a lot easier to hit than someone trying to kill you and avoid being killed in turn I was trying to do health damage to mercenaries.  There, while I was missing a lot (obviously), I was still able to get a feel for Vindicator > CAR > Avenger = GPR.

Modifié par Grand_Commander13, 15 mars 2010 - 08:21 .

[cruc1al]

Grand_Commander13 wrote...

Ah yes, methodology. Well, inspired by your videos I did the first room in Tali's loyalty mission, hitting the last Geth Trooper with an Improved AI Hacking from Tali. I then got right up to him (melee range, 2x damage) and hit him with bullets until the 500 point shield dropped. I then divide by the damage multiplier versus shields to see how many "real" bullets were fired (as the actual amount included 25% extra phantom bullets for all rifles but the GPR and 35% phantom bullets for the GPR), then divided one thousand by this result to get my own custom "damage per bullet". Everybody's damage was then multiplied by the GPR's damage.

What do you mean "phantom bullets"? The damage multiplier versus shields just increases damage per bullet, it doesn't change how many shots are fired.

Oh, and did you find in your tests that CAR was better than Avenger? In my test it didn't perform as well.

Modifié par cruc1al, 15 mars 2010 - 08:18 .

[Grand_Commander13]

Gah, I said divide instead of multiply. Anyway, that's why I call them "phantom bullets": scare quotes are wonderful things. It's just a term to express the extra 25% or 35% of a bullet's worth of damage that is flying with every bullet that impacts shields. Since they don't all have the same multiplier I need to normalize it.

And yeah, I got the CAR as performing at pretty much exactly the damage per bullet that Coalesced said it should. When I analyzed your video though a lot of the damages were out of whack. To be honest I don't have a clue why you're getting the results you are: it took you more rounds with the CAR to drain the shields than you did with the Avenger, while I took 40% less.

I have my four saves in place so I can easily go back to it. My next project might be to move to the Hunter room and see what happens.

[cruc1al]

Grand_Commander13 wrote...
To be honest I don't have a clue why you're getting the results you are: it took you more rounds with the CAR to drain the shields than you did with the Avenger, while I took 40% less.

Um, no. In my test it took about 36 bullets for the Collector rifle to take down 500 shields, but 55 for Avenger. That's about 36/55 = 0.66.

[Grand_Commander13]

Ah, duh. Forgot, not every weapon has 40 ammo. *slaps forehead* Well that would give it a 1.64 on my scale according to your data. Which is actually largely comparable to mine (i.e. it generally supports Coalesced's data), except your numbers come up with a stronger Avenger. What was your bonus damage from research projects and class skill or armor? I'd wager if we figured in how ammunition is known to work now, our numbers would agree with one another. I didn't use ammo.

[cruc1al]

I was using +40% disruptor ammo. Ammo damage bonuses are fixed, they don't affect the magnitude of other bonuses. The amount of damage bonus you get from an ammo power is always x * 0.y, where x is the base damage of the weapon and y is the % increase the ammo power gives, then that's just added to the weapon damage separately from any other damage bonuses.

It says in my video's info that I have "2/5 Assault Rifle Damage upgrades, no Assault Rifle Penetration upgrade." Also you can see I'm wearing Cerberus assault armor which doesn't give damage bonuses. No DLC armor does. Also I'm not 100% sure but I think I didn't have any points in the passive class skill. Could be wrong though, but it doesn't make much difference and it can't account for differences in our data.

Modifié par cruc1al, 16 mars 2010 - 12:10 .

[Grand_Commander13]

Yeah, it only makes a small adjustment, not enough to push the Avenger below the GPR in damage. For my part I had +30% damage and the penetration research project, as well as 9% damage from a class skill.

Right now all I can really do is call for more data and try to figure out what damage mods could be biased in favor of a weapon with a higher multiplier.