874 réponses à ce sujet

[Chala]

all right it's seems that mi little thread has grown up from the night to the morning. did I miss something?

[SurfaceBeneath]

Jebel Krong wrote...
case in point: how on earth could the heat-sink fiasco be less of an issue than the armour system? seriously?! weapon upgrading is fine, though under-explained and developed, perhaps, but the ammo system is terrible, and hobbles certain classes.

The only class appreciably limited by their ammo limit is the Infiltrator, who also happens to arguably be the most powerful class in the game. So in their case, their balanced against their low ammo count for their main weapon.

Vanguards would be a potential canidate for this problem, but their playstyle constantly puts them in their enemy's faces so ammo isn't really a problem. And you can upgrade Shotguns halfway through the game to have their ammo capicity increased to the point where you should never run out of ammo.

Seriously, the heat sink system, while lore breaking (I don't care what Bioware says with the whole "Geth Technology thing", it's a retcon plain and simple), worked very smoothly.

EDIT: Just so I'm keeping on topic, a very good read. I wish I could have seen the entire presentation as Christina gave it, as I feel that there is definitely some context missing without it. However, it's pretty amazing how much Bioware really cares about the opinions of their fans while still trying to, in many ways, expand the boundaries of the game past what many are comfortable with. Also, nice to see more RPG elements coming in the third (I hope they don't revert back to the old RPG elements they cut out) as well as the mention of "keeping the same team"

Modifié par SurfaceBeneath, 14 mars 2010 - 01:59 .

[WillieStyle]

FlyingWalrus wrote...

Orkboy, if you don't make improvements or changes to a game series in a sequel (INCLUDING the overhaul and even elimination of cumbersome game mechanics), then what's the point? And if a glowing review of a game doesn't mean that good changes have been made, that a good sequel has been made, then what does? I'm one of these "older gamers" and I still feel that game reviews have some relevance. No one in their right minds would give a good review to a throwaway game. Sadly, some games that do end up getting great reviews end up in the bargain bin because they are too niche or unusual for the mainstream consumer.

Changes were made that you didn't like. Cry more. The fact of the matter is that after a while, "looting" became pointless. Pointless! UTTERLY AND COMPLETELY POINTLESS. How many Frictionless Materials VII-IX and Inferno Rounds X did I dissolve into omni-gel that would serve no purpose but to further expediate the next safe cracking that would yield even MORE merchant trash that, in the end, yielded no less than an atrocious 6,000,000 credits by the time I finished the game? What you guys seem to want is a return to the monotony that did get chopped out, something that BioWare seems not too keen on going back to themselves. If ritual monotony is what makes an RPG an RPG, well, I'm glad that the definition of RPG is being blurred now, eh?

^This.
What we have here is a case of irreconcilable differences.  Some people like the "lottery" effect of picking up loot and sifting through it for the rare gem that you'll actually use.  I and others hated it.
I and others like the challenge of limitted ammo, powers that pull you out of cover, others hate it.
I find that even though ME2 only has 19 weapons, it has FAR more weapon choices than ME1.  In ME1, there was really only 1 choice for each weapon class: spectre VII weapons upgraded to Spectre X.  And the various weapon brands didn't feel different. In ME2, the Widow is extremely memorable and it FEELL very different from the Viper.  The Carnifax Handcannon feels very different from the Predator.  I'd much rather have a few meaningful choices than hundreds of meaningless ones.

Some have suggesed combining the best of ME1 and ME2 as a compromise; but really, I prefer almost every single change that was made in ME2. The only thing I'd like back is weapon mods but only if they are ballanced and add real choices.  No double scram rails or explosive rounds please.

[Gemini1179]

While awkward at first, I do not miss the inventory too much. That said, this is a "be careful what you wish for" situation if I ever saw one and what really concerns me is what criteria BW uses for "listening to the community". Is it 100 posts on one subject? 1000? If so, it plays more to the loudest segment of the player community and not necessarily the most rational.



For example, I keep reading posts of people saying they didn't mind or even miss the elevator rides from ME1 (myself included) but a lot of game reviews I read in the past and other forums talking about ME1 had so many bad things to say about the elevators. Same went for the Mako.



I don't think the Mako needed to be taken out of the game. An update to the controls, yes. Imagine if the Mako had XYZ axis thrusters on the front and back so that if you bounced off a hill, but were still driving forward, these thrusters would auto correct your spin in the air to attempt to keep you on your line.



Problem solved.

[WillieStyle]

SurfaceBeneath wrote...

Jebel Krong wrote...
case in point: how on earth could the heat-sink fiasco be less of an issue than the armour system? seriously?! weapon upgrading is fine, though under-explained and developed, perhaps, but the ammo system is terrible, and hobbles certain classes.

The only class appreciably limited by their ammo limit is the Infiltrator, who also happens to arguably be the most powerful class in the game. So in their case, their balanced against their low ammo count for their main weapon.

The Infiltrator is my favourite class. I've completed the game 3 times as an Infiltrator; twice on Insanity.  I have run out of Sniper Rifle ammo a grand total of 7 times; 5 of which were on my first playthrough when I didn't know what I was doing.
Running out of ammo is a strategy/skill issue, not a game design issue.

[Gemini1179]

WillieStyle wrote...

FlyingWalrus wrote...

Orkboy, if you don't make improvements or changes to a game series in a sequel (INCLUDING the overhaul and even elimination of cumbersome game mechanics), then what's the point? And if a glowing review of a game doesn't mean that good changes have been made, that a good sequel has been made, then what does? I'm one of these "older gamers" and I still feel that game reviews have some relevance. No one in their right minds would give a good review to a throwaway game. Sadly, some games that do end up getting great reviews end up in the bargain bin because they are too niche or unusual for the mainstream consumer.

Changes were made that you didn't like. Cry more. The fact of the matter is that after a while, "looting" became pointless. Pointless! UTTERLY AND COMPLETELY POINTLESS. How many Frictionless Materials VII-IX and Inferno Rounds X did I dissolve into omni-gel that would serve no purpose but to further expediate the next safe cracking that would yield even MORE merchant trash that, in the end, yielded no less than an atrocious 6,000,000 credits by the time I finished the game? What you guys seem to want is a return to the monotony that did get chopped out, something that BioWare seems not too keen on going back to themselves. If ritual monotony is what makes an RPG an RPG, well, I'm glad that the definition of RPG is being blurred now, eh?

^This.
What we have here is a case of irreconcilable differences.  Some people like the "lottery" effect of picking up loot and sifting through it for the rare gem that you'll actually use.  I and others hated it.
I and others like the challenge of limitted ammo, powers that pull you out of cover, others hate it.
I find that even though ME2 only has 19 weapons, it has FAR more weapon choices than ME1.  In ME1, there was really only 1 choice for each weapon class: spectre VII weapons upgraded to Spectre X.  And the various weapon brands didn't feel different. In ME2, the Widow is extremely memorable and it FEELL very different from the Viper.  The Carnifax Handcannon feels very different from the Predator.  I'd much rather have a few meaningful choices than hundreds of meaningless ones.

Some have suggesed combining the best of ME1 and ME2 as a compromise; but really, I prefer almost every single change that was made in ME2. The only thing I'd like back is weapon mods but only if they are ballanced and add real choices.  No double scram rails or explosive rounds please.

Agreed, agreed, agreed. I hope Christina Norman is reading this thread, and specifically these posts.

[TheSleazebag]

Mass Effect 2 was pretty much an improvement in every way over the first one, except for perhaps item customization, which honestly wasn't that good in the first one to start with, with all the useless upgrades nobody used anyway



Really the things I wish they'd do next is more weapons and yeah weapon customization I guess, and maybe some changes to the interrupt system (so that you can have both a paragon and a renegade choice at the same time) and that it'd be more important in certain scenes



And I guess what I miss from other bioware rpgs is party interaction in that the party members talk to each other more and not just Shepard

[TheConfidenceMan]

Nice to see at least the acknowlegement that ME2 is lacking as a RPG, something Bioware was curiously adamant was not the case before the game was released.

That said I don't have much faith that ME3 will be any different/better than 2 as long as the same people are involved. I mean, they can't even come up with a workable inventory? Honestly? Just find one from another game that's acceptable and rip it off.

Same with the skill layout. I'd love to hear what Christina said about that slide with ME1's upgrade screen, where underneath it says "I don't even know what all this stuff is". Is that why the skill and upgrade system was dumbed down so badly? Maybe someone who does get it should be doing the designing instead.

[SurfaceBeneath]

Gemini1179 wrote...
For example, I keep reading posts of people saying they didn't mind or even miss the elevator rides from ME1 (myself included) but a lot of game reviews I read in the past and other forums talking about ME1 had so many bad things to say about the elevators. Same went for the Mako.

I don't think the Mako needed to be taken out of the game. An update to the controls, yes. Imagine if the Mako had XYZ axis thrusters on the front and back so that if you bounced off a hill, but were still driving forward, these thrusters would auto correct your spin in the air to attempt to keep you on your line.

Problem solved.

Nobody is glad to see the intersquad banter in ME2 gone... but the elevators took far too long compared to ME2's very speedy load times (for PC anyway). Banter needs to come back in ME3... but lets have it more like in Dragon Age where you squad members talk to each other at specific segments of the mission or even better on the ship itself (perhaps as you're walking through the ship, squad members wander around and run into each other and start a chat once in a while).

Also, remember that it's not that they scrapped the Mako completely, they just couldn't get the Mako replacement out on time. End of the month and people will have their vehicular combat again.

[SurfaceBeneath]

TheConfidenceMan wrote...
Same with the skill layout. I'd love to hear what Christina said about that slide with ME1's upgrade screen, where underneath it says "I don't even know what all this stuff is". Is that why the skill and upgrade system was dumbed down so badly? Maybe someone who does get it should be doing the designing instead.

Were you born without sense of humor? Just asking because I don't want to make fun of someone with a genetic condition 

Modifié par SurfaceBeneath, 14 mars 2010 - 02:38 .

[WillieStyle]

TheConfidenceMan wrote...
Same with the skill layout. I'd love to hear what Christina said about that slide with ME1's upgrade screen, where underneath it says "I don't even know what all this stuff is". Is that why the skill and upgrade system was dumbed down so badly? Maybe someone who does get it should be doing the designing instead.

I'm an N7 marine (the equivalent of a Navy SEAL), but I need to level up and spend 12 points on Assault Rifles just to be able to hit the broad side of a barn at 10 paces with a standard issue weapon.  That's stupid. Removing it from the game wasn't dumbing it down, it was improving it.

When it comes to other skills, ME1 and ME2 had different systems.
System 1: Spend 12 points total on a skill. Get a ~3% bonus per point.  Every third point gives a game play bonus.  The 12th point evolves your skill.
System 2: Spend 4 points total on a skill. Get a ~10% bonus per ponit.  Every point gives a game play bonus.  The 4th point evolves your skill.
I will never understand the mentality of folks who think system 2 is a "dumbed down" version of system 1.

[kregano]

TheConfidenceMan wrote...
That said I don't have much faith that ME3 will be any different/better than 2 as long as the same people are involved. I mean, they can't even come up with a workable inventory? Honestly? Just find one from another game that's acceptable and rip it off.

Same with the skill layout. I'd love to hear what Christina said about that slide with ME1's upgrade screen, where underneath it says "I don't even know what all this stuff is". Is that why the skill and upgrade system was dumbed down so badly? Maybe someone who does get it should be doing the designing instead.

Ripping off another game's inventory will just unleash tons of people screaming about how Bioware has no creativity or something like that. And I have to say, when the lead gameplay designer has no idea what most of the stuff on the skill screen does, there's no frakking way most people who aren't diehard RPG fans are going to get it either. That said, I think ME2's skill system is sort of constraining, but I think Bioware can figure out a way to improve it.

[TheConfidenceMan]

I would hope it's a joke, but after seeing how badly gimped the upgrade/skill system is, one has to wonder...

[SurfaceBeneath]

TheConfidenceMan wrote...

I would hope it's a joke, but after seeing how badly gimped the upgrade/skill system is, one has to wonder...

Not unless you're looking to be offended, no.

[Grizzly46]

kregano wrote...

TheConfidenceMan wrote...
That said I don't have much faith that ME3 will be any different/better than 2 as long as the same people are involved. I mean, they can't even come up with a workable inventory? Honestly? Just find one from another game that's acceptable and rip it off.

Same with the skill layout. I'd love to hear what Christina said about that slide with ME1's upgrade screen, where underneath it says "I don't even know what all this stuff is". Is that why the skill and upgrade system was dumbed down so badly? Maybe someone who does get it should be doing the designing instead.

Ripping off another game's inventory will just unleash tons of people screaming about how Bioware has no creativity or something like that. And I have to say, when the lead gameplay designer has no idea what most of the stuff on the skill screen does, there's no frakking way most people who aren't diehard RPG fans are going to get it either. That said, I think ME2's skill system is sort of constraining, but I think Bioware can figure out a way to improve it.

The skill system in ME2 is one of the best upgrades a sequel has ever got - it is not part of the problem.

But, who buys and plays a game like Mass Effect? The people playing racer games? Very doubtful. I prefer RPGs over shooters, shooters over strategy, strategy over slashers, slashers over any racing games... The list goes on, and I doubt there are people out there that are just as interested in Mass Effect as I'm of Tiger Woods Golf. What I'm saying is that a developer (like Christina) is not equal to a gamer, and gamers come of different breeds as well. And if you are into RPGs, there are certain aspects of the concept you will naturally grasp, just as I have difficulties getting the rules and gaming concepts of golf or flight sims.

[TheConfidenceMan]

WillieStyle wrote...
I'm an N7 marine (the equivalent of a Navy SEAL), but I need to level up and spend 12 points on Assault Rifles just to be able to hit the broad side of a barn at 10 paces with a standard issue weapon.  That's stupid. Removing it from the game wasn't dumbing it down, it was improving it.

When it comes to other skills, ME1 and ME2 had different systems.
System 1: Spend 12 points total on a skill. Get a ~3% bonus per point.  Every third point gives a game play bonus.  The 12th point evolves your skill.
System 2: Spend 4 points total on a skill. Get a ~10% bonus per ponit.  Every point gives a game play bonus.  The 4th point evolves your skill.
I will never understand the mentality of folks who think system 2 is a "dumbed down" version of system 1.

That's laughably exaggerated. The starting accuracy was a perfectly reasonable base to build on, and with only a little investment in the skill you wouldn't even know the difference between the accuracy in ME and ME2. Maybe you feel you shouldn't have to invest in them at all because you're already a soldier, that's fine, they could have added other ways to progress in weapon handling like shortening reload times or unlocking feats like they had in ME1.

Now what they've done is completely removed the skill of the character informing the core gameplay, which is shooting, leaving the it completely in the hand of the player. For an RPG that's incredibly unrewarding. 

They did that in other ways too like hacking and bypassing. Now the skill of your character doesn't come into play at all, it's only the players skill at a stupid minigame.

As for the differences in the skill systems, it's more the skills that were removed as opposed to how many levels there are for any given skill. I really don't care whether there are 20 little increments or 4 large increments, there simply isn't a wide enough range of skills to feel like you're creating a customized character. Removing the hacking/bypassing skills, removing persuasion skills, healing skills, armor skills, etc... all adds up to fewer choices, fewer ways to customize, and less thought having to be put in what upgrades you choose, which is exaclty what dumbing down is.

[Tasker]

slimgrin wrote...

Its encouraging to see that Christina has read some of this stuff and responded as well.

Question is though, will she do anything about it?

Afterall, she's already basically told us to get stuffed over the helmet issue.

[Seraphael]

makenzieshepard wrote...

This is the most important image in the whole presentation and one a significant numbers of people on these boards really need to take to heart,

This is worth repeating (again).

[yoda23]

BlightWalker wrote...

Am I the only PC gamer who is disturbed by there only being the 360 versions shown and snippets like 'designed for 360' ?

no you are not.

[yoda23]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

BlightWalker wrote...

Am I the only PC gamer who is disturbed by there only being the 360 versions shown and snippets like 'designed for 360' ?

Any game on a console needs to be designed for said console first.  There's more limitations there.  Less buttons available to map, strict graphic and processing power limitations, etc.  PC games transferred to the consoles are just aweful there, however, console games brought to the PC don't lose nearly as much in the conversion.

Ex:  KotOR was perfectly fine on both X-Box and PC(xbox to PC port)  but Half-life was terrible on PS2(PC to console port)

So by this logic the PS3 and the Xbox versions would be different games? Really?

[yoda23]

Cross1280 wrote...

Mass Effect 1 and 2 were both designed primarily for the 360 first and then ported to the PC, unlike Dragon Age which was created for the PC then ported to the 360 and PS3.

Um, the 360 is a PC. To be accurate the game was designed for the "controller" not the platform.

[kregano]

TheConfidenceMan wrote...

WillieStyle wrote...
I'm an N7 marine (the equivalent of a Navy SEAL), but I need to level up and spend 12 points on Assault Rifles just to be able to hit the broad side of a barn at 10 paces with a standard issue weapon.  That's stupid. Removing it from the game wasn't dumbing it down, it was improving it.

When it comes to other skills, ME1 and ME2 had different systems.
System 1: Spend 12 points total on a skill. Get a ~3% bonus per point.  Every third point gives a game play bonus.  The 12th point evolves your skill.
System 2: Spend 4 points total on a skill. Get a ~10% bonus per ponit.  Every point gives a game play bonus.  The 4th point evolves your skill.
I will never understand the mentality of folks who think system 2 is a "dumbed down" version of system 1.

That's laughably exaggerated. The starting accuracy was a perfectly reasonable base to build on, and with only a little investment in the skill you wouldn't even know the difference between the accuracy in ME and ME2. Maybe you feel you shouldn't have to invest in them at all because you're already a soldier, that's fine, they could have added other ways to progress in weapon handling like shortening reload times or unlocking feats like they had in ME1.

Now what they've done is completely removed the skill of the character informing the core gameplay, which is shooting, leaving the it completely in the hand of the player. For an RPG that's incredibly unrewarding. 

They did that in other ways too like hacking and bypassing. Now the skill of your character doesn't come into play at all, it's only the players skill at a stupid minigame.

As for the differences in the skill systems, it's more the skills that were removed as opposed to how many levels there are for any given skill. I really don't care whether there are 20 little increments or 4 large increments, there simply isn't a wide enough range of skills to feel like you're creating a customized character. Removing the hacking/bypassing skills, removing persuasion skills, healing skills, armor skills, etc... all adds up to fewer choices, fewer ways to customize, and less thought having to be put in what upgrades you choose, which is exaclty what dumbing down is.

The base accuracy was in no way effective at all. I tried sniping the Geth on the train during the Eden Prime mission in my first playthrough and had to deal with the most shakey sniper rifle I have ever dealt with. Getting rid of weapon skills helped maintain immersion in ME2 because it didn't make it look like the Alliance was completely incompetent in selecting a person who couldn't use his/her weapons properly to be their Spectre candidate. Ditching the hacking/bypassing skill also helped, since it eliminated the need to drag one person along just so you could hack safes. That said, I wouldn't mind if tech classes got extra time to hack/bypass in ME3, but aside from that the devs made the right choice.

As for some of the other skills, I would like a single Persuade skill that opens up Paragon/Renegade options instead of only allowing the Paragon/Renegade meter to unlock dialogue and interupt options, since the current system penalizes neutral players. The rest of the ME1 skills were sort of a waste anyway, especially armor, since it made no sense that you would need to train to use the armor due to the fact that the armor doesn't do anything other than provide increased damage protection and shields. Most of them were utterly redunant since stuff like the healing skill only required one person in the party to have it affect everyone, so making Shepard have that was a waste of a skill.

[yoda23]

javierabegazo wrote...

Terror_K wrote...

http://img46.imagesh...entation23.jpg/

This is something more along the lines of what I'd like to have seen from ME2: so we can actually see the weapons various stats and not just get a vague blurb about the weapon. For ME3 I'd like to see something closer to this along with introducing more weapons of each type in the form of manufacturers.

I also hope they bring back the Manufacturers, perhaps along with quests relating to them as well, but at the same time, I hope they do it in a way that I still get attached to certain weapons, I didn't really feel attached much at all to any one weapon in ME1

+1