122 réponses à ce sujet

[janeym27]

This is the difference between books and interactive games though - a book is a linear narritive which (usually) has one way to get from the beginning to the end. (Now within that book, there can be many interprations made by many different people, because we all see signs differently and take different meanings from the same things, etc, so 'origional intention' is pretty much lost as soon as something is loosed to the rest of us ala R.Barthes, but I digress.) but with a game like Mass Effect, there are many choices, and that is what this medium is (or should be) for: giving us varied experience of the same over-arching story.

Now obviously for comics/novels/any other adaptations sets within the ME universe, there needs to be some 'set' way of playing the story for them to take their cues from or else you'd ge a lot of self contradiction in the non-interactive explorations of the universe, which would confuse things. But that is OK. If you know the set path that the 'default' Shepard (let's say) has walked, you can still recognise which choices were made and why, and see how the choices you've made differ and affect the way the plot progresses without it detracting from choices 'your' Shepard makes. Shepard might be different, but the way the other characters interact with him will still be true to their character (or should be), and so rather than the universe being totally different, we simply get a deeper understanding of it. However, saying that this renders every in game experience which falls outside the realm of this set path as non-canon is silly. It is still a valid part of that universe, just not that set story.

For example: you could interperate the way the romance scenario plays out with Garrus and FemShep as showing a vunerable, lonely side to Garrus' nature, which he only shares with her. Even though 'default Shep' doesn't interact with Garrus in the same way, this doesn't mean that it's fair to dismiss any claims Garrus as a character is vunerable and lonely - he simply doesn't show it as much on that particular story path. The writers have given us a complex universe full of complex characters here.

I think 'canon' as we know it now is maybe the wrong word to be using in the context of the default Shep path Bioware have selected.

Apologies for length. Sometimes I get carried away.

Edit: to me canon in this context has always meant rules governing origional universe, not simply within the realm of the story itself. The 'origional story', being an interactive video game, is actaully many. This isn't an adpatation of a story, it just so happens the devs have had to choose a set story path to base certain choices and additional content on. Playing through with a Shepard who deviates from the default path isn't the same as, for example novel writing, making up an entirely new story which contradicts the old one. The over-arching plot of any Mass Effect playthrough is the same, it's just the story is told differently. Just wanted to make that clear. I'm not trying to say anyone is right/wrong. Just that it doesn't really matter for the experience of the game.

Modifié par janeym27, 13 mars 2010 - 05:58 .

[BatarianBob]

Without the games, the comic wouldn't exist.



If the comic contradicts the games, the comic is the one that's wrong.

[Suron]

McBeath wrote...

Suron wrote...

funny how you ignore those of us that have completely nullified your point...

BioWare set up a story with a character...and set up boundries that I change by my own actions to get from A to B in the story....within those boundries I have established MY canon shepard....within the ME games...for ME...MY shepard is canon...

difference between MY canon shepard and Bio's canon shepard? nothing..except any future property/games/stories set after or duing the ME trilogy will reference their shepard..obviously not mine...

that however does not change the FACT that MY shepard is MY canon shepard...all the rest are just alternate outcomes..

/your argument

but thanks for playing

Actually, the OP is correct in his assessment of the situation.  Why?  Well, while YOUR Shepard can make a little choice on a dialoge tree, or hit the "interupt", you still don't change anything in the big picture.  Do the Collecters still die regardless of your choice at the end of the game?  Yep, but you just choose how. 

You get to make a lot of little choices, or say things a little different, but the end result is still the same.  No matter what story your reading it still has a beginnig and ending, so does ME2.  You just get to make small changes in between. 

For us as players to have actual freedom the game would suck.  Why?  Because likely we'd do something that down the road would see us fail, and probibly after 3 games and 90 hours of playing.  That wouldn't be fun at all.  So I'm ok with playing my Shepard to thier specifications.  Cheers.

guess we have another that can't read.

yes I said that MY canon Shepard is established within the boundries BioWare set...because all stories have to have a focus..withouth those boundries we'd just be thrown in the game with no kind of direction or purpose...

but still..MY canon Shepard is established within those boundries regardless of what BioWare writes as how it should have played out so they can produce more products using this IP....however NONE of the stuff outside of the game is relevant to MY canon Shepard and Universe.

[McBeath]

Suron wrote...

Bachuck wrote...

Suron wrote...

funny how you ignore those of us that have completely nullified your point...

BioWare set up a story with a character...and set up boundries that I change by my own actions to get from A to B in the story....within those boundries I have established MY canon shepard....within the ME games...for ME...MY shepard is canon...

difference between MY canon shepard and Bio's canon shepard? nothing..except any future property/games/stories set after or duing the ME trilogy will reference their shepard..obviously not mine...

You nullified nothing. If anything, you proved my point.

You don't even realize that you just acknowledged that your Shepard is not canon, which is my point.

Thanks for playing, sparky.

yes he is..he's MY canon....

or can't you read?

oh that's right you pick and choose.

you're right though..MY shepard isn't BioWares canon Shepard..however he is still MY canon Shepard while BioWares is not.

what part of that don't you get?

and can't you come up with something better besides mimicking my last comment? I mean it's obvious you have selective hearing (and reading) skills..but really....can't come up with something yourself?

give up

YOUR Shepard is indeed BIOWARE's canon one... because all you do is make small choices, nothing major. 

Take Julius Caesar for instance, a character who is larger than life.  No matter how he is portrayed by various mediums(books, tv, movies. ect) there is still a lot of "canon" about his life.   Roman, General, Statesman, ect.  Some people portray him as a seflless person, military genius, power hungry tyrant, but none of that changes WHAT he did, it only establishes the WHY.  Shepard is the same, he still WILL stop the collectors, we as players just get to choose WHY. 

[Bachuck]

Suron wrote...

yes he is..he's MY canon....

or can't you read?

oh that's right you pick and choose.

you're right though..MY shepard isn't BioWares canon Shepard..however he is still MY canon Shepard while BioWares is not.

what part of that don't you get?

and can't you come up with something better besides mimicking my last comment? I mean it's obvious you have selective hearing (and reading) skills..but really....can't come up with something yourself?

give up

Your canon is not the official canon. What part of my first post didn't you understand? Or did you just read the topic title and start to reply without taking into context what I said? No one, but you, gives a crap about your canon. I'm talking about the only canon that matters in the end - the one Bioware created and our Sheps, no matter how much we love them, are not canon.

[McBeath]

Suron wrote...

McBeath wrote...

Suron wrote...

funny how you ignore those of us that have completely nullified your point...

BioWare set up a story with a character...and set up boundries that I change by my own actions to get from A to B in the story....within those boundries I have established MY canon shepard....within the ME games...for ME...MY shepard is canon...

difference between MY canon shepard and Bio's canon shepard? nothing..except any future property/games/stories set after or duing the ME trilogy will reference their shepard..obviously not mine...

that however does not change the FACT that MY shepard is MY canon shepard...all the rest are just alternate outcomes..

/your argument

but thanks for playing

Actually, the OP is correct in his assessment of the situation.  Why?  Well, while YOUR Shepard can make a little choice on a dialoge tree, or hit the "interupt", you still don't change anything in the big picture.  Do the Collecters still die regardless of your choice at the end of the game?  Yep, but you just choose how. 

You get to make a lot of little choices, or say things a little different, but the end result is still the same.  No matter what story your reading it still has a beginnig and ending, so does ME2.  You just get to make small changes in between. 

For us as players to have actual freedom the game would suck.  Why?  Because likely we'd do something that down the road would see us fail, and probibly after 3 games and 90 hours of playing.  That wouldn't be fun at all.  So I'm ok with playing my Shepard to thier specifications.  Cheers.

guess we have another that can't read.

yes I said that MY canon Shepard is established within the boundries BioWare set...because all stories have to have a focus..withouth those boundries we'd just be thrown in the game with no kind of direction or purpose...

but still..MY canon Shepard is established within those boundries regardless of what BioWare writes as how it should have played out so they can produce more products using this IP....however NONE of the stuff outside of the game is relevant to MY canon Shepard and Universe.

This is why I love the internet.... I don't agree with you, so I am clearly Illiterate, stupid, inferior to you in every way.  Now, do you actually talk to people like that in person, or only from the comfort and safety of your computer?  Sad. 

[InvaderErl]

I've been reading the comic and I haven't seen anything that steps on the toes of the games thus far.

[Tlazolteotl]

Critical Mission Failure = Game Over = Story Over

So .. if you play a game and die in Mission 1, then that's the story.



To say that Shepard is only different from canon Shepard in a couple of small choices is ridiculous.

[McBeath]

Tlazolteotl wrote...

Critical Mission Failure = Game Over = Story Over
So .. if you play a game and die in Mission 1, then that's the story.

To say that Shepard is only different from canon Shepard in a couple of small choices is ridiculous.

No, but can you actually do anything that BIOWARE hasn't already allowed you to do?  Do you have to follow whatever version of the ME universe your presented with? 

[Bachuck]

Suron wrote...

guess we have another that can't read.

And it seems you don't know how to disagree without resorting to childish insults.

[Suron]

McBeath wrote...

Suron wrote...

Bachuck wrote...

Suron wrote...

funny how you ignore those of us that have completely nullified your point...

BioWare set up a story with a character...and set up boundries that I change by my own actions to get from A to B in the story....within those boundries I have established MY canon shepard....within the ME games...for ME...MY shepard is canon...

difference between MY canon shepard and Bio's canon shepard? nothing..except any future property/games/stories set after or duing the ME trilogy will reference their shepard..obviously not mine...

You nullified nothing. If anything, you proved my point.

You don't even realize that you just acknowledged that your Shepard is not canon, which is my point.

Thanks for playing, sparky.

yes he is..he's MY canon....

or can't you read?

oh that's right you pick and choose.

you're right though..MY shepard isn't BioWares canon Shepard..however he is still MY canon Shepard while BioWares is not.

what part of that don't you get?

and can't you come up with something better besides mimicking my last comment? I mean it's obvious you have selective hearing (and reading) skills..but really....can't come up with something yourself?

give up

YOUR Shepard is indeed BIOWARE's canon one... because all you do is make small choices, nothing major. 

no..MY shepard is not BioWare's canon.....yes he is established within story boundries that MUST exist for their to be any kind of direction or coherency...however MY shepard (unless BioWare establishes a canon that direcly mirrors all MY choices) is not gonna be the same as BioWares.......so you're saying if I kill the Rachni queen that's BioWare canon (B-Canon)....or if I save her it's also B-Canon?  how does that work?   nice try though...

MY shepard, again, is established withing a set of boundries that must be followed to tell the story with coherency and direction...those boundries MUST exist in such a medium.....however what MY canon Shepard does may not be what BioWare set's as lore for future products/stories/games/etc....

regardless I'm tired of repeating myself...have fun kiddies

[Suron]

Bachuck wrote...

Suron wrote...

guess we have another that can't read.

And it seems you don't know how to disagree without resorting to childish insults.

hey pot..I'm kettle

[Tlazolteotl]

McBeath wrote...

Tlazolteotl wrote...

Critical Mission Failure = Game Over = Story Over
So .. if you play a game and die in Mission 1, then that's the story.

To say that Shepard is only different from canon Shepard in a couple of small choices is ridiculous.

No, but can you actually do anything that BIOWARE hasn't already allowed you to do?  Do you have to follow whatever version of the ME universe your presented with? 

Dude, now you're confusing the plot and engine with canon.
If one Shepard turns left with the Mako, and another turns right, both of those can't be canon.

Without a plot, without good writing, it would be a game with crap story.
 You might as well be playing Ninja Bread Man, and complaining that you can't be anything but a ninja bread man.

[Bachuck]

Tlazolteotl wrote...

Critical Mission Failure = Game Over = Story Over
So .. if you play a game and die in Mission 1, then that's the story.

To say that Shepard is only different from canon Shepard in a couple of small choices is ridiculous.

There's nothing ridiculous about it. The GAME OVER screen is for gameplay purposes only. It's not an actual end to Sheps life within the ficitional universe.

In ME1, you have to stop Saren and Sovereign. You don't have the choice to let them go or even fail the mission. ME1 always ends with you victorious. That's the canon story Bioware wante to tell. We got to "nudge" it along in certain directions, but overall, we couldn't change the canon they wanted us to follow.

[Ooga600]

this is why making a new character straight from ME 2 sucks. there is no canon, only choices that had to be made so new people could play the game. It's like any other game where you create a character and make decisions. You decide what the "canon" is

[mcsupersport]

1) Who cares what is "cannon" if I am playing my type of Shepard??



2) Every game, I REPEAT, EVERY GAME, out there you are playing someone else's story, unless you happen to have written it. Every game, you follow along the story going from point A to B, even the "open forum" games...aka..Oblivion style. Otherwise it wouldn't be a game, heck even the MMO's you are following someone else's story and paths.



3) What is even the point arguing about "Cannon"?? Bioware will still produce a game, and I should be able to import my Shepard into it and play it. IF "cannon" is Council dies, yet in my game they live, how does cannon effect me??



4) Get over yourself and have fun playing the game.

[Bachuck]

Suron wrote...

hey pot..I'm kettle

Show me where I insulted you.

[McBeath]

Suron wrote...

McBeath wrote...

Suron wrote...

Bachuck wrote...

Suron wrote...

funny how you ignore those of us that have completely nullified your point...

BioWare set up a story with a character...and set up boundries that I change by my own actions to get from A to B in the story....within those boundries I have established MY canon shepard....within the ME games...for ME...MY shepard is canon...

difference between MY canon shepard and Bio's canon shepard? nothing..except any future property/games/stories set after or duing the ME trilogy will reference their shepard..obviously not mine...

You nullified nothing. If anything, you proved my point.

You don't even realize that you just acknowledged that your Shepard is not canon, which is my point.

Thanks for playing, sparky.

yes he is..he's MY canon....

or can't you read?

oh that's right you pick and choose.

you're right though..MY shepard isn't BioWares canon Shepard..however he is still MY canon Shepard while BioWares is not.

what part of that don't you get?

and can't you come up with something better besides mimicking my last comment? I mean it's obvious you have selective hearing (and reading) skills..but really....can't come up with something yourself?

give up

YOUR Shepard is indeed BIOWARE's canon one... because all you do is make small choices, nothing major. 

no..MY shepard is not BioWare's canon.....yes he is established within story boundries that MUST exist for their to be any kind of direction or coherency...however MY shepard (unless BioWare establishes a canon that direcly mirrors all MY choices) is not gonna be the same as BioWares.......so you're saying if I kill the Rachni queen that's BioWare canon (B-Canon)....or if I save her it's also B-Canon?  how does that work?   nice try though...

MY shepard, again, is established withing a set of boundries that must be followed to tell the story with coherency and direction...those boundries MUST exist in such a medium.....however what MY canon Shepard does may not be what BioWare set's as lore for future products/stories/games/etc....

regardless I'm tired of repeating myself...have fun kiddies

While you may believe that Saving/killing the Rachni queen will actually matter it doesn't.   Either way, the ending of ME3 is set.  Either the Galaxy is doomed(not likely) or it ain't.  That's the canon.  Shepard will be "remembered" by ME history as the guy who joined the Alliance, stopped the collectors, and Saren, and hopefully the reapers.  Period.  It's like in real life when some people view a historical figure as a hero, and others see him as a villian.  Doesn't changed what they did in life(the canon for lack of a better word) only our perception of it.  You percieve Shepard differently than I do, but he is still Commander Shepard.  In the end I can't decide to punch the Illusive man in the face(not canon), kick the Turian Counciller in the balls(too bad on that one) or anything else Bioware doesn't wan't me too. 

[Ecael]

Right. You can have your personal Shepard be more Renegade or Paragon,
but in the end, you're still going to make a decision the game is
dictating. For instance, in ME2, there are multiple choices to make
regarding Tali's trial, but ultimately she's going to end up on the
Normandy because the canon needs her too. You don't have the option of
leaving her on the Flotilla.

I think a good amount of people have accepted the fact that the choices you make in Mass Effect have very little consequence (unless ME3 proves us wrong). Mass Effect is more like a choose-your-own-adventure movie with most of the bad endings torn out in order to make the experience enjoyable for anyone who takes part in it, no matter what their choices are.

BioWare designs games assuming that the player will replay it at least once, if not twice. They've given us the same number of options throughout the game (dialogue choices, classes, endings, etc.). Arguing over what represents a canon Shepard is fruitless; the only way to deviate from the canon is simply not to play Mass Effect. The only way a game can truly ever have a controllable experience is if the player can seamlessly add content to the game - voice acting, writing, level design - that apply to his choices and desires. No game is even remotely capable of doing this, because games like these require the effort of hundreds of people to put together and test.

The only media I've encountered that makes you feel like you have a choice or an effect on the story are Japanese visual novels, but even those are really just multiple linear stories that branch out from a single plot. Those games are designed to be replayed more than once or twice.

[Tlazolteotl]

Bachuck wrote...

Tlazolteotl wrote...

Critical Mission Failure = Game Over = Story Over
So .. if you play a game and die in Mission 1, then that's the story.

To say that Shepard is only different from canon Shepard in a couple of small choices is ridiculous.

There's nothing ridiculous about it. The GAME OVER screen is for gameplay purposes only. It's not an actual end to Sheps life within the ficitional universe.

In ME1, you have to stop Saren and Sovereign. You don't have the choice to let them go or even fail the mission. ME1 always ends with you victorious. That's the canon story Bioware wante to tell. We got to "nudge" it along in certain directions, but overall, we couldn't change the canon they wanted us to follow.

No, you don't get it. That's just the canon story. Not your story.

Take a look at the "I chose Udina, really?" thread, and see what I mean.
People complain about being the canon shepard there, if they start a new game without importing.

[janeym27]

Either way, will this really change your enjoyment of the game?

Edit: I mean, the choices you make on your playthrough are still your choices, it's still your Shepard. It's like getting annoyed that other players aren't making the same choices as you when this the the beauty of this medium: we can have own own individual experience of the story. In fact, we can have several!

(I still think the whole problem comes from this definition of the term 'canon' as it can be applied to interactive methods of storytelling )

Modifié par janeym27, 13 mars 2010 - 06:11 .

[McBeath]

Tlazolteotl wrote...

McBeath wrote...

Tlazolteotl wrote...

Critical Mission Failure = Game Over = Story Over
So .. if you play a game and die in Mission 1, then that's the story.

To say that Shepard is only different from canon Shepard in a couple of small choices is ridiculous.

No, but can you actually do anything that BIOWARE hasn't already allowed you to do?  Do you have to follow whatever version of the ME universe your presented with? 

Dude, now you're confusing the plot and engine with canon.
If one Shepard turns left with the Mako, and another turns right, both of those can't be canon.

Without a plot, without good writing, it would be a game with crap story.
 You might as well be playing Ninja Bread Man, and complaining that you can't be anything but a ninja bread man.

That's not what I mean.  Only that from beginning to end Bioware has set a plot for Shepard, and his history from Eden Prime(where we are introduced to him) to his end, whatever that may be.  We can't control that he is at Eden Prime, dies in ME2, ect.  We can make fun choices at certain points, but by no means can take him/her in a direction not already preconcieved.  I don't think it takes away from the fun that is to be had playing ME2, only that I'm not really free to do what I want.  That freedom is an illusion, but much like gaming in general is a fun one. 

[janeym27]

JohnnyDollar wrote...

janeym27 wrote...

Either way, will this really change your enjoyment of the game?

Not really, just don't build up your expectations for ramifications for big decisions that you have made in ME1 and ME2 for ME3.  Because they won't matter. 

I haven't ruled out muliple endings just yet. Yes, the over-arching story is always going to be the same, and the reaper win/reaper fail ending is pretty much going to have to happen, but there could be numerous ways of doing that. Not that I'm positive Bioware actually will, it's just that 'multiple endings' are nothing new to videogames, and since there is a good degree of choice involved in how you play the game, it seems like they'd be wasting the medium not to try and have different ramifications for different ways of playing.

Also, while nothing I do in my playthrough will matter in the Mass Effect universe as it extends to other mediums, all my choices matter in my experience of the game.

In short: chillax, dudes. 'S all good.