60 réponses à ce sujet

[Count Viceroy]

My god that mushroom cloud was worth it.

[Herr Uhl]

Count Viceroy wrote...

My god that mushroom cloud was worth it.

And granting the wishes of men in awesome hats and eccentric old men in red is always nice.

[Count Viceroy]

The posh appartment wasn't really a bad thing either.

[errant_knight]

It depends on the type of person your character is. One person's 'idiocy' is another person's only alternative. For my PC, blood magic wasn't an option, so killing Isolde was out. She also wasn't going to kill a child when there was another alternative, and the mages owed us for killing the abominations. We'd already destroyed Conner's army of undead, so the village was fairly safe. The Conner/demon showed no interest in leaving the castle itself. Keeping Eamon alive was part of deal, so no problem there. The real danger was to Isolde and Bann Tegan. He accepted the idea without protest, and therefore the risk, and I didn't give a damn what Isolde thought.

Edit: Oh, wait. I misunderstood--should have read the OP instead of responses. You're talking about not helping, not the dilema of what to do about Conner. I could never abandon them to their fate, but then I can't play mildly nasty characters, let alone evil ones.

Modifié par errant_knight, 14 mars 2010 - 11:20 .

[Janni-in-VA]

Well, I'm playing through a HNF now who originally planned to leave Redcliffe to its fate, then changed her mind. She actually got something like a +2 approval from Sten when she changed her mind. They were headed out of the village back to camp, but she listened to Thomas' pleas and turned back. It did seem to make sense from an "I need all the allies I can get" perspective.



Not sure what she'll do about the whole Connor thing, though. This woman is more hardened than any other I've played, so I'll just have to see when I get there. I have a feeling, though, that either Isolde or Connor is going to die. But, that's a whole 'nother issue.

[Alodar]

I had three playthroughs and one character, although he wouldn't consider himself evil, his first question to any situation is what's in it for me?

When he came across RedCliffe and was told of the impending attack, he had no interest in putting himself at risk. He had other more important things to do -- he had heard of some cool items at Warden's Keep, so he left. When he came back all the villagers were dead. It was awesome.

Did he lose out on items/ experience? Sure, but in character he really didn't care about the fate of some grubby villagers.

Alodar

Modifié par Alodar, 15 mars 2010 - 02:34 .

[Alodar]

This character also let the mom sacrifice herself as it saved him a trip and made a deal with the demon for an extra power as the kid was just some weak willed spoiled human brat who would just fall under some other demon's influence eventually.  Might as well profit in it.

Alodar

[draxynnus]

Sabriana wrote...

There will be no "I'll be heading to the tower" for any of my PCs. Yes, I, the player know that nothing bad will happen, but my PCs do not. Trying to leave before the battle will cause Thomas to flip out, so why should they take the risk afterward.
The demon had the castle and Teagan well in hand before, no reason that it couldn't do it again. My PC just battled undead coming from the castle and the undead marine unit coming from the lake. Those things were tough fighters, far tougher than the militia and the knights combined. She wants this situation resolved, now.
Telling Isolde that my PC needs to think things over, compels her to say "Hurry. Who knows what the demon will do." I see. Thinking takes too long. Why would a trip to the tower and back be less dangerous. Isolde wrought much havoc, and unleashed horror, terror and death on the very people she should protect. She is the arlessa, not just a run-in-the-mill average woman.
She lies until the very end, and even Teagan comments on it. When my PC asks her if she's ready to die, she answers "If sacrificing myself means that Connor might live, I am ready. Let me make right for all the things I have done." Bravo. The first honorable words out of her mouth. She will get her wish and be allowed to be hailed as a hero, not looked upon as the destroyer that she really was.

See, the first time around, the sudden influx of demons caught everyone by surprise and then built up its own momentum as each person slain meant another corpse for another demon to posess. After defeating the attack on the village and clearing out all the castle, however, you've removed that momentum and possibly reduced the threat to a single abomination in the Arl's bedchamber. If the bedchamber is barricaded in and all of the bodies are burned before you leave, it's reasonable to believe that there are no corpses left for the demon's allies to posess and that the knights present can indeed "hold the fort" for a day or so. (This goes double when you consider that since the maximum party size is 4, that theoretically everyone else could and possibly should be left behind to reinforce the knights, even if the game mechanics do not allow this option. Thinking on it, this is possibly what they should have done - you can go to the tower, but you have to nominate party members to leave behind, and those party members may have a fight on their hands before you get back from the tower.)

Yes, there is a risk. But the risk is manageable, and if managed, is low enough to be worth taking, given that the alternatives are using forbidden magic or killing a child. Now, there are also reasons why a character may feel that that risk, however small, is not in fact worth taking - however, it's not really a stupid one to take either.

[draxynnus]

filaminstrel wrote...

I think a more.. catch-all.. way of phrasing that, in terms of being a Grey Warden, would be "magic you don't necessarily trust to work." I mean, this is Jowan we're talking about here-- I may be rare in my sympathy for him in general, but even I can't escape the fact that he's just one screw-up after another. I wouldn't want to put the lives of Isolde, Connor, the mage I'm sending into the Fade, and possibly everyone in Redcliffe, in his hands.

Well put. In fact, I'd make it even more catch-all and just say "magic you don't necessarily trust" - that covers distrusting blood magic in general as well as Jowan in particular. Deserved or not, blood magic does have the reputation as a corruptive magic, and even a character that doesn't necessarily fall in line with the Chantry might be hesitant about using a form of magic that may prove to have a higher cost than expected in the long run even if it seems at first to have worked precisely as advertised.

(Which was essentially what I was going for with referring to blood magic as forbidden - you don't necessarily need to be a zealot to consider avoiding blood magic to be a Good Idea. Could have chosen my phrasing a lot better in hindsight, however.)

Modifié par draxynnus, 15 mars 2010 - 05:47 .

[ObserverStatus]

CalJones wrote...

It makes as much sense as blowing up Megaton in Fallout 3. It's an option, but it ends up being a huge disadvantage.

How so? Tenpenny tower is a nice place.

[sylvanaerie]

So much death and destruction in Thedas already if I can save one small child's life I consider my work for the day done. And as much as I hate Isolde (and one playthrough I DID sacrifice her) she IS his mom and he loves her. He begs you to keep them all (and esp her) away from him if you talk to him upstairs. Usually I go to the mages since it makes me feel all warm to say "They owe me" and really its only a day's journey away plus there are no bodies left and very few people to control in the castle and if the demon kills them, then she has no one left to lure anyone else into the castle. Jowan (if let out) is available to help too if Connor gets out of hand.



I HAVE worked a scenario where I didn't let jowan out and kept them from bringing him up so I could get to a "Kill Connor" scene. Was pretty heavy stuff and I ended up crying when Isolde begs you to let her do it cause she's his mom. I didn't keep it though I had planned to initially. Its just too much brutal death for me to take.

[Mlai00]

I don't think it's idiocy to allow Redcliffe to die, in gameplay, logic, or character.



Gameplay:

Think of it as a way to "Skip The Fade" on your Nth playthrough. Sure you miss some quests and experience. But by that Nth playthrough, you're probably also playing on Nightmare difficulty. Are you really going to miss a few exp and gold in an early area? Nah.



Logic:

Why are you wasting time and risking life to save a town of peasants against non-Darkspawn? You might as well go around the country hunting bandits and rooting out Crow cells, during a Blight. Ok, Teagan's pissed, but he has no right to be. You're not a cop, you're not the king's soldier, you're not a chivalrous knight errant, you're not Robin Hood. You're a Grey Warden. There is a Blight.

People expecting Grey Wardens to be the proverbial heroes and to right the wrongs of the land, is what led to the disaster started by Sophia Dryden.



Character:

Any of the non-human Origins has perfectly good reasons not to go the extra mile for human peasants.

[Herr Uhl]

Mlai00 wrote...

Logic:
Why are you wasting time and risking life to save a town of peasants against non-Darkspawn? You might as well go around the country hunting bandits and rooting out Crow cells, during a Blight. Ok, Teagan's pissed, but he has no right to be. You're not a cop, you're not the king's soldier, you're not a chivalrous knight errant, you're not Robin Hood. You're a Grey Warden. There is a Blight.
People expecting Grey Wardens to be the proverbial heroes and to right the wrongs of the land, is what led to the disaster started by Sophia Dryden.

...and how do you think you'd be able to defeat the blight whilst fighting a civil war at the same time?

What makes it stupid is that you need Eamon, even if you could care less about the village, and the only one who seems to know a way to him happens to be Teagan that is going to defend the village. If you leave the village to burn, he'd logically die too, and thus your chance to get Eamon without using siege weapons and fighting the now even larger army of demons dies with him. It's not logical, it's stupid.

[Mlai00]

None of what I wrote precludes the plan of forcing/persuading Teagan to get us into the castle to find Eamon while the undead are busy with the village.

As was already mentioned, that is the logical "heartless" route to go.

Therefore, stupidity not on the part of your character, but on Mr. Gaider.

That's right, Mr. Gaider, you made a BOO BOO!!

[Gabey5]

so you are complaining about getting freedom and choice? i for one dont need any of them....why? because its a game and my char is a god

[TheRealIncarnal]

I did it once and stuck with it, but I haven't been back yet to see what happened. All I know is that clearly it was a bad decision. Clearly chaotic stupid.



I agree that the much better decision would have been to wait for the undead to come out to attack the town while you slip into the castle, thus facing lighter resistance in there at the expense of the village below. Still lacking men to fight in your army, but so it goes.

[errant_knight]

Mlai00 wrote...

None of what I wrote precludes the plan of forcing/persuading Teagan to get us into the castle to find Eamon while the undead are busy with the village.
As was already mentioned, that is the logical "heartless" route to go.
Therefore, stupidity not on the part of your character, but on Mr. Gaider.
That's right, Mr. Gaider, you made a BOO BOO!!

Teagan purposely want to make sure you don't do that and holds back information accordingly. It's not stupid if one of the characters forsees the possibility and acts to prevent it. Good thing for Redcliffe that Teagan's pretty smart, huh? Otherwise more people would leave the town to it's own devices and let them all get killed.

[Herr Uhl]

errant_knight wrote...

Teagan purposely want to make sure you don't do that and holds back information accordingly. It's not stupid if one of the characters forsees the possibility and acts to prevent it. Good thing for Redcliffe that Teagan's pretty smart, huh? Otherwise more people would leave the town to it's own devices and let them all get killed.

...well duh.

If you start killing the women and children one after one once barricaded in the church to force him then. That would be less chaotic stupid than leaving. It's not like his plan is totally foolproof.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Mlai00 wrote...

Logic:
Why are you wasting time and risking life to save a town of peasants against non-Darkspawn? You might as well go around the country hunting bandits and rooting out Crow cells, during a Blight. Ok, Teagan's pissed, but he has no right to be. You're not a cop, you're not the king's soldier, you're not a chivalrous knight errant, you're not Robin Hood. You're a Grey Warden. There is a Blight.
People expecting Grey Wardens to be the proverbial heroes and to right the wrongs of the land, is what led to the disaster started by Sophia Dryden.

...and how do you think you'd be able to defeat the blight whilst fighting a civil war at the same time?

What makes it stupid is that you need Eamon, even if you could care less about the village, and the only one who seems to know a way to him happens to be Teagan that is going to defend the village. If you leave the village to burn, he'd logically die too, and thus your chance to get Eamon without using siege weapons and fighting the now even larger army of demons dies with him. It's not logical, it's stupid.

And that's the really stupid part of the game.
We supposedly need Eammon so much that we are willing to waste time and chase myths in order to cure him.
Imagine that you are told to search for a mythical pile of dead woman ashes, because they might exist and they might heal one person that you think you need, while there is a blight going on. You think a warden would really waste his time doing that?

Why not put Teagan as Arl (and he is popular enough) and be done with it? Eammon isn't necessary.
And yet the game forces us to follow this myth.

I of course turn a blind eye to this and enjoy the game, but it was painful at first.

[Mlai00]

Teagan purposely want to make sure you don't do that and holds back information accordingly. It's not stupid if one of the characters forsees the possibility and acts to prevent it. Good thing for Redcliffe that Teagan's pretty smart, huh? Otherwise more people would leave the town to it's own devices and let them all get killed.

Ah, wait? Is that why he hit on me?! To make me want to help him and Redcliffe Village?!!?!

I knew it was strange for someone like him to just go ga-ga over a strange dwarf.....

Bann McDreamy used me!!!!!!!!!!!!!11 D:

OH HE IS SO DEAD!!! D-:<

IF ONLY I COULD LOCK HIM IN THAT ROOM WITH THE SUITS OF ARMOUR!!!!!11!!!

[BubbleDncr]

Wait so....what happens after you abandon Redcliffe? Do you just go back later and the village is dead? How do end up saving/allying with Eamon for the Landsmeet to be called later on?

[Sabriana]

BubbleDncr wrote...

Wait so....what happens after you abandon Redcliffe? Do you just go back later and the village is dead? How do end up saving/allying with Eamon for the Landsmeet to be called later on?

Teagan survives. And chews the PC out something fierce.

[Tinnic]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

And that's the really stupid part of the game.
We supposedly need Eammon so much that we are willing to waste time and chase myths in order to cure him.
Imagine that you are told to search for a mythical pile of dead woman ashes, because they might exist and they might heal one person that you think you need, while there is a blight going on. You think a warden would really waste his time doing that?

Why not put Teagan as Arl (and he is popular enough) and be done with it? Eammon isn't necessary.
And yet the game forces us to follow this myth.

I of course turn a blind eye to this and enjoy the game, but it was painful at first.

Try being told by Sten "It's not your faith I question" at the gates of Haven when you are a Dalish Elf and have your own gods and would probably be insulted at the implication that you follow the teaching of the chantry given that the chantry was the reason you no longer have a homeland. Why I don't have an option to tell Sten "My faith? It's not my faith Sten but we need Eamon and unless we give this a shot we are stuck because... well I don't know, I mean, I am a Dalish elf and don't really understand human politics but Alistair tells me that no one but Eamon will do and they aren't going to give-up on him without giving this a go so just shut-up and follow me."

[CalJones]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
And that's the really stupid part of the game.
We supposedly need Eammon so much that we are willing to waste time and chase myths in order to cure him.
Imagine that you are told to search for a mythical pile of dead woman ashes, because they might exist and they might heal one person that you think you need, while there is a blight going on. You think a warden would really waste his time doing that?

Why not put Teagan as Arl (and he is popular enough) and be done with it? Eammon isn't necessary.
And yet the game forces us to follow this myth.

I of course turn a blind eye to this and enjoy the game, but it was painful at first.

It bothers me as well but then this is a Bioware game. The side quests in BGII are even more ludicrous, but I always do every available one before heading off to rescue Imoen. Ah well.

I do wish you could just let Eamon die, though. I generally try to be nice in most of my games but he's an interfering old goat and bothers the bejeezus out of me.

As for Tenpenny Tower - yes it is cleaner and nicer than the Megaton shack, but the shack is bigger and has a lot less loading screens to get to it. You also lose out on several vendors and (potentially) a companion and a bobblehead. Not to mention ending up with a horrible dirty clouded wasteland. I also can't bring myself to nuke a bunch of innocent people including children, so the lure of a cleaner but less convenient suite just isn't worth it to me.