874 réponses à ce sujet

[Terror_K]

Jebel Krong wrote...

you can aim for the lowest common-denominator to try and include everyone, or you can aim high, and drag those same people up with you with good design - the latter obviously the preferable option and the one BW follows.

One can debate if its the model BioWare follows given ME2. Many of us feel that BioWare did more "aiming for the lowest common-denominator" and less "good design" in ME2's case, which is why we feel things are oversimplified and Mass Effect 2 wasn't so much the sequel to Mass Effect as it was "Mass Effect for Dummies"

[Jebel Krong]

Terror_K wrote...

Jebel Krong wrote...

you can aim for the lowest common-denominator to try and include everyone, or you can aim high, and drag those same people up with you with good design - the latter obviously the preferable option and the one BW follows.

One can debate if its the model BioWare follows given ME2. Many of us feel that BioWare did more "aiming for the lowest common-denominator" and less "good design" in ME2's case, which is why we feel things are oversimplified and Mass Effect 2 wasn't so much the sequel to Mass Effect as it was "Mass Effect for Dummies"

stripped-down and refined =/= dumbed down, just because you (and a few others) don't like it. many of the elements in me2 work a lot better than those comparable in me1. i'm not going to rehash old ground though, this thread has pretty much covered both viewpoint by now.

Modifié par Jebel Krong, 24 mars 2010 - 10:30 .

[Terror_K]

Jebel Krong wrote...

stripped-down and refined =/= dumbed down, just because you (and a few others) don't like it. many of the elements in me2 work a lot better than those comparable in me1. 

While true, that's mostly because they've been so simplified and stripped-down that the issues that made them awkward or flawed in ME1 are completely gone. Things weren't fixed and thus made better, they were removed and thus no longer a problem because they weren't there. ME1 was like a car with a dickey handbrake that sometimes resulted in it rolling down a hill, and ME2 was BioWare removing the wheels from the car to solve the problem rather than fixing the handbrake.

[exxxed]

R0cket Surge0n wrote...

I've given up hope. Every game is made for consoles these days so I've already said goodbye to inventory systems like in Morrowind, completely diverse missions/quests, tactical fps games like brothers in arms etc. etc. It's all get 10 of 10 here and 5 of 5 there, here's a radar to point you to the right place to go at all times, etc. etc.

I'm just glad a game like this comes along every now and then and makes up for the lack off all this with solid story and some new concepts.

Well there's a pretty much a large RPG from fans to fans (that's what i like to call CDprojekt because they really support fans opinions and critiques and this game will pretty much be the best RPG in recent memory ) coming soon with the name of The Witcher 2 and it's only for the PC (YAY!) so no console influence there .

Here's the trailer www.gametrailers.com/video/exclusive-debut-the-witcher/63501


Sorry for the off-topic guys...

Modifié par exxxed, 24 mars 2010 - 10:45 .

[Massadonious1]

Terror_K wrote...
 "Mass Effect for Dummies"

Pressing the "omni-gel" button/key on items you didn't want and figuring out that a weapon that has 180 base damage is probably better than a weapon that does 170 base damage was never exactly rocket science in the first place.

Think you might be over-simplyfing it just a tad.

Modifié par Massadonious1, 24 mars 2010 - 10:46 .

[thompsonaf]

UltimateRC wrote...

My issue with ME2's inventory system wasn't that it was 'streamlined' or that you couldn't access it on missions, or that you couldn't collect as much 'loot';

Simply put, it was that you LOST functionality and customisation in the change over. Particularly pointing to the ability to upgrade/style/choose our squad mates' gear, and the ability to customise weapons.

Researching upgrades is all well and good, but its really detached from whatever you're actually upgrading. Ship, medi-gel, med-bay, armour, sheilds, weapon damage, biotics and tech abilites are all on the same terminal. 'oh, heres something I can upgrade, I will.' Theres no care for what it is, (other than maybe for a couple of extraneous upgrades you don't need). Its also a linear, only way is up deal too. In ME1 you had to make choices about whether to give a weapon a damage upgrade or an accuracy one (for example). I want to still be able to make that choice, I don't mind if I can only do that in the armoury. That'll be more natural than lugging around a hundred different suits of armour anyway.

Ugh, what I just don't get about ME2 is the way the felt they had to scrap everything and start over when many things just needed refinement.

QFT

I'd like to be able to change armor/gear/mod loadouts on all my squadmates (even if there's 20 of them!). It really adds a lot to the experience, at least for me.

[Jebel Krong]

Terror_K wrote...

Jebel Krong wrote...

stripped-down and refined =/= dumbed down, just because you (and a few others) don't like it. many of the elements in me2 work a lot better than those comparable in me1. 

While true, that's mostly because they've been so simplified and stripped-down that the issues that made them awkward or flawed in ME1 are completely gone. Things weren't fixed and thus made better, they were removed and thus no longer a problem because they weren't there. ME1 was like a car with a dickey handbrake that sometimes resulted in it rolling down a hill, and ME2 was BioWare removing the wheels from the car to solve the problem rather than fixing the handbrake.

in some ways and with some things, yes. but even you've said that point-based aiming, for example, was ridiculous and the me2 system is better. i could easily see micromanaging inventory for 10 squaddies becoming more tedious than planet-scanning as well.

people bang on about customisable armour, but (stupid helmets aside) you do have pretty good customisation of your own n7 armour, and squaddies outfits, imo are unique and a lot better than the slightly ridiculous notion of you choosing what everyone wears. the characters are more individual now.

a better analogy would be tthat BW removed the handbrake and put auto-assisted abs on.

Modifié par Jebel Krong, 24 mars 2010 - 10:52 .

[Jebel Krong]

thompsonaf wrote...

QFT

I'd like to be able to change armor/gear/mod loadouts on all my squadmates (even if there's 20 of them!). It really adds a lot to the experience, at least for me.

case in point: how exactly does that add to the experience at all, other than being a pointless time-sink and annoyance everytime you find a new weapon/upgrade?

[Repellerar]

Thats what she said.

[Pocketgb]

Jebel Krong wrote...

case in point: how exactly does that add to the experience at all, other than being a pointless time-sink and annoyance everytime you find a new weapon/upgrade?

I always found it interesting that whenever I had a squadmate put on a suit of armor that was a million times worse than the one i was currently wearing there would be no complaint...

[catabuca]

Terror_K wrote...

While true, that's mostly because they've been so simplified and stripped-down that the issues that made them awkward or flawed in ME1 are completely gone. Things weren't fixed and thus made better, they were removed and thus no longer a problem because they weren't there. ME1 was like a car with a dickey handbrake that sometimes resulted in it rolling down a hill, and ME2 was BioWare removing the wheels from the car to solve the problem rather than fixing the handbrake.

I think this is a great analogy. 

I for one applaud Bioware for all the hard work they did on trying to improve ME2. I think that, as the first game where they really tried to address shooter mechanics, there were always going to be places where things didn't work. Something was always going to suffer. In this case it was the core RPG richness and immersive qualities that made ME1 a great game despite its own flaws. 

It was interesting looking over those slides. As I have no choice but to take them out of context, I'd say that while I do feel a glimmer of hope for a richer RPG experience in ME3, I also can't help get the feeling I'm being asked to ignore my problems with ME2. 

Time will tell. As always.

[i66er]

Thx for sharing. A nice inside into what the h... went wrong with ME2.

[Dudeman315]

Jebel Krong wrote...

in some ways and with some things, yes. but even you've said that point-based aiming, for example, was ridiculous and the me2 system is better. i could easily see micromanaging inventory for 10 squaddies becoming more tedious than planet-scanning as well.

people bang on about customisable armour, but (stupid helmets aside) you do have pretty good customisation of your own n7 armour, and squaddies outfits, imo are unique and a lot better than the slightly ridiculous notion of you choosing what everyone wears. the characters are more individual now.

a better analogy would be tthat BW removed the handbrake and put auto-assisted abs on.

Stats effecting "to hit" is very rpg and for one want it back. It won't happen. I also love micromanagement games, but I think the compromise road here may be best with N7 style weapons(with saveable congifurations maybe like 3 per weapon type) and choicing those to equip your squad and you.  N7 color and pattern selection for squadmates. Not perfect but would make both sides happy and still be fairly simple for people who had trouble with the "non-streamlined" ME1 system.

[Terror_K]

Jebel Krong wrote...

but even you've said that point-based aiming, for example, was ridiculous and the me2 system is better.

No, I actually support point-based aiming in some form. What I had said was that the ME2 system (aside from the heat sink crap) wasn't as bad as I had thought and was admittedly snappier than the way it was in ME1. But that doesn't mean there isn't a middle-ground that would better suit an RPG, such as something akin to Fallout 3's system. I'd prefer something more akin to an RPG in this facet, but would be willing to accept the sacrifice of a purely shooter-based mechanic in this instant so long as too many other RPG aspects didn't also suffer. With ME2, too many other RPG aspects suffered. If ME3 retainted ME2's basic combat, but revived almost everything else that was lost in the RPG culling that was ME2, then I'd fully welcome it.

i could easily see micromanaging inventory for 10 squaddies becoming more tedious than planet-scanning as well.

No direct offense intended, but I can't think of a more polite way to put this, so bear with me: are gamers so ADD-addled these days that they find even the tiniest bit of customisation where you have to break away from the action for more than 10 seconds to be tedious and "micro-management" now? I mean, do people honestly consider the ME2 armour system to me "too micro-management" as well now that there are armour pieces? Sounds like Diablo 2 would give people a heart-attack these days. No wonder games are being so dumbed-down these days.

people bang on about customisable armour, but (stupid helmets aside) you do have pretty good customisation of your own n7 armour, and squaddies outfits, imo are unique and a lot better than the slightly ridiculous notion of you choosing what everyone wears. the characters are more individual now.

I dunno... I personally find the notion of most of these people running around with no protection whatsoever into battle and avoiding the effects of the void of space via nothing but a little face-mask rather more ridiculous than being able to choose what they wear. As for the N7 armour, most of it is purely cosmetic, as the pieces have no real stats and are so few that one can easily just stick with the default armour and it makes no difference.

[exxxed]

Here's a pre-GDC interview with Christina Norman explaining some of the gameplay changes:



http://www.justin.tv...79e1809c57cc535

[Images]

Wow. Can't believe I only just read that. Great find. I love both games but am glad it says they're aiming to throw in more rpg elements for the 3.

[Pocketgb]

Terror_K wrote...

As for the N7 armour, most of it is purely cosmetic, as the pieces have no real stats and are so few that one can easily just stick with the default armour and it makes no difference.

20% more health makes a huge difference for a Vanguard.

[Weiser_Cain]

Armor should have mattered more though

[Pocketgb]

How much more should it matter? That's a pretty subjective line.

[Weiser_Cain]

Pocketgb wrote...

How much more should it matter? That's a pretty subjective line.

Gear in general should be like a leg on a three legged stool. Armor is the 'not dieing' part of that leg, especially for non-biotics.

Attack Defense Skill
With the proper armor you should be able to noticeably enhance these three things. There aren't even enough armor pieces in the game to outfit yourself to go far in any one direction. I think the best I could do was enhance my hear shot and weapon damage so that I could snipe some guys in one shot, which sounds good but they were already taking enough damage that my companions would finish them for me. And at the same time there isn't anything like that for biotics beyond %5 here and there. I don't think there's any armor for techs.

[thompsonaf]

Jebel Krong wrote...

thompsonaf wrote...

QFT

I'd like to be able to change armor/gear/mod loadouts on all my squadmates (even if there's 20 of them!). It really adds a lot to the experience, at least for me.

case in point: how exactly does that add to the experience at all, other than being a pointless time-sink and annoyance everytime you find a new weapon/upgrade?

Might be a pointless time-sink/annoyance for you, I however enjoy it.

[Pocketgb]

Weiser_Cain wrote...

Gear in general should be like a leg on a three legged stool. Armor is the 'not dieing' part of that leg, especially for non-biotics.

Personally, I think you would die pretty quick without the N7 armor ; )

In regards to more customizabiltiy, I agree. It would be cool to see whole sets dedicated to certain stat bonuses rather than a general theme.

[Tasker]

Jebel Krong wrote...

thompsonaf wrote...

QFT

I'd like to be able to change armor/gear/mod loadouts on all my squadmates (even if there's 20 of them!). It really adds a lot to the experience, at least for me.

case in point: how exactly does that add to the experience at all, other than being a pointless time-sink and annoyance everytime you find a new weapon/upgrade?

How about The Sims  series?

As they are nothing but pointless time-sinks how come all 3 of the series have sold in their millions and all have had bucket loads of expansion packs?

If people didn't like pointless time-sinks then do you real think The Sims 1 would have made it past the first base game?

For a lot of people, the micromanagement aspect of RPGs is a huge contributor to why they play them in the first place.

Modifié par Orkboy, 25 mars 2010 - 09:00 .

[MarloMarlo]

slyguy07 wrote...

Yeah I will back up Terror K on this...I don't have to patience to actually be serious and put up with the know-it-alls and people who demand we play by philosophy 101 rules even when factual evidence is presented, but it sure was fun poking someone on here for a few times. Oh me lol I just crack up thinking about it. Anyhow Pocket you did a good job of debating while I was doing that and you was being serious. I applaud your patience, but I'm sure you noticed it wasn't you I was poking.

You think basic argumentation, like backing up what you say, is intro university stuff? Sucks to be you. You know, this isn't a difficult topic. We both have access to the same material. I'm not expecting anything from you or anyone else that takes more than the basic understanding that merely stating something doesn't automatically make it worth sharing. It's not elitist to provide factual evidence before saying it has been provided, or to breathe through your nose.

Modifié par MarloMarlo, 25 mars 2010 - 09:39 .

[Jebel Krong]

Terror_K wrote...

i could easily see micromanaging inventory for 10 squaddies becoming more tedious than planet-scanning as well.

No direct offense intended, but I can't think of a more polite way to put this, so bear with me: are gamers so ADD-addled these days that they find even the tiniest bit of customisation where you have to break away from the action for more than 10 seconds to be tedious and "micro-management" now? I mean, do people honestly consider the ME2 armour system to me "too micro-management" as well now that there are armour pieces? Sounds like Diablo 2 would give people a heart-attack these days. No wonder games are being so dumbed-down these days.

people bang on about customisable armour, but (stupid helmets aside) you do have pretty good customisation of your own n7 armour, and squaddies outfits, imo are unique and a lot better than the slightly ridiculous notion of you choosing what everyone wears. the characters are more individual now.

I dunno... I personally find the notion of most of these people running around with no protection whatsoever into battle and avoiding the effects of the void of space via nothing but a little face-mask rather more ridiculous than being able to choose what they wear. As for the N7 armour, most of it is purely cosmetic, as the pieces have no real stats and are so few that one can easily just stick with the default armour and it makes no difference.

taking your latter point, i prefer say, miranda's outfit, to some big bulky unfeminine armour a la ashley. admittedly it's a petty preference thing, but notions of "unrealistic" are moot in a science-fiction game of this nature (the sudden switch to thermal clips for every weapon being a far bigger issue for me).

as for your first point: no i'm not so ADD-addled that i can't do it, but i did find that i spent so much time in menus changing armour/mods in mass effect 1 that it kind of ruined the flow of the game at times - mass effect 2 maintained that aspect much better the way it handled upgrades. the me2 armour system, as i said already, was flexible enough - dlc one-pieces or customisable N7 to sate most desires, but limiting you to doing it in-between missions on ship meant that you did it in your own time, not during missions etc. you can put as much time in as you like, but are not forced to all the time, either.