874 réponses à ce sujet

[JKoopman]

Christina Norman wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

The shooter mechanics in ME1 were ridiculous early in the game.  Yeah, they exaggerated the assault rifle accuracy issue, but not by much.  

The honest to goodness truth is, I fired up my ME1 dev build, started recording in fraps, and just played the first fight on eden prime. That's how that video got made. I wasn't trying to ham it up to make the assault rifle look extra terrible. That's what it's like. Maybe my aiming skills aren't super awesome, but I'd say they are average +! It's hard to aim when your reticle is so wide.

But you didn't aim. That's just it. It's just a video of you running around, never stopping, while pointing in the general direction of the enemy and holding the trigger down until your weapon overheats. At no point do you a) take cover, stop moving to steady your aim or c) actually shoulder your weapon. To say that's not "hamming it up to make the assault rifle look extra terrible" is, I think, a bit disingenuous considering that weapons are just as inaccurate in ME2 when fired "from the hip".

Modifié par JKoopman, 14 mars 2010 - 07:22 .

[Pocketgb]

Her vid of AR accuracy was indeed a bit faulty.

But she's definitely right in saying it was total crap. Leveling ARs was crap, the gear curve was crap, ARs were crap. For my first Insanity playthrough with a new character I literally cringed when I clicked to fire the Lancer I, and that cringe didn't disappear until I picked up a Tsunami.

Especially when assault rifles *are* your favorite weapon, playing as a Soldier was pretty miserable. It only got "viable" when you leveled it to max and picked up the Spectre grade weapons.

Modifié par Pocketgb, 14 mars 2010 - 07:33 .

[JKoopman]

Pocketgb wrote...

Her vid of AR accuracy was indeed a bit faulty.

But she's definitely right in saying it was total crap. Leveling ARs was crap, the gear curve was crap, ARs were crap. For my first Insanity playthrough with a new character I literally cringed when I clicked to fire the Lancer I, and that cringe didn't disappear until I picked up a Tsunami.

Especially when assault rifles *are* your favorite weapon, playing as a Soldier was pretty miserable. It only got "viable" when you leveled it to max and picked up the Spectre grade weapons.

I never really had much trouble even at lvl 1 on Eden Prime using my assault rifle. As long as you use cover, take aim and fire in short bursts you can pretty much always hit what you're shooting at. Granted, once you get your AR skill maxed and pick up a Spectre weapon it becomes substantially easier, but it's far from impossible to shoot straight early on and it's certainly nowhere near as bad as that video makes it out to be.

[Pocketgb]

I didn't have much issue either, but that's not really the point. Leveling strictly ARs was the most stressful choice of the four. I did a whole playthrough using an AR for most of every encounter, but it wasn't too comforting noting how much smoother (and just as beneficial) it was going Pistols.

[Meistr_Chef]

Octorox wrote...

 I've been constantly saying this but nobody has really commented on it yet: looting is morally deplorable. Raiding safes and dead corpses for shiny new weapons and armor is very Renegadey. Changing your squads armor and loadouts in the middle of a mission also felt very weird to me in a sci-fi military based game. It didn't help to cement you in the world. It didn't make you feel like a commander who made realistic tactical decisions, more like a bandit and scavenger. That said, I do want to see a bit more variety in weapons and armor as now it's pretty much a linear system. I'd like the player to have more ability to branch out. Maybe replace the linear upgrade system with part-by-part weapon crafting. Multiple scopes, heatsinks etc. that can be swapped around would give you a lot more variety than ME2 with a lot less crap to manage than ME1.

Yes agreed. I don't know what Bioware is going to do with ME3 but I hope they don't put in a full blown inventory ala RPG games of old. More upgrades with branching and differentiating characteristics yes...thousands of lootable items NO.  As you can see I've been trying to wring a good answer from members here about their obsession with inventories and all I get is basically "yeah we need to feel that we are gaining material posessions" ...WTF...that's like the shallowest reason for things to exist in a game about meaningful choices. It's too deep rooted in the identity of an RPG that some need it like crack. Sigh.

Modifié par Meistr_Chef, 14 mars 2010 - 08:05 .

[FlyingWalrus]

It was said best in the blog: inventory and looting systems = sacred cows.

[Ski Mask Wei]

Unato wrote...

the game sold over 2 million copies, last checked I don't think there's even 100K ppl on this forum. whatever the complaints on this forum are, it's hardly representative of a lot of ppl. the dev comments are interesting tho I gave you that

I hope Bioware realizes this because I LOVE how ME2 turned out.  To me it's what Bioware was trying to do with Jade Empire but they actually suceeded.  I LOVE the fact ME2 is a really good game without the RPG elements.  I could actually play ME2 with no story elements what-so-ever and still ENJOY it which I can't say for any other RPG I've ever played maybe except for Panzer Dragoon Saga.  I LIKE the fact I can't throw Collosus XXX on all my characters and call it a night.  Miranda actually has an ass because of this.  You think Bioware's going to redo all those armors for different body proportions?  I love Bioware. I do, but I know they're not gonna do that.  I like the fact that everybody has their own look and I'd rather see Garrus's reach than see Jack rock some Predator armor.  Inventory can stay lost for all I care.  You want phat lootz, play Wo-The Old Republic.

Anyway, my gameplay wishlist for ME3 is short, I want:

1.Normal weapon variety to be as diverse as heavy weapon variety.

2.More armor pieces.  I just want new looks, I don't care about the stats.

3. A vault command to jump cover without taking cover.  Something like Y+B would be nice.

4.Smarter Squad AI for Insanity.  I should actually want to rez them when they die.

5.More diverse power evolution.
     

[Pocketgb]

gmartin40 wrote...

FlyingWalrus wrote...

It was said best in the blog: inventory and looting systems = sacred cows.

I don't get it...

Google says:

"A person, place or thing unreasonably held to be immune to criticism."

[Grizzly46]

Meistr_Chef wrote...

Octorox wrote...

 I've been constantly saying this but nobody has really commented on it yet: looting is morally deplorable. Raiding safes and dead corpses for shiny new weapons and armor is very Renegadey. Changing your squads armor and loadouts in the middle of a mission also felt very weird to me in a sci-fi military based game. It didn't help to cement you in the world. It didn't make you feel like a commander who made realistic tactical decisions, more like a bandit and scavenger. That said, I do want to see a bit more variety in weapons and armor as now it's pretty much a linear system. I'd like the player to have more ability to branch out. Maybe replace the linear upgrade system with part-by-part weapon crafting. Multiple scopes, heatsinks etc. that can be swapped around would give you a lot more variety than ME2 with a lot less crap to manage than ME1.

Yes agreed. I don't know what Bioware is going to do with ME3 but I hope they don't put in a full blown inventory ala RPG games of old. More upgrades with branching and differentiating characteristics yes...thousands of lootable items NO.  As you can see I've been trying to wring a good answer from members here about their obsession with inventories and all I get is basically "yeah we need to feel that we are gaining material posessions" ...WTF...that's like the shallowest reason for things to exist in a game about meaningful choices. It's too deep rooted in the identity of an RPG that some need it like crack. Sigh.

I fully agree. Whilst I think inventory do has a place in many RPGs, it went way too far in ME1, but was kind of fine in ME2, if yet, as I've already stated, in a too polished state (that is, they polished off a little too much). What I'm trying to say is that an inventory as in say Planescape, Neverwinter Nights, Baldurs Gate etc, had a real purpose - you had to have it so you could carry letters, valuables, tools and whatever.
In ME1 you had to carry boatloads of weapons and upgrades, and it didn't make sense - if you find a weapon in the field that seems better than the current weapon you have, you ditch the old weapon immediately, not carry it around waiting for a chance to sell it.

On the other hand, in ME2 when finding a new weapon or an upgrade, you did a scan of the item in question and carried it as a computer file - which won't add any weight. This was kind of fine too, but it did remove that nice feeling of having another backup weapon you had in games like Baldurs Gate. And there you HAD to have backup weapons until the first magical weapon showed up, simply because weapons could break. Bloody orgasmic in inventory sense IMO.

So, I think it's a balancing act, but when comparing the inventory systems of ME1 and 2 I take the ME2 any day.

[Vaeliorin]

FlyingWalrus wrote...
It was said best in the blog: inventory and looting systems = sacred cows.

They may be sacred cows, but sacred hamburgers aren't always good.

Though admittedly, the whole inventory/no inventory thing in ME2 doesn't bother me.  It's simply the lack of proper armor for squadmates that does.

Modifié par Vaeliorin, 14 mars 2010 - 08:54 .

[FlyingWalrus]

Vaeliorin wrote...

FlyingWalrus wrote...
It was said best in the blog: inventory and looting systems = sacred cows.

They may be sacred cows, but sacred hamburgers aren't always good.

Though admittedly, the whole inventory/no inventory thing in ME2 doesn't bother me.  It's simply the lack of proper armor for squadmates that does.

Agreed.

[Tasker]

[quote]Destructo-Bot wrote...

Heat Sinks
Don't like playing garbage collector and scrounging sinks after a fight. Don't like being forced out of a favored weapon due to ammo. Don't like not having an infinite ammo weapon (staple in shooters) to fall back on. Pistols should be cooling instead of heatsinked.

Ammo per class
Why do infiltrators and vanguards have the same ammo capacity for snipers and shotguns as everyone else when the class is supposed to focus on that particular weapon? This ends with the class primarily using their SECONDARY weapon that actually has reserve ammo to save their "PRIMARY" for when they may need it.

[/quote]

Same here, especially when the precedent that weapons don't need reloading has already been set.

Heat sinks were introduced to combat certain mods that made it so the weapons didn't overheat... I still don't understand how this was seen as an issue when you consider ME1 is a SINGLE PLAYER GAME.  If people don't like the mods then all they have to do is not use the figgin things. 


[quote]Destructo-Bot wrote...

Cover
Cover STILL isn't "safe". Harbinger or whatever knocks you out of cover, then you adrenaline hammer the action key to get back into cover. Instead of taking cover your character vaults over the cover and into the direct line of fire of two heavy mechs. The key that saves your life is also the key that gets you killed.

[/quote]

I agree whole heartedly.

I hated it when i'd be trying to run down a corridor and all of a sudden I get sucked sideways and snap into cover on the wrong side.  The amount of times I had to reload because of the stupid run, cover and vault system this game uses was rediculous. 
 

[quote]Destructo-Bot wrote...

Ammo Powers
CONSTANTLY REACTIVATING THE ****ING POWERS EVERY ****ING TIME I ****ING QUICK LOAD. The ammo "power" should be permanent, NOT PER MISSION, NOT PER LOAD, NOT PER GAME... PERMANENT. They are there until I choose to change them. So very, very, very irritating to cycle through all my weapons and reapply ammo powers EVERY ****ING TIME to EVERY ****ING GUN. P.S. This in particular annoys me, you may not have caught that.

[/quote]

What I still can't get over is the fact that ammo was turned into powers in the first place.

They share cooldowns with the rest of the powers and It's retarded that all of a sudden I know how to load ammo A, but don't know how to load ammo B.

Surely they'd use a standard clip design? 
Oh silly me, they used to but they were called mods.

Not to mention the ability to give those ammo types to my team mates is now an upgrade... An upgrade, really? 

So my squad mates are that thick they don't know how to load a clip and I just wake up one day with the idea... " Wow, i've just had a brainwave, what if I get my team mates to give me their guns and I load the ammo for them?"

Pure genius.


[quote]Destructo-Bot wrote...

Inventory
We LIKE inventories. We don't like BAD inventories. ME1 had a BAD inventory and a glut of useless items with no sorting and grouping options. Improve and not remove was what many were expecting.

[/quote]

Exactly, I keep saying that if they took ME1s inventory, added a mass omni-gel option, automatically put everything with the same name into stacks and halved the number of levels things were found in, then the system would work brilliantly.


[quote]Destructo-Bot wrote...

Armor Designer/Character Designer
This is good but it needs more options and more colors. I miss the look of Colossus and Rage armors. Good start. Everyone wants more personalization options (hair styles, clothes, etc) so...

[/quote]

How Bioware could take two steps forward with the players N7 armour and then take three backwards with the team mate and DLC armour is beyond me.


[quote]Destructo-Bot wrote...

Game Options
If you are shooter, where are the reticule options? FOV options? You know what I want to do as a sniper? When I blast someone with a headshot and they have 1 point of health left I want to a key to quick draw my sidearm and put them down and then the sidearm is put away and the rifle re-raised.[/quote]

Not something i've ever thought about to be honest, but I can see your point.


[quote]Destructo-Bot wrote...

Fatigue
Why can a trained super-soldier like Shepard only run 10 feet at a time. Let us RUN dammit! If we aren't in a fight we should be able to run for quite a long time. Get rid of the silly fatigue outside of combat. And if you are going to HAVE fatigue, DON'T REMOVE THE FREAKING FATIGUE METER. The only difference between ME1 and ME2 is that I now just end up HAMMERING the STORM key OVER AND OVER until it works.[/quote]

Aye, it's bloody stupid that outside of combat I still have a fatigue meter.  Stop-start-stop-start is bloody annoying, but then they seem to have modeled the whole game around that principal so I guess it shouldn't surprise me.



[quote]Nick Fox wrote...

Kudos to Christina for posting this info. However if I were on the team and seen that presentation I would laid in my veto asap! Or walked out that door and not come back. What a mad house, you excel at one thing but decide to try and go for a totally different thing in a franchise that you havent ever done before? In a sequal too ? Yay great thinking indeed. I am almost baffeld on how stupid one can get really.
If this was the nr 1 game of a new trilogy then by all means go ahead and knock yourself out and try "new and different" gengers rather than doing what you do best. For a sequal however....
I just dont get how that idea ever got the notion, I cant belive it. Rehab for every soul on that team is on the hrorizon or all is lost. I mean how on earth do you think the concept of making another shooter is going to bring you anything but a so so product in the end ? How much hybris can you get ?

[/quote]

Again this is something i've been saying all along...

If you're going to completely change game mechanics you don't do it in a sequel.


[quote]Nick Fox wrote...
 
When it comes to reviwes and the score nowdays it means so little to the older playing crowds and its more like a internal club for wannabes (my opinion on many of them), these scores means nothing absolutley nothing anymore. Ign and the likes just isnt doing what they are supposed to do anymore. they act more like hyping machines for ceartain developers, diferent rules for diferent devlopers. Use reviwes/reasearch and knowledge to actually tell what a game is today. The ability is clearly not there at lest not for this game. Anybody that plays Me 2 for more than 3 hours sees that this is nothing but shooter, but no its such a deep rpg bla bla.....credibility.....noway in...
[/quote]

Exactly.
 
Good reviews don't mean that you've made good changes.
Good reviews don't mean that you've made a good sequel.

Individualy an FPS could get 90% and an RTS could get 98%...

That doesn't mean that as a sequel, making an RTS to follow on from a FPS is a good idea.


[quote]JKoopman wrote...

[quote]Christina Norman wrote...

[quote]CmdrFenix83 wrote...

The shooter mechanics in ME1 were ridiculous early in the game.  Yeah, they exaggerated the assault rifle accuracy issue, but not by much.  

[/quote]

The honest to goodness truth is, I fired up my ME1 dev build, started recording in fraps, and just played the first fight on eden prime. That's how that video got made. I wasn't trying to ham it up to make the assault rifle look extra terrible. That's what it's like. Maybe my aiming skills aren't super awesome, but I'd say they are average +! It's hard to aim when your reticle is so wide.

[/quote]

But you didn't aim. That's just it. It's just a video of you running around, never stopping, while pointing in the general direction of the enemy and holding the trigger down until your weapon overheats. At no point do you a) take cover, stop moving to steady your aim or c) actually shoulder your weapon. To say that's not "hamming it up to make the assault rifle look extra terrible" is, I think, a bit disingenuous considering that weapons are just as inaccurate in ME2 when fired "from the hip".
[/quote]

Almost as if she wanted it to come across as crap.

It's easy to make something look broken if you don't put the effort in to use it how it was intended.



It's just insulting that they're trying to justify poor decisions and bad design choices by making out it was exactly what they thought we wanted.

Really? We stated what we wanted on the old forums and what we got was nothing like what we asked for.

Modifié par Orkboy, 14 mars 2010 - 09:31 .

[ToJKa1]

Always nice to hear (or read in this case) what developers were thinking when designing the game, i for one think ME2 is a major improvement over ME1, but also hope ME3 will have the best features of both games. To me ME2 just feels a bit too much like a generic third-person shooter, mainly because combat and interaction sequences are so clearly separated. Not to mention "Mission Complete" screen.

[FlyingWalrus]

Orkboy, if you don't make improvements or changes to a game series in a sequel (INCLUDING the overhaul and even elimination of cumbersome game mechanics), then what's the point? And if a glowing review of a game doesn't mean that good changes have been made, that a good sequel has been made, then what does? I'm one of these "older gamers" and I still feel that game reviews have some relevance. No one in their right minds would give a good review to a throwaway game. Sadly, some games that do end up getting great reviews end up in the bargain bin because they are too niche or unusual for the mainstream consumer.

Changes were made that you didn't like. Cry more. The fact of the matter is that after a while, "looting" became pointless. Pointless! UTTERLY AND COMPLETELY POINTLESS. How many Frictionless Materials VII-IX and Inferno Rounds X did I dissolve into omni-gel that would serve no purpose but to further expediate the next safe cracking that would yield even MORE merchant trash that, in the end, yielded no less than an atrocious 6,000,000 credits by the time I finished the game? What you guys seem to want is a return to the monotony that did get chopped out, something that BioWare seems not too keen on going back to themselves. If ritual monotony is what makes an RPG an RPG, well, I'm glad that the definition of RPG is being blurred now, eh?

Wehell, if you didn't enjoy ME2, maybe it's time to jump ship and never look back, because, from the sounds of it, ME3 is going to differ little from ME2.

I think what could be improved is the removal of the "Mission Accomplished" debriefing screens and the like removal of the generic loading screens. Elevators with squad banter was so much more welcome as a loading device than a computer rendering of some schematic.

Modifié par FlyingWalrus, 14 mars 2010 - 09:38 .

[Aratham Darksight]

It's official: numbers and graphs are the sole requirement to please today's RPG players.

Numbers and graphs without depth or meaningful choice = RPG
Choice and depth without graphs and numbers = not RPG

I guess Penny Arcade understands players much better than I do.

Modifié par Aratham Darksight, 14 mars 2010 - 09:39 .

[DarknessBear]

Anyone got a link to the video of Christina demonstrating the Assault rifle accuracy?

And all the people saying, "Everything is perfect in ME2!" and berating those that say any disappointments or flaws they had with the game are not helping any! What do you think ME2 would be if people did not express their dislikes for certain aspects in ME1? 

Modifié par DarknessBear, 14 mars 2010 - 10:00 .

[Tasker]

FlyingWalrus wrote...

Orkboy, if you don't make improvements or changes to a game series in a sequel (INCLUDING the overhaul and even elimination of cumbersome game mechanics), then what's the point? And if a glowing review of a game doesn't mean that good changes have been made, that a good sequel has been made, then what does?

I agree, improvents and changes can be a good thing, if well thought out, maintain the same feel and done properly.

How scrapping things that just needed a couple of tweaks to get working brilliantly can be classed as improvements though, is beyond me.

Making wholesale changes for the sake of change is stupid.

Take the HUD... There was nothing wrong with the HUD in ME1, but they changed it from an elegant simple system that was really easy to work out at a glance, into a confusing ugly mess that doesn't even tell you what you need to know.

FlyingWalrus wrote...

Changes were made that you didn't like. Cry more. The fact of the matter is that after a while, "looting" became pointless. Pointless! UTTERLY AND COMPLETELY POINTLESS. How many Frictionless Materials VII-IX and Inferno Rounds X did I dissolve into omni-gel that would serve no purpose but to further expediate the next safe cracking that would yield even MORE merchant trash that, in the end, yielded no less than an atrocious 6,000,000 credits by the time I finished the game? What you guys seem to want is a return to the monotony that did get chopped out, something that BioWare seems not too keen on going back to themselves.

Damn right changes were made that I didn't like, but why shouldn't I state that I didn't like them?

Yes we ended up with loads of stuff that was no use, that's one of the things that should have been looked at intelegently, rather than the blanket "Just bin it we can't be arsed." approach.

If something isn't working right, you fix it, you don't scrap it all together.

A simple solution would have been to have mods as consumables, they run out after a while and you have to install new ones.

There you go, I just thought of that now and it already solves the problem of looting too many of the same thing.

Now, don't go compairing that idea to the thermal clip issue, thermal clips are a necessity, mods arn't.

FlyingWalrus wrote...

Wehell, if you didn't enjoy ME2, maybe it's time to jump ship and never look back, because, from the sounds of it, ME3 is going to differ little from ME2.

At no point have I ever said that I didn't enjoy the game, but I enjoyed it in the same way I enjoyed Command and Conquer, Forza 3 and Halo.

I enjoyed it because it was a good game, and it is a good game.

But as a sequel to ME1 it's ****** poor.

I've played ME1 so many times i've lost count, and I've managed all achivements on two seperate xboxs.

ME2, I can't be arsed with any more and I reckon it'll be a long time before I get all the achivements for it.  And ME2 achivements are easier to get.

FlyingWalrus wrote...

I think what could be improved is the removal of the "Mission Accomplished" debriefing screens and the like removal of the generic loading screens. Elevators with squad banter was so much more welcome as a loading device than a computer rendering of some schematic.

Couldn't agree more.

The mission screens should have been a seperate tab on the personal terminal with a message popup telling us that we could look at it if we wanted, not because we have to.

Transitions are appauling in ME2 compaired to ME1, and infact the sense of immersion as a whole is totally screwed up.

Modifié par Orkboy, 14 mars 2010 - 10:02 .

[Terror_K]

The two things I actually want to see go the most actually are those "Mission Complete" screens and the awful new HUD. I'd automatically be happier with ME3 if only those two aspects were thrown away.

[Meistr_Chef]

Orkboy wrote...

FlyingWalrus wrote...

Changes were made that you didn't like. Cry more. The fact of the matter is that after a while, "looting" became pointless. Pointless! UTTERLY AND COMPLETELY POINTLESS. How many Frictionless Materials VII-IX and Inferno Rounds X did I dissolve into omni-gel that would serve no purpose but to further expediate the next safe cracking that would yield even MORE merchant trash that, in the end, yielded no less than an atrocious 6,000,000 credits by the time I finished the game? What you guys seem to want is a return to the monotony that did get chopped out, something that BioWare seems not too keen on going back to themselves.

Damn right changes were made that I didn't like, but why shouldn't I state that I didn't like them?

Yes we ended up with loads of stuff that was no use, that's one of the things that should have been looked at intelegently, rather than the blanket "Just bin it we can't be arsed." approach.

If something isn't working right, you fix it, you don't scrap it all together.

A simple solution would have been to have mods as consumables, they run out after a while and you have to install new ones.

There you go, I just thought of that now and it already solves the problem of looting too many of the same thing.

You did not solve the problem. You just made the game annoying in another sense; the need to check and replace "worn" items, which is dreary micromanaging aspect. Also, the rate of ME1 loot gain was pretty high; you'd get stuff faster than you wear them out; and if you make things wear out too quickly you run the risk of pissing the player off because his mods ran out at an unopportune time. Also, you cannot be consuming all random loot at the same rate, since you're probably consuming only your favorite items, so another hiccup; uneven wear and replace problems.

If only game design were as easy you make it out to be.

Modifié par Meistr_Chef, 14 mars 2010 - 10:02 .