874 réponses à ce sujet

[JKoopman]

scyphozoa wrote...

what heat-sink fiasco? there is no fiasco. the devs wanted to add an ammo mechanic and it works. i don't care about the lore about how guns fire, i'm here to stop reapers. as far as i'm concerned the shooting is better off with heat sinks.

So basically, "I don't care about lore or believability or the established universe or anything else, I just wanna shoot things until they die." Congrats, you're exactly the type of gamer BioWare was hoping to attract with ME2.

And considering that heat sinks are one of if not THE most controversial features of ME2 (as evidenced by the hundreds upon hundreds of "Heat Sinks: WTF?" threads on these forums), I think it's fair to call it a fiasco.

[MerinTB]

Wow, thanks!

That was enlightening and fun!

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

Christina Norman wrote...

I am not going to be doing a voice over for the slides for a couple reasons
- GDC recorded my presentation, but I don't own that recording, so I can't post it (I can post the slides because I own those)

Will the recording eventually be available for us to see?  Or is it only open to your hoity-toity industry types? 


ME2 rocked.  MOAR NAOW.

[Nick Fox]

I would like to see the presentation of Me 1 too now. This franschise is in a total identity crisis as I see it. Whats next, I wonder I wonder. Bring in the guys that made DA:O to actually get away from this shooter nonsense and get some quality characters that can interact. Thats a start and maybe look at what made the first game memorable.
Just a thought.

Seriously what is bw's vision with Me series ? Shooter? If thats it come out and say so and why didnt you make the first game that? All I can do is shake my head at the decision making.
The time has come to make up your minds on what you are doing.

[MonkeyChief117]

Wow this presentation is extremely interesting - it shows precisely where ME3 will take us and explains everything about ME2. As long as they bring back some kind of inventory system (instead of just scrapping it) i will be very happy. As for the nakedness factor - who cares if some idiot wants to walk around with their party naked! We shouldn't be punished for that.

[valiala]

I'm surprised that not even a single magazine/website praised the level art of Mass Effect 1

IMO, this shows that feedback from fans is much more trustworthy than the press

[MonkeyChief117]

Nick Fox wrote...

Seriously what is bw's vision with Me series ? Shooter? If thats it come out and say so and why didnt you make the first game that? All I can do is shake my head at the decision making.
The time has come to make up your minds on what you are doing.

The presentation tells how they put combat as an important objective - and it shows (perhaps ME2 is alittle RPG lite). But the ME3 slide clearly states an emphasis on RPG (now that they've sussed shooting). Where's the confusion in that?

[LoweGear]

JKoopman wrote...

And considering that heat sinks are one of if not THE most controversial features of ME2 (as evidenced by the hundreds upon hundreds of "Heat Sinks: WTF?" threads on these forums), I think it's fair to call it a fiasco.

It's only a fiasco only if the ammo system was so utterly broken that the gameplay objectively failed because of it. However, given that the ammo system as it was implemented in ME2 is similar to the way most FPS and TPS shooters do it (simplified even, since you only have a single type of thermal clip for every weapon), and that said system has met with much success in all of those titles, along with said system having met no bugs or problems in actual implementation, the "failure" of the ammo system is more of an opinion of those who don't like it than an actual gameplay issue, simply because it was a change from the previous system used in Mass Effect 1.

As it is implemented, there really is nothing wrong with the ammo system, and most of the complaints are either due to players who:

1. Got used to the Mass Effect 1 overheat system
2. Don't like having to scrounge for ammo
3. Don't like having to manage ammo count
4. Claim the ammo system is a "dumbed down" system from the overheat system

1) is somewhat understandable, if irrational.
2) is slightly understandable in the least, but given the position of enemies in the game and the amount of ammo spawn points I don't see how this is a problem at all
3) is for those who use weapons without much regard for fire discipline or tactics, and hence end up using more ammo than they need to kill an enemy. It's not a problem of the ammo system then, but of the player's skills - the limitation is there as a challenge afterall
4) Given the amount of work needed for the ammo system compared to the overheat system, I fail to see how this can be a point at all

The ammo system is equally loved and equally hated it seems by everyone who visits these forums, but to call it a "fiasco" just because of the posts that hate it is truly unfair, especially since these forums are not indicative of the actual majority/minority opinion of ALL the players who've played Mass Effect 2, but simply the opinions of the individuals who do post here on the forums.

[A Fhaol Bhig]

LoweGear wrote...

JKoopman wrote...

And considering that heat sinks are one of if not THE most controversial features of ME2 (as evidenced by the hundreds upon hundreds of "Heat Sinks: WTF?" threads on these forums), I think it's fair to call it a fiasco.

It's only a fiasco only if the ammo system was so utterly broken that the gameplay objectively failed because of it. However, given that the ammo system as it was implemented in ME2 is similar to the way most FPS and TPS shooters do it (simplified even, since you only have a single type of thermal clip for every weapon), and that said system has met with much success in all of those titles, along with said system having met no bugs or problems in actual implementation, the "failure" of the ammo system is more of an opinion of those who don't like it than an actual gameplay issue, simply because it was a change from the previous system used in Mass Effect 1.

As it is implemented, there really is nothing wrong with the ammo system, and most of the complaints are either due to players who:

1. Got used to the Mass Effect 1 overheat system
2. Don't like having to scrounge for ammo
3. Don't like having to manage ammo count
4. Claim the ammo system is a "dumbed down" system from the overheat system

1) is somewhat understandable, if irrational.
2) is slightly understandable in the least, but given the position of enemies in the game and the amount of ammo spawn points I don't see how this is a problem at all
3) is for those who use weapons without much regard for fire discipline or tactics, and hence end up using more ammo than they need to kill an enemy. It's not a problem of the ammo system then, but of the player's skills - the limitation is there as a challenge afterall
4) Given the amount of work needed for the ammo system compared to the overheat system, I fail to see how this can be a point at all

The ammo system is equally loved and equally hated it seems by everyone who visits these forums, but to call it a "fiasco" just because of the posts that hate it is truly unfair, especially since these forums are not indicative of the actual majority/minority opinion of ALL the players who've played Mass Effect 2, but simply the opinions of the individuals who do post here on the forums.

This!
i was going to say the samething, but you beat me to it ^^

[exxxed]

yoda23 wrote...

BlightWalker wrote...

Am I the only PC gamer who is disturbed by there only being the 360 versions shown and snippets like 'designed for 360' ?

no you are not.

Yep you're not

 PLUS the damn thing is that they REVAMPED all the things xbox players were crying for (inventory, gameplay, Mako)

 That's why all this is upsetting at least...

Most of these posts can be answered with this question:

 Have you ever played Mass Effect 1 on PC?

Modifié par exxxed, 14 mars 2010 - 07:30 .

[LoweGear]

exxxed wrote...
Have you ever played Mass Effect 1 on PC?

YES

If it weren't for Mass Effect 1, I wouldn't have been excited enough to get into Mass Effect 2. And in fact, I'm a PC only player. (In large part due to the PC being the only playing platform I have, and also because most of my favorite games and game genres are on the PC). And yet I agree with the problems involving the inventory, the gameplay and the Mako.

[Koralis]

exxxed wrote...

OMG! That's the first time i've seen Mass Effect 1's inventory on xbox, dayum now i get where all the complaints were coming from, i can't even imagine how bad was the Mako controls.

The problem was the disconnect between "Hate having to scroll throguh 2000 items to find what I'm looking for" and "Hate having any customization whatsoever."

The former was true.  The latter is not.  ME2 has basically no customization to speak of.  


The slide talking about how awesome it is for everyone's weapons to auto-upgrade to the best available tells you that they forgot that the ME franchise is an RPG.  Because it's not an RPG they also don't have to bother telling you about damage, rate of fire, etc, etc.   Ultimately, it's a shooter with talking bits, which apparently is exactly what they were hoping for.

I enjoyed ME2, but they gutted the elements that I find MOST enjoyable.  Here's hoping that they put them back for ME3.

Modifié par Koralis, 14 mars 2010 - 08:08 .

[Koralis]

FlyingWalrus wrote...
Changes were made that you didn't like. Cry more. The fact of the matter is that after a while, "looting" became pointless. Pointless! UTTERLY AND COMPLETELY POINTLESS. How many Frictionless Materials VII-IX and Inferno Rounds X did I dissolve into omni-gel that would serve no purpose but to further expediate the next safe cracking that would yield even MORE merchant trash that, in the end, yielded no less than an atrocious 6,000,000 credits by the time I finished the game? What you guys seem to want is a return to the monotony that did get chopped out, something that BioWare seems not too keen on going back to themselves. If ritual monotony is what makes an RPG an RPG, well, I'm glad that the definition of RPG is being blurred now, eh?

Here's the trick... they could have let you aquire Fricionless Material tech at different levels, and then onboard the ship you could use them to design a gun.   Or instead of Frictionless, some other tech.  Tthey could have completely ditched these things as "items" and no one would care I think.

Items in a cluttery inventory are not the point.   The point is that as-is, all of the tech boils down to "improved shotgun +2" or "improved shotgun +3".  That's a downgrade of the system to AD&D standards!  

[Murmillos]

If there is one place that shows you how broken the heat sink idea is. It is Grunts Loyalty mission.



Holy crap... heat sinks respawn out of thin air every 30 seconds after picking one up?



You know the system if flawed when you need heat sinks materializing out of thin air just to keep the player stocked so they can continue to fire their weapons to complete the quest.

Oh, and Garrus recruitment mission is the same too - 5-7 spots in the central area that heatsinks magically reappear to keep the player well restocked.



Oh wait.. the magical heat sink gnomes did it...

[DarknessBear]

Orkboy wrote...
Everything was improved?

How can everything be improved when they removed most of what made ME1 unique to other shooters?
 
And what was left?

- Resource gathering was turned into a boring planet scanning grindfest.

- Transitions were turned into immersion breaking insta-teleporting with monotonous loading screens.

- You can pretty much guarantee leveling up after every mission now and it's too easy to end up with points left over.

- Having a single button for sprint/cover and vault over cover only works in getting you killed.

- Can only crouch when in cover.

- Armour now only seems to be there to look good. We may as well all go around in underwear.

- The HUD looks amaturish and is far too confusing if you just glance at it.

- The map system is now pointless, oh an arrow points in the direction I need to go. Yeah that's very usefull when there's only one direction I can go in anyway?

- The mission structure is very episodic and disjointed, with no sense of cohesion.

- Team mate banter is non existant.

- Tech powers, Biotics and ammo all share the same cooldown, they're different types of abilities, why would they share cooldown?

- Signposted firefights... Oh look, a room full of crates, I wonder what's going to happen here then?

- Team mates skill sets are now too generic and no longer serve any purpose. It now doesn't matter who you have on your team as they are all pretty much te same. ( Except for the final mission )

And there are others and some of them are really niggles, but i'll take it that you get my gist by now.

Yes! Exactly. That is why I was so hurt at the beginning of the game (right when you pick up your pistol) it was like... THEY RAPED MY FAVORITE GAME OF ALL TIME! And at the interface; what junk. It seriously took me an entire playthrough to figure out what the hell the Squad Mate UI section means. So bad. The UI they had at E3 was entirely better, but again, they had to make it easier for Casual Gamers. 

BIOWARE! SCREW the casual gamer dammit, ME1 was for the hardcore and it did great. Why stop?! Sellouts. 

Gemini1179 wrote...

While awkward at first, I do not miss the inventory too much. That said, this is a "be careful what you wish for" situation if I ever saw one and what really concerns me is what criteria BW uses for "listening to the community". Is it 100 posts on one subject? 1000? If so, it plays more to the loudest segment of the player community and not necessarily the most rational.

For example, I keep reading posts of people saying they didn't mind or even miss the elevator rides from ME1 (myself included) but a lot of game reviews I read in the past and other forums talking about ME1 had so many bad things to say about the elevators. Same went for the Mako.

I don't think the Mako needed to be taken out of the game. An update to the controls, yes. Imagine if the Mako had XYZ axis thrusters on the front and back so that if you bounced off a hill, but were still driving forward, these thrusters would auto correct your spin in the air to attempt to keep you on your line.

Problem solved.

It's like everyones solution is "just take it out". I mean elevators were a complaint because they were too slow, "Ok take them out, put terrible loading screens in place". Why not just SPEED up the elevator rides? It keeps you immersed. Why not fix up the Mako? Why not fix the inventory? They just throw everything out so you have no chance to complain about them. 

Modifié par DarknessBear, 14 mars 2010 - 09:13 .

[LoweGear]

Actually heard some fridge logic on these same boards on the thought that those particular heat sinks are actually the heatsinks we ejected off the weapons, which have cooled down and thus ready for use again. Inconsistent with the location of the clips, but a nice, if non-canonical explanation.



Also, the idea is hardly "broken", considering that said heatsink piles are more for gameplay reasons than for lore reasons. Besides, it's not like Mass Effect 2 is the first game to have infinite ammo stockpiles in it (Ex: Half Life 2, generally lauded as one of the best FPS games this decade, has them too).

[Destructo-Bot]

Unato wrote...

the game sold over 2 million copies, last checked I don't think there's even 100K ppl on this forum. whatever the complaints on this forum are, it's hardly representative of a lot of ppl. the dev comments are interesting tho I gave you that

This is NOT logically valid. Sample size doesn't have to be enormous to be representative.

[EternalWolfe]

DarknessBear wrote...

Yes! Exactly. That is why I was so hurt at the beginning of the game (right when you pick up your pistol) it was like... THEY RAPED MY FAVORITE GAME OF ALL TIME! And at the interface; what junk. It seriously took me an entire playthrough to figure out what the hell the Squad Mate UI section means. So bad. The UI they had at E3 was entirely better, but again, they had to make it easier for Casual Gamers. 

BIOWARE! SCREW the casual gamer dammit, ME1 was for the hardcore and it did great. Why stop?! Sellouts. 

. . . question: How does having a squadmate UI that you apparently had trouble understanding equal making it easier for Casual Gamers?  That would seem to be problem with a bad UI, not 'making it easier'.

[TJSolo]

EternalWolfe wrote...

DarknessBear wrote...

Yes! Exactly. That is why I was so hurt at the beginning of the game (right when you pick up your pistol) it was like... THEY RAPED MY FAVORITE GAME OF ALL TIME! And at the interface; what junk. It seriously took me an entire playthrough to figure out what the hell the Squad Mate UI section means. So bad. The UI they had at E3 was entirely better, but again, they had to make it easier for Casual Gamers. 

BIOWARE! SCREW the casual gamer dammit, ME1 was for the hardcore and it did great. Why stop?! Sellouts. 

. . . question: How does having a squadmate UI that you apparently had trouble understanding equal making it easier for Casual Gamers?  That would seem to be problem with a bad UI, not 'making it easier'.

He shouldn't try to understand the sqaud UI. Since it doesn't represent shields or health in a way meant to be looked at.
It is to be seen through the eyes of a casual player;
A is my squad alive
B is my squad dead.
That is pretty much the use of the squad UI.

[cityhunter357]

EternalWolfe wrote...

I have no problem with elevators coming back, but for the love of god, at least put something more then a quick blurb of conversation that ends with you listening to the elevator music until you reach the top.  Conversation within the elevator was very short, and took up very little of the time - at least stream Galatic news, or commericals("This one has no time for your solid waste excretions.") to fill up the time.

I Agree, I don't think it's hard to do.
In any case, better have elevators than the loading screens.

EternalWolfe wrote...

Not how it works - they have limited time and resources, so it increase the quality of one thing, something else must suffer.  To have worlds as open as ME1, but still being more vivid and less cut-n-paste, would require less worlds, or cut resources from somewhere else.

Not against the idea, mind you, but you can't make an omlette with cracking someone's skull and taking their eggs . . . wait, no, that's not right . . .  Eh, either way, I would like more exploration in ME3, but not at the cost of gameplay or dealing with a bunch of copy-paste worlds with no personality or difference.

Mass effect 3 will be a simpler work than ME2 since now they have the graphic engine, the gameplay etc.
It's only a matter of polishing.
Then they can use time and resources to expand the universe and fill the gaps of ME2, the exploration.

I know it's a matter of balance with time and resources, but let's see, in ME1 we have something like 30 planets to explore (free roam), to make richer planets without sacrificing the free roam aspect, they can do 20 or even 15 in Mass effect 3.

It will be for sure a better experience than the 5/10 minute linear corridors N7 mission of Mass effect 2 (really really disappointing the side quest aspect of ME2, I ended up preferring the cut'n paste planets of ME1).

EternalWolfe wrote...
That, again, takes up more resources for something that adds little - first of all, you're not a pilot, why are you flying a ship?  You're a commander - you give the command, the pilot flies you there.  Driving the mako made some sense.  Also, to create this, they'd have to build a full 3D explorable system with everything that entails, properly test them, ect, ect.  Its not a good time investment imo - wouldn't you rather they spent time on something more important to the gameplay?

well in ME2 you control even your pilot for a little time, so the "role" matters is not that strict.
Plus as I said above, they have a large part of game ready for ME3, being the graphics and gameplay (bioware itself said this), so they can work on something totally new for ME3.

I don't think a full 3D explorable system will take many more time than the boring Mining minigame (and of course if they gave up on mining, they have more resouces to use).
Space is empy and planets are just a spheres with a texture, lol.it's a joke.

Mine is a simplified talk, I knwo how game developments works, It's just to give the idea.

[LoweGear]

Destructo-Bot wrote...

Unato wrote...

the game sold over 2 million copies, last checked I don't think there's even 100K ppl on this forum. whatever the complaints on this forum are, it's hardly representative of a lot of ppl. the dev comments are interesting tho I gave you that

This is NOT logically valid. Sample size doesn't have to be enormous to be representative.

But it is logically valid: The validity of a sample depends on the quantity of the sample: If I were to ask just the opinion of 1 person to ascertain the needs of ten thousand people that would be a very poor sample. The larger the sample size, the more consistent the average data becomes, hence to have a better and hence more consistent representation you'd need to have a much larger sample.

From my experience in several other message boards, I don't even believe there's even more than 10,000 registered (forums, not game) accounts here (which woud likely to include duplicates), and of those only a comparative fraction post, and an even smaller fraction of that are like us who are frequent - constant posters. Hence despite what we may like to think, neither of us represent the majority or the minority of the gaming community as a whole. We are just the most visible to the developers due to us visiting the official forums, and unfortunately our individual views and opinions do not conform to the views and opinions of other people elsewhere.