140 réponses à ce sujet

[Yeled]

CTM1 wrote...

Bugger it all, I knew one of the first things brought up would be "B-b-but what about our romance with her?"

So what? How does her not being a squadmate dash this? The only argument I've seen so far is "Bioware is not known for their non-squadmate romances; it never turns out well, hence taking her out of the gameplay is a bad move. " Entirely speculative. Just because it happened in Mass Effect 2 does not mean the same thing would happen in Mass Effect 3. Bioware is not stuck in a narrow path that demands interactivity is limited simply because a character is no longer part of the core gameplay mechanic.

Curious to see where this goes.

But you have to admit they've never done that in, what, 10 to 15 years using mostly the same formula.  So the speculation is based on a lot of evidence, with no evidence to the contrary.  The way they handled the ME1 LIs in ME2 is a pretty darn good example on which we have to base our speculation.

[jtav]

I agree with the OP. Liara is very interesting to me now precisely because of her status as an information broker and the way she's turning into her mother and obviously bothered by that. I would be very pleased if she took on a role similar to TIM in ME2.

And there is precedence for non-squadmate romance in the NWN OC.

[javierabegazo]

Nozybidaj, You ask me to close this on the basis of it being a "hate thread", I tell you to wait, because it was just discussion and less about character love/hate and you spam this thread with pics. You have a 24 hour timeout from posting. Do not spam again

Modifié par javierabegazo, 13 mars 2010 - 08:54 .

[AndroLeonidas]

MintyCool wrote...
If Bioware cares as much as they say they do about story in games, then they would
simply make Liara unplayable in ME3. Here’s why. The narrative potential for
Liara would be so much more fascinating if she was unplayable. I’ll get to why
this is later.

Actually many believe her storyline is more facinating when you can actually interact with her. Turning her into another Anderson does nothing but give a character that says the same things no matter how many times you go back to them.

The one thing that I find painfully annoying on these boards are the very loud but,
very small circle of people that seem to think that they are entitled to demand
Liara be playable in ME3. This drum beat happens every day on these boards and
I would just like to share my opposing view on the matter.

And I'm quite sure there are others who find your topic annoying. We do not go out and hit the other topics and spam Liara all over the place. It stays within one thread or two and her fan groups. If you are annoyed by this... my suggestion is don't go to them and read them.

Liara is an information broker now, someone who is in direct competition with the likes
of the Shadow Broker and The Illusive Man. I actually enjoyed this angle quite
bit. Up until this point the only non-playable ally you really had was
Anderson. Now with Anderson pulling strings at the Citadel, and Lirara obtaining
scoops of information whenever possible. Shepard is now finally developing a network that
gives him a fighting chance against the Reapers, Cerberous, The Shadow Broker,
and so on.

 
She is playing at being an information broker out of revenge. Nothing more. As evidenced by the awkwardness in her 'threats' and everything we have learned from the thre issues of the comics so far. It's also totally out of character for her from ME1

Also, think about the story possibilities for Liara going into ME3. For example, one
of the dialog options hints that Liara may become the one thing she’s trying to
defeat, the new Shadow Broker. This idea, that a former ally (or lover) would
turn on you in the end seems thrilling. Simply making Liara a squad mate will dilute
these opportunities.

While this is a legit possibility... I have never seen Bioware take a good character or love interest and turn them bad. Bastila Shan does not count because you knew you could redeem her before you ever faced her 'bad' character. 

Shepard will already have enough squad members to deal with in ME3. Having people of substance
to meet that are not playable, I find, are usually refreshing.

We have no inclination on who will be or will not be squad members. Any guess we make right now are just that. Guesses.

In the end though, it’s Bioware’s call. If I was one of the writers though, I would
think long and hard about the possibilities that may be lost in the ME
narrative if you do make Liara a squad mate and not an important contact for
Shepard to meet with. Hell, she can be a squad mate cameo if the story calls
for it, I’m fine with that. I just think she would be better served not being a
squad mate.

Thoughts?

In the end it is Bioware's call. However I don't see Bioware abandoning a vast majority of its fan base. At least I hope not. Mass Effect was their opportunity to reclaim my trust and money after the bungled job on the KOTOR series. (Granted most of it was not their fault)

If they do not somehow continue the romance with Liara in either a DLC or expansion and have her in ME3, I personally will no longer purchased Biware games.

Those are my thoughts.

[CTM1]

(in reference to a deleted post)
Heh, more troll posting. (EDIT: Nevermind, looks like it was deleted; oh well, I'll keep this up as it is.)

No one (no one seriously discussing this, anyway) is "hating" on Liara at all. I just want something that makes sense, and when it comes to Liara not being a squadmate in Mass Effect 3, the best way to make that happen. To me, it makes more sense if she's not a squadmate, given the path her storyline has taken, and so I'm inclined to believe the opposite would prove harder to justify.

Feel free to debate me on this point - just don't try to shut me down. I'm annoyed that some people here seem to believe taking the opposing view and discussing it is automatic grounds for censorship. I mean, really? C'mon guys. I'd like to believe the community is more fair-minded than that. Not everyone is going to argue something simply to ****** others off. Sometimes we argue something because (drum roll) we believe in what we're saying and want to help assure Mass Effect 3 is a better game because of it. Discussion and debate makes that possible - not mudslinging and browbeating.

Modifié par CTM1, 13 mars 2010 - 09:15 .

[javierabegazo]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

EDIT:  my post is useless, look away

Yup, and I coaxed that sweet lil' "DELETE" button that sits under every post. :happy:

To you who are thinking about spamming this thread:
I see one pic/comment posted by you that is attempted to combat the non existant hate in this thread, i.e. trying to derail this thread, I'll delete it. I see two pics, I might send you a warning. Or I might just simply slap you with the ban hammer for 24 hours so you can have some time learning about how to post in a discussion in a civil, coherent manner.

If after the 24 hours you continue to post spam, You might get your account plain banned from posting period. So play nice guys

Modifié par javierabegazo, 13 mars 2010 - 09:07 .

[Knoll Argonar]

I agree with OP, and there are really SOME characters that could take the advantage of not being squaddies, but being useful.



The most clear example for me is Mordin. He is just TOO old to Hold the Line properly, and I think that last mission was a bit too much for him. But he's hell of useful as a top researcher, and his view of the world may be great as wise-man (he tells you about your alien LI after all, Bioware could add further of that stuff). So, stay in the Normandy, but not in combat. Great Dialogue tree (more than Joker's and Kelly's) but without combat banter.



Other characters, like Tali, for example, aren't suited for that role because they are or too young (the "admiral"thingy's just for older quarians) or can't be done (she can get exiled).



But, for Liara, she being an information broker for you (in OR out of the Normandy), if her dialog tree is well handled, and her romance is also well developed (again, as if she was an squaddie without being so), I could definetly like that. And it makes sense if you think about her actual role and about her age and then her biotic power compared to other Asari comando-justicar like Shiala, Samara, Morinth or Aria. She's just not as suited for combat as those, but hell, she can be damn useful.



I like the idea, and if Bioware's capable of handle it well, I'd love it.

[AndroLeonidas]

javierabegazo wrote...

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

EDIT:  my post is useless, look away

Yup, and I coaxed that sweet lil' "DELETE" button that sits under every post. :happy:

To you who are thinking about spamming this thread:
I see one pic/comment posted by you that is attempted to combat the non existant hate in this thread, i.e. trying to derail this thread, I'll delete it. I see two pics, I might send you a warning. Or I might just simply slap you with the ban hammer for 24 hours so you can have some time learning about how to post in a discussion in a civil, coherent manner.

If after the 24 hours you continue to post spam, You might get your account plain banned from posting period. So play nice guys

Sorry... thought I was being accused of trolling for putting forth a differing view point than the OP. Did I post something wrong?

[Onyx Jaguar]

AndroLeonidas wrote...

javierabegazo wrote...

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

EDIT:  my post is useless, look away

Yup, and I coaxed that sweet lil' "DELETE" button that sits under every post. :happy:

To you who are thinking about spamming this thread:
I see one pic/comment posted by you that is attempted to combat the non existant hate in this thread, i.e. trying to derail this thread, I'll delete it. I see two pics, I might send you a warning. Or I might just simply slap you with the ban hammer for 24 hours so you can have some time learning about how to post in a discussion in a civil, coherent manner.

If after the 24 hours you continue to post spam, You might get your account plain banned from posting period. So play nice guys

Sorry... thought I was being accused of trolling for putting forth a differing view point than the OP. Did I post something wrong?

No no no, thats why I edited my other post.  The guy said that in response to someone else who put a picture up, but it was deleted so it looked like he was saying the post above him was trolling while in actuality that post was deleted.

[AndroLeonidas]

My post was deleted too. I just asked if what I said was trolling or something to that effect and that got deleted.

-ninja's in-
Nope, you're safe just cleaning up the thread

Modifié par javierabegazo, 13 mars 2010 - 10:03 .

[CTM1]

No, it was not. The moderator decided to delete the whole string of posts (along with the troll's) because it was redundant and derailing the conversation.

Much like this explanation currently is.

Modifié par CTM1, 13 mars 2010 - 09:17 .

[AndroLeonidas]

CTM1 wrote...

(in reference to a deleted post)
Heh, more troll posting. (EDIT: Nevermind, looks like it was deleted; oh well, I'll keep this up as it is.)

No one (no one seriously discussing this, anyway) is "hating" on Liara at all. I just want something that makes sense, and when it comes to Liara not being a squadmate in Mass Effect 3, the best way to make that happen. To me, it makes more sense if she's not a squadmate, given the path her storyline has taken, and so I'm inclined to believe the opposite would prove harder to justify.

This is where I disagree. Her storyline is being driven by one of two things in my opinion.

1st... Ingame... she is obviously being manipulated by either TIM or the SB or someone to act out of character. The SB will play a large role in either a DLC and/or ME3 itself. Liara would need to be a squadmate for that to take place or else the entire SB plotline is shot. IMHO. Also... you don't have her be a LI in the first game, the only squaddie that can't die, give her a comic series detailing how she 'could not let you go' and so forth and NOT bring her back as a squaddie. Again... IMHO.

2nd... The second is more simplistic but unfortunately realistic. The Devs at Bioware just decided to alter her character and pretty much write her out of the story because of new writers from ME1 to ME2. I sincerely hope that is not the case... but if it is... see my above post.

[Yeled]

Knoll Argonar wrote...

I agree with OP, and there are really SOME characters that could take the advantage of not being squaddies, but being useful.

The most clear example for me is Mordin. He is just TOO old to Hold the Line properly, and I think that last mission was a bit too much for him. But he's hell of useful as a top researcher, and his view of the world may be great as wise-man (he tells you about your alien LI after all, Bioware could add further of that stuff). So, stay in the Normandy, but not in combat. Great Dialogue tree (more than Joker's and Kelly's) but without combat banter.

Other characters, like Tali, for example, aren't suited for that role because they are or too young (the "admiral"thingy's just for older quarians) or can't be done (she can get exiled).

But, for Liara, she being an information broker for you (in OR out of the Normandy), if her dialog tree is well handled, and her romance is also well developed (again, as if she was an squaddie without being so), I could definetly like that. And it makes sense if you think about her actual role and about her age and then her biotic power compared to other Asari comando-justicar like Shiala, Samara, Morinth or Aria. She's just not as suited for combat as those, but hell, she can be damn useful.

I like the idea, and if Bioware's capable of handle it well, I'd love it.

But it would have to be handled well.  And that's a big question mark, because the last time they tried it (ME2) they did a pretty darn poor job of it.

As I said, if they did a really good job I'd be ok with it, but I remain entirely skeptical that they could do a really good job.  I may be in the minority, but I found ME2 very jarring as a whole.  It was Empire Strikes Back without Han and Leia...or in my case it was.  I couldn't get into it at all because of the choices they made.  It wasn't very cohesive as a story, and while the characters you recruited were individually interesting the fact that they didn't really tie in to or matter to the main storyline at all (save Miranda and, to a lesser extent, Jacob) was amateurish.  It was the first BW game in which I was wholly disappointed, despite the many gameplay improvements they made.

So yeah, I'm looking for ME3 to pick up where ME1 left off and to continue the main Shepard story.  I didn't think ME2 accomplished that.  And a major reason for that was that crucial characters (Liara, Ash/Kaiden) were almost totally glossed over.  I could have lived with Liara not being in the ME2 squad if they had handled her removal properly.  They didn't.  Do you honestly expect they will do a better job next time?

[AndroLeonidas]

Yeled wrote...

Knoll Argonar wrote...

I agree with OP, and there are really SOME characters that could take the advantage of not being squaddies, but being useful.

The most clear example for me is Mordin. He is just TOO old to Hold the Line properly, and I think that last mission was a bit too much for him. But he's hell of useful as a top researcher, and his view of the world may be great as wise-man (he tells you about your alien LI after all, Bioware could add further of that stuff). So, stay in the Normandy, but not in combat. Great Dialogue tree (more than Joker's and Kelly's) but without combat banter.

Other characters, like Tali, for example, aren't suited for that role because they are or too young (the "admiral"thingy's just for older quarians) or can't be done (she can get exiled).

But, for Liara, she being an information broker for you (in OR out of the Normandy), if her dialog tree is well handled, and her romance is also well developed (again, as if she was an squaddie without being so), I could definetly like that. And it makes sense if you think about her actual role and about her age and then her biotic power compared to other Asari comando-justicar like Shiala, Samara, Morinth or Aria. She's just not as suited for combat as those, but hell, she can be damn useful.

I like the idea, and if Bioware's capable of handle it well, I'd love it.

But it would have to be handled well.  And that's a big question mark, because the last time they tried it (ME2) they did a pretty darn poor job of it.

As I said, if they did a really good job I'd be ok with it, but I remain entirely skeptical that they could do a really good job.  I may be in the minority, but I found ME2 very jarring as a whole.  It was Empire Strikes Back without Han and Leia...or in my case it was.  I couldn't get into it at all because of the choices they made.  It wasn't very cohesive as a story, and while the characters you recruited were individually interesting the fact that they didn't really tie in to or matter to the main storyline at all (save Miranda and, to a lesser extent, Jacob) was amateurish.  It was the first BW game in which I was wholly disappointed, despite the many gameplay improvements they made.

So yeah, I'm looking for ME3 to pick up where ME1 left off and to continue the main Shepard story.  I didn't think ME2 accomplished that.  And a major reason for that was that crucial characters (Liara, Ash/Kaiden) were almost totally glossed over.  I could have lived with Liara not being in the ME2 squad if they had handled her removal properly.  They didn't.  Do you honestly expect they will do a better job next time?

This!!

[Knoll Argonar]

But, thinking about it, Bioware could handle the other way around. That's it, making her an actual Squaddie but with the role of information broker, so you talk to her to do missions or... something.



I'd really like that some Squaddies had some roles abord the Ship. Like Mordin as a Scientist for armor upgrades, Jacob for weapon upgrades, Tali for Defensive ship upgrades, Garrus for Ofensive ones... and Liara for information. Squadmates, but with different roles.



Shame that instead we got a three-on-one with Mordin in ME2. I really don't see a biologist researching something that only Quarian Engineers could do, or working with top-notch-Turian-Tech.



In fact, I change my opinion: I want Squadmates with additional roles for ME3, Liara included.

[CTM1]

AndroLeonidas wrote...

MintyCool wrote...
If Bioware cares as much as they say they do about story in games, then they would
simply make Liara unplayable in ME3. Here’s why. The narrative potential for
Liara would be so much more fascinating if she was unplayable. I’ll get to why
this is later.

Actually many believe her storyline is more facinating when you can actually interact with her. Turning her into another Anderson does nothing but give a character that says the same things no matter how many times you go back to them.

This does not necessarily follow. Besides, it's a blind argument, because the same is true even for your squadmates. After a given period of time, they end up saying the same thing over and over again too - whether because you haven't passed a triggered event, or you've exhausted their entire dialogue tree. Their saving grace is that they are always on your ship, so interacting with them is easy. And with the way Bioware currently has things structured, this means they have a lot more varied and interesting things to say. Plus it gives you a bigger emotional stake in them (positive or negative).

What the OP was arguing is that this formula doesn't have to necessarily continue in Mass Effect 3. We could easily have a character like Anderson who sits in one place (or hell, moves around independently of Shepard as the story progresses) that you go back to visit from time to time, who would have plenty of new things to say whenever you passed a triggered event (and not just a few in relative to your squadmates, as is currently the case). Structurally, there really is no difference between a character that travels with Shepard and one that doesn't; Bioware just gives the former more emphasis (and hence more dialogue).

Modifié par CTM1, 13 mars 2010 - 09:29 .

[Yeled]

AndroLeonidas wrote...

CTM1 wrote...

(in reference to a deleted post)
Heh, more troll posting. (EDIT: Nevermind, looks like it was deleted; oh well, I'll keep this up as it is.)

No one (no one seriously discussing this, anyway) is "hating" on Liara at all. I just want something that makes sense, and when it comes to Liara not being a squadmate in Mass Effect 3, the best way to make that happen. To me, it makes more sense if she's not a squadmate, given the path her storyline has taken, and so I'm inclined to believe the opposite would prove harder to justify.

This is where I disagree. Her storyline is being driven by one of two things in my opinion.

1st... Ingame... she is obviously being manipulated by either TIM or the SB or someone to act out of character. The SB will play a large role in either a DLC and/or ME3 itself. Liara would need to be a squadmate for that to take place or else the entire SB plotline is shot. IMHO. Also... you don't have her be a LI in the first game, the only squaddie that can't die, give her a comic series detailing how she 'could not let you go' and so forth and NOT bring her back as a squaddie. Again... IMHO.

2nd... The second is more simplistic but unfortunately realistic. The Devs at Bioware just decided to alter her character and pretty much write her out of the story because of new writers from ME1 to ME2. I sincerely hope that is not the case... but if it is... see my above post.

I worry about your second option, too.

But giving them the benefit of the doubt, I think what the OP is forgetting is that Liara's motivation for everything she is doing is love (romantic or no), admiration, and attachment to Shepard.  This is made clear in the Redemption comic and the ME2 dialogue.  She risked her life to recover Shep's body "because [she] couldn't let [her] go."  And in the course of that she got entangled in the dealings of cerberus and the shadow broker.

Why, now that Shep is back, would she abandon Shep?  It doesn't make any sense.

[Yeled]

CTM1 wrote...

What the OP was arguing is that this formula doesn't have to necessarily continue in Mass Effect 3. We could easily have a character like Anderson who sits in one place (or hell, moves around independently of Shepard as the story progresses) that you go back to visit from time to time, who would have plenty of new things to say whenever you passed a triggered event (and not just a few in relative to your squadmates, as is currently the case). Structurally, there really is no difference between a character that travels with Shepard and one that doesn't; Bioware just gives the former more emphasis (and hence more dialogue).

And I would be fine with that if they broke their formula and gave her as much depth and substance as squadmates.

[CTM1]

She doesn't have to be abandoning Shepard because she's not personally traveling with him.

It's not always an act of love, either - correct me if I'm wrong, but Liara's role in recovering Shepard is the same whether or not she's a love interest, correct? If so, that would greatly dilute any justification a person could give for her motivations being entirely as such. It would come down to interpretation - which doesn't work when you use it as the sole argument for her being in your squad in Mass Effect 3.

Modifié par CTM1, 13 mars 2010 - 09:39 .

[AndroLeonidas]

CTM1 wrote...

Plus it gives you a bigger emotional stake in them (positive or negative).

Hence the reason why so many feel slighted. People have an emotional stake in liara that Bioware wanted you to have, promoted it intensely ingame by allowing you to romance her and then they dumped her like a hot branding iron with little reason and less continuity.(sp)

What the OP was arguing is that this formula doesn't have to necessarily continue in Mass Effect 3. We could easily have a character like Anderson who sits in one place (or hell, moves around independently of Shepard as the story progresses) that you go back to visit from time to time, who would have plenty of new things to say whenever you passed a triggered event (and not just a few in relative to your squadmates, as is currently the case). Structurally, there really is no difference between a character that travels with Shepard and one that doesn't; Bioware just gives the former more emphasis (and hence more dialogue).

Actually... once more in my opinion... I don't believe the OP was arguing that at all. Based on his second paragraph he made his view very clear. At least to me... the rest was just fluff. As for your suggestion about a character such as you describe... why would you want to go back to the same planet to see this character over and over to hear new things? Seems redundant to the extreme to me.

Modifié par AndroLeonidas, 13 mars 2010 - 09:48 .

[Yeled]

CTM1 wrote...

She doesn't have to be abandoning Shepard because she's not personally traveling with him.

It's not always an act of love, either - correct me if I'm wrong, but Liara's role in recovering Shepard is the same whether or not she's a love interest, correct? If so, that would greatly dilute any justification a person could give for her motivations being entirely as such. It would come down to interpretation - which doesn't work when you use it as the sole argument for her being in your squad in Mass Effect 3.

No, it is always an act of love.  You can debate if its romantic love or not, but Liara clearly feels very, very strongly for Shepard.  Even if she isn't in love with Shep, Liara still loves Shepard.  Her motivation is that she "couldn't let shepard go."

[MintyCool]

Heh… first, some think I was trying to make some kind of hate thread, on the contrary I was just trying to start discussion on ways to best implement the many characters in useful and creative ways for ME3. Specifically, Liara, seeing that she already seems to be in position for some really great stories.

For example, I love Mordin. Like, I’m a HUGE fan of the guy. Like, he may be my favorite character. Someone mentioned him maybe retiring in the lab and he would be someone you would visit for upgrades and such. (Off Topic: Actually, if he died in your play through I think Bioware will have you recruit his apprentice to join your crew to take Mordins place in ME3) Hell, maybe Mordin might tag along for a cameo mission and that would be cool. He doesn’t need to be glued to my side for me to enjoy his company. I’m sure he would be in misson briefs and such, and I would be cool with that. Why? Because, the character now has a much more honed purpose in the ME universe now. To me, this fleshes out the characters much more than being forced to click away answers just to receive your prize at the end.

This all leads to a lot of people worrying about the romancing Liara story line. I don’t see why this relationship couldn’t be continued. Regardless, she obviously will have a important role to play in ME3, I was just suggesting an idea that will enhance characters like her. Like I said in the original post she could totally make a cameo as well as a squad mate, maybe leading up to the final confrontation worth the Shadow Broker. This one cameo in my opinion with her would probably be a lot more meaningful than, her just tagging around with me.

So yea, again, we could widen this discussion with others like Mordin and how they can be implemented in the story. I just ask the hard core fans of Liara to keep an open mind and try not to read mine whike thinking the worst in what I may be thinking.

Modifié par MintyCool, 13 mars 2010 - 10:04 .

[Onyx Jaguar]

Well Bioware tends to be stuck in their ways. In order to be safe I'd say that in order to further character development she would most likely have to be in the squad in some capacity in ME 3, but if Bioware can shake things up than I am not going to necessarily be against some of the points brought up on the other side.