140 réponses à ce sujet

[AndroLeonidas]

MintyCool wrote...

Heh… first, some think I was trying to make some kind of hate thread, on the contrary I was just trying to start discussion on ways to best implement the many characters in useful and creative ways for ME3. Specifically, Liara, seeing that she already seems to be in position for some really great stories.
For example, I love Mordin. Like, I’m a HUGE fan of the guy. Like, he may be my favorite character. Someone mentioned him maybe retiring in the lab and he would be someone you would visit for upgrades and such. (Off Topic: Actually, if he died in your play through I think Bioware will have you recruit his apprentice to join your crew to take Mordins place in ME3) Hell, maybe Mordin might tag along for a cameo mission and that would be cool. He doesn’t need to be glued to my side for me to enjoy his company. Like I’m sure he would be in misson briefs and such, and I would be cool with that. Why? Because, the character now has a much more honed purpose in the ME universe now. To me, this fleshes out the characters much more than being forced to click away answers just to receive your prize at the end.
This all leads to a lot of people worrying about the romancing Liara story line. I don’t see why this relationship couldn’t be continued. Regardless, she obviously will have a important role to play in ME, I was just suggesting an idea that will enhance characters like her. Like I said in the original post she could totally make a cameo as well as a squad mate, maybe leading up to the final confrontation worth the Shadow Broker. This one cameo in my opinion with her would probably be a lot more meaningful than, her just tagging around with me.
So yea, again, we could widen this discussion with others like Mordin and how they can be implemented in the story. I just ask the hard core fans of Liara to keep an open mind and try not to read mine, and think the worst in what I may be thinking.

Beginning with Mordin...

Love his character... but beyond Horizon has nothing of importance to do as squadmate. I would absolutely love to see him back as the science lab guy cause his statements and one liners are just too cool.

I see Zaeed as gone, Thane as dying, Samara returning to her Justicar job. Jacob I believe she stay as the weapon dude. He's useless for anythng else in my opinion. I don;t think I ever took him on any mission outside of his loyalty mission and freedom's progress.

Miranda is... in my opinion anyway... almost as important as Liara right now. Garrus will return either way I think, as will Tali either as LI or just to see things through and work with Legion to further peaceful actions between the Geth and Quarians. I love Grunt... though he is a little harsher than Wrex... but I only see one of them returning.

Right now... Miranda and Liara are the hardest to kill or can;t die in any playthrough unless you do something really off the wall. In my opinion...(God that term is old) we have Miranda, Liara, Garrus, Legion and Tali for sure. Bring in two or three more that are not LIs and you have a game. I don't want to do anymore recruiting. Unless they plan a fourth game I want closure to it all in ME3. If they do plan a fourth game then I want to know about it before I buy the third.

As I see it... Liara is essential to the entire story because of her knowledge of the Protheans, which I think will mean something next game... as well as the SB. Miranda because ofher ties to Cerberus is also an essential element. Tali and Legion because of the possible war there.

Having an essential character become basically a rundundant source of information as you suggested with Liara, defeats the very purpose of her storyline altogether.

Jeez! I hope that makes sense.

[DarthCaine]

She SHOULD be a party member because if one LI returns as recruitable, they all do

[CTM1]

yorkj86 wrote...

CTM1 wrote...

She doesn't have to be abandoning Shepard because she's not personally traveling with him.

It's not always an act of love, either - correct me if I'm wrong, but Liara's role in recovering Shepard is the same whether or not she's a love interest, correct? If so, that would greatly dilute any justification a person could give for her motivations being entirely as such. It would come down to interpretation - which doesn't work when you use it as the sole argument for her being in your squad in Mass Effect 3.

I'd say that she loves him regardless of whether or not her love for him is requited.

Ah, good point. Technically, she makes a pass at you in the first game no matter what option you take (assuming, of course, that you talk to her). I still think it's an argument that's too weak to stand on its own, however. Liara respectfully backs off if you tell her off, but she still wants to respect you as a friend. Asari are different from humans - they see relationships differently. I'd liketo believe her motivations are a combination of different things (with love - romantic or not - as one of them).

AndroLeonidas wrote...

CTM1 wrote...

Plus it gives you a bigger emotional stake in them (positive or negative).

Hence the reason why so many feel slighted. People have an emotional stake in liara that Bioware wanted you to have, promoted it intensely ingame by allowing you to romance her and then they dumped her like a hot branding iron with little reason and less continuity.(sp)

Just so that we're clear on this: I didn't like how Liara was handled in Mass Effect 2 either. I didn't expect her to be shipped off to another planet with a job that excluded her from joining Shepard. However, it happened -- and the in-game explanation made sense -- so now we just have to deal with it.

The way I look at it, this presents an opportunity for Bioware to expand in new territory. And by that I mean the idea of what it takes to produce a rich, approachable character. Squadmates, as they currently function, are characters that,
quite simply, follow Shepard into battle (one of the core gameplay mechanics). They follow him everywhere he goes,
which in a Bioware game presents the pleasing side effect (and as far as gameplay goes, it is mostly a side effect) of getting to know them better. What I'm arguing is that one of the qualifications necessary to make this possible doesn't have to be for her to be a squadmate, as has been traditional for Bioware. Bioware took her out of the main gameplay for Mass Effect 2; now I'm curious to see whether or not the company can take it to its most logical extreme in Mass Effect 3. (However, this does not automatically mean I'm against having her as a squadmate in the third game - I just think it's harder to justify now, without looking like a cop-out to please fans, and that the direction they took presents a new opportunity. I am not opposed to the idea of having Liara as a squadmate in Mass Effect 3.)

Now of course, you might just argue about those other gameplay mechanics. What about squadmate interaction? What about taking them with you in certain situations? Getting their reaction? Well, sir, I say all of that is possible without having her around constantly. The plot -- however it manifests itself -- could make this possible. Since I don't know what the plot is, I can't give you direct examples, but I daresay it can be done.

As for your suggestion about a character such as you describe... why would you want to go back to the same planet to see this character over and over to hear new things? Seems redundant to the extreme to me.

She wouldn't necessarily have to be in the same place. Like I said, she could be traveling too, just not with Shepard. The plot could have things set up in a way that, as you progress through the game, Liara  'progresses' as well, gathering new information as she moves from place to place. Hell, who knows - I'm just one man trying to present how this option could be attractive; selling it is something more suitable for Bioware. I just believe they have the ability to do so, now that they've gone in this direction.

Edit: Sorry for the wall of text - this damn forum always reformats my posts so that I have to go back and fix them.

Modifié par CTM1, 13 mars 2010 - 11:38 .

[AndroLeonidas]

CTM1 wrote...

yorkj86 wrote...

CTM1 wrote...



She doesn't
have to be abandoning Shepard because she's not personally traveling
with him.



It's not always an act of love, either - correct me if
I'm wrong, but Liara's role in recovering Shepard is the same whether or
not she's a love interest, correct? If so, that would greatly dilute
any justification a person could give for her motivations being entirely

as such. It would come down to interpretation - which doesn't work
when you use it as the sole argument for her being in your squad in Mass
Effect 3.

I'd say that she loves him regardless of
whether or not her love for him is requited.

Ah, good
point. Technically, she makes at a pass at you in the first game no
matter what option you take (assuming, of course, that you talk to her).
I still think it's an argument that's too
weak to stand on its own, however. Liara respectfully backs off if you
tell her off, but she still wants to respect you as a friend. Asari are
different from humans - they see relationships differently. I'd like to
believe her motivations are a combination of different things (with love
- romantic or not - as one of them).

AndroLeonidas
wrote...

CTM1 wrote...

Plus
it gives you a bigger emotional stake in them (positive or negative).

Hence
the reason why so many feel slighted. People have an emotional stake in
liara that Bioware wanted you to have, promoted it intensely ingame by
allowing you to romance her and then they dumped her like a hot branding
iron with little reason and less continuity.(sp)

Just
so that we're clear on this: I didn't like how
Liara was handled in Mass Effect 2 either. I didn't
expect her to be shipped off to another planet with a job that excluded
her from joining Shepard. However, it happened, so now we have to deal
with it.

The way I look at it, this presents an opportunity for
Bioware to expand in new territory. And by
that I mean the idea of what it takes to produce a rich, approachable
character. Squadmates, as they currently function, are characters that,
quite simply, follow Shepard into battle (one of the core gameplay
mechanics). They follow him everywhere he goes, which in a Bioware game
presents the pleasing side effect (and as far as gameplay goes, it is
mostly a side effect) of getting to know them better. What I'm
arguing is that one of the qualifications necessary to make this
possible doesn't have to be for her to be a squadmate, as has been
traditional for Bioware. Bioware took her out of the main gameplay for
Mass Effect 2; now I'm curious to see whether or not the company can
take it to its most logical extreme in Mass Effect 3. (However, this
does not automatically mean I'm against having her as a squadmate in the
third game - I just think it's harder to justify now, without looking
like a cop-out to please fans, and that the direction they took presents
a new opportunity. I am not opposed
to the idea of having Liara as a squadmate in Mass Effect 3.)

Now
of course, you might just argue about those other gameplay mechanics.
What about squadmate interaction? What about
taking them with you in certain situations? Getting
their reaction? Well, sir, I say all of that
is possible without having her around constantly. The plot -- however it
manifests itself -- could make this possible. Since I don't know what the plot is, I can't
give you direct examples, but I daresay it can be done.

As
for your suggestion about a character such as you describe... why would
you want to go back to the same planet to see this character over and
over to hear new things? Seems redundant to the extreme to me.

She
wouldn't necessarily have to be in the same place. Like I said, she
could be traveling too, just not with Shepard. The plot could have
things set up in a way that, as you progress through the game, Liara
'progresses' as well, gathering new information as she moves from place
to place. Hell, who knows - I'm just one man trying to present how this
option could be attractive; selling it is something more suitable for
Bioware. I just believe they have the ability to do so, now that they've
gone in this direction.

Ok... now with your more indepth explanation I can say I would not be opposed to her returning as a Playable NPC as opposed to a Squadmate. Someone you can go to Illum for example and talk to after every mission and actually do things with if she is your LI. Dinner. Movies. Sleep together. Things like that. Asking too much... probably... but then put her back in my squad! lol!

I don't want to see her back as simply someone you go visit after every mission to get new intel. Given what we have seen with the SB so far in game and the comics she needs an active role in taking him out. And that means being with shep. She also started the save the galaxy from the reapers threat with him, stayed with him after sovereign was beaten, recovered his body at great cost to herself and now she should see it through to the end.

[DirtyVagrant]

This thread causes Joker pain.

Modifié par DirtyVagrant, 13 mars 2010 - 10:24 .

[Ray Joel Oh]

I think they can have the best of both worlds. :gets song in head:

Have her play out her information broker drama, and then join you mid-game if you play your cards right.

[iNixiRir]

DarthCaine wrote...

She SHOULD be a party member because if one LI returns as recruitable, they all do

/thread.

[CTM1]

iNixiRir wrote...

DarthCaine wrote...

She SHOULD
be a party member because if one LI returns as recruitable, they
all
do

/thread.

That's no reason to
end speculation though. We're human beings; we love to debate stuff.

Personally,
I can see Ray Joel Oh's little contribution to the thread making sense
too; I was originally going to
highlight it as a 'best of both
worlds' scenario, except I don't necessarily believe Liara's current
situation is the best fruit to come out of Bioware's decisions for Mass
Effect 2. Bioware isn't shy in introducing nonstandard gameplay
elements. Just look at Samara and Morinth. Compared to how the rest of
the game is set up with how you recruit characters and earn their
loyalty, that one definitely stands out. There's no reason why
everything I've speculated wouldn't work, with her joining you as the
end result - whether always or "if you play your cards right".

Edit: Curse
this forum! Why is it whenever I quote someone the damn thing reformats
my entire post?

Modifié par CTM1, 13 mars 2010 - 11:03 .

[iNixiRir]

JohnnyDollar wrote...

iNixiRir wrote...

DarthCaine wrote...

She SHOULD be a party member because if one LI returns as recruitable, they all do

/thread.

That is not possible.  It would be nice, but not possible.  Only one is universally alive at the end of ME2.  That is Liara. 

If one LI is a squadmember in ME3, every LI is. This also means that if Liara isn't a squadmember in ME3, no LI is. Bioware isn't gonna put one LI ahead of the others.

[jtav]

I believe Liara has a very pivotal role to play, and I believe that role is independent from her romance arc. I'd support making her a plot-critical NPC along the lines of Aribeth, particularly if it leads to her doing interesting and galaxy-changing things that are not directly or indirectly motivated by her feelings for Shepard. There are times Liara comes off as less her own character and more Shepard's satellite.

For what it's worth, I believe Ash/Kaidan, Miranda, Tali, and Legion also have potentially significant roles in ME3.

[Onyx Jaguar]

iNixiRir wrote...

JohnnyDollar wrote...

iNixiRir wrote...

DarthCaine wrote...

She SHOULD be a party member because if one LI returns as recruitable, they all do

/thread.

That is not possible.  It would be nice, but not possible.  Only one is universally alive at the end of ME2.  That is Liara. 

If one LI is a squadmember in ME3, every LI is. This also means that if Liara isn't a squadmember in ME3, no LI is. Bioware isn't gonna put one LI ahead of the others.

Of those possiblities they'd either be in one game, two games or uneven.  It wouldn't be fair for the Ashley/Kaiden LI people if Liara was the only one to appear in ME 3.

[iNixiRir]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

iNixiRir wrote...

JohnnyDollar wrote...

iNixiRir wrote...

DarthCaine wrote...

She SHOULD be a party member because if one LI returns as recruitable, they all do

/thread.

That is not possible.  It would be nice, but not possible.  Only one is universally alive at the end of ME2.  That is Liara. 

If one LI is a squadmember in ME3, every LI is. This also means that if Liara isn't a squadmember in ME3, no LI is. Bioware isn't gonna put one LI ahead of the others.

Of those possiblities they'd either be in one game, two games or uneven.  It wouldn't be fair for the Ashley/Kaiden LI people if Liara was the only one to appear in ME 3.

That's what I'm saying. It also wouldn't be fair for the LI from ME2, and same for Liara. Every LI is basically gonna have  the same role in ME3. May it be as a squadmember or a cameo.

[Onyx Jaguar]

JohnnyDollar wrote...

iNixiRir wrote...

JohnnyDollar wrote...

iNixiRir wrote...

DarthCaine wrote...

She SHOULD be a party member because if one LI returns as recruitable, they all do

/thread.

That is not possible.  It would be nice, but not possible.  Only one is universally alive at the end of ME2.  That is Liara. 

If one LI is a squadmember in ME3, every LI is. This also means that if Liara isn't a squadmember in ME3, no LI is. Bioware isn't gonna put one LI ahead of the others.

Your not hearing me.  Only one character is alive at the end of ME2 other than Shepard.  That is Liara.  Bioware can't make 10 games into one.  All of the other characters that could have died would play small roles that would not impact your squad. 

ME doesn't really have enough dialogue in place for it to be an obsticle to overcome.  It would just boil down to how much they'd spend on VA.  They can mix and match between the characters and should still have enough to make it a viable game.