140 réponses à ce sujet

[Yeled]

I don't think Bioware's decisions are going to be based on fairness. Also, we were told by Casey Hudson that the ME1 LI's were not put in ME2 in order to guarantee their survival into ME3. Now, that could be a line of bull (I'm almost convinced it is), but that's what he said. Feel free to draw whatever implications you like from that.

[Onyx Jaguar]

Yeled wrote...

I don't think Bioware's decisions are going to be based on fairness. Also, we were told by Casey Hudson that the ME1 LI's were not put in ME2 in order to guarantee their survival into ME3. Now, that could be a line of bull (I'm almost convinced it is), but that's what he said. Feel free to draw whatever implications you like from that.

It will most likely boil down to budget and dev time restraints.  Generally you can take what Casey says with a grain of salt since he is like the Molyneux of ME.  He'll come up with whatever excuse he can for any justification needed.

[iNixiRir]

JohnnyDollar wrote...

iNixiRir wrote...

JohnnyDollar wrote...

iNixiRir wrote...

DarthCaine wrote...

She SHOULD be a party member because if one LI returns as recruitable, they all do

/thread.

That is not possible.  It would be nice, but not possible.  Only one is universally alive at the end of ME2.  That is Liara. 

If one LI is a squadmember in ME3, every LI is. This also means that if Liara isn't a squadmember in ME3, no LI is. Bioware isn't gonna put one LI ahead of the others.

Your not hearing me.  Only one character is alive at the end of ME2 other than Shepard.  That is Liara.  Bioware can't make 10 games into one.  All of the other characters that could have died would play small roles that would not impact your squad. 

Yes, Liara can't die, because she was giving the same treatment as Ashley/Kaiden. If Liara wasn't a LI in ME, she would probably be recruitable and possibly dead in ME2. The only reason Bioware put the old LIs on hold is because by doing so, the new LIs can get on the same level as the old ones. Dieing doesn't matter. If people want to import their saves, they at least need 2 squadmembers. Which means that there are always some characters alive. Now it would make sence that most characters are still in your squad, and the people who killed them off, get replacements.
ME3 will be the last game of the trilogy, which means closure for Shepard and his companions. And Bioware will threat every LI the same way. Now if Liara wasn't a LI/recruitable in ME2 - she would be recruitable 100% in ME3. But because she is a LI - she's bound with all the other LIs

Modifié par iNixiRir, 13 mars 2010 - 11:03 .

[iNixiRir]

JohnnyDollar wrote...

iNixiRir wrote...
Yes, Liara can't die, because she was giving the same treatment as Ashley/Kaiden. If Liara wasn't a LI in ME, she would probably be recruitable and possibly dead in ME2. The only reason Bioware put the old LIs on hold is because by doing so, the new LIs can get on the same level as the old ones. Dieing doesn't matter. If people want to import their saves, they at least need 2 squadmembers. Which means that there are always some characters alive. Now it would make sence that most characters are still in your squad, and the people who killed them off, get replacements.
ME3 will be the last game of the trilogy, which means closure for Shepard and his companions. And Bioware will threat every LI the same way. Now if Liara wasn't a LI/recruitable in ME2 - she would be recruitable 100% in ME3. But because she is a LI - she's bound with all the other LIs

We will just have to see what heppens then.  I hope eveyone is satisitfied at least to some degree with their LI's in ME3.  I think I have torpedoed/derailed the topic here by interjecting my points.  I probably shouldn't done that.

You're right. The only thing we can do is wait for it. Bioware knows what they are doing. If they would screw up the LI in ME3, I won't like it, but they probably have good reasons for it. But I hope they don't fail me and the other fans with this in ME3. It's the last part of a trilogy, so I expect Bioware to go all out and make everyone happy  . 

[CTM1]

iNixiRir wrote...
And Bioware will threat every LI the same way. Now if Liara wasn't a LI/recruitable in ME2 - she would be recruitable 100% in ME3. But because she is a LI - she's bound with all the other LIs

They could go the nonstandard route with her. Bioware's already done that from time to time in their games. Samara and Morinth are a good example, in Mass Effect 2. Compared to how the rest of the game is set up, Samara's loyalty mission is definitely different.

Of course, this is a bit more radical since Morinth was pretty much the same as Samara in the game proper, while Liara is not compared to Ashley/Kaidan. Still possible, though. The way I see it, a character's romantic relationship with a character molds itself around the character's overall inclusion in the plot. Liara is obviously going to be very different from Ashley/Kaidan in that regard. So I can't see why Bioware can't go whole hog on this and treat her a little different as a gameplay mechanic as well. It wouldn't have to be unfair if she was given just as much interactivity as the others (her being a squadmate not having to be a requirement for this to be so, as I've outlined). Yes, that would require a bit more from Bioware than we've seen from them, but the opportunity exists nonetheless.

Modifié par CTM1, 13 mars 2010 - 11:14 .

[Knoll Argonar]

Why not impact?



Imagine some sort of ME3 a la DA:O.



You don't have Wrex, can't convince Wreav to Unite Krogans and can't use them against Reapers. Some Asari planet gets bumped.



You don't save the Rachni, Kahje gets destroyed.



You don't have Legion or doesn't join you after you send him to Cerberus: can't get Geth support. The Migrant Fleet gets attacked.



You don't have Tali alive -> can't convince them to leave the Geth alone and will try to take war.



_____



BUT.



If you had Wrex, the Krogan Union joins the Fight and, by saving some planet, gains the trust of the whole galactic comunity, or something like that.



If you have the Rachni alive, their appeareance will be unexpected for EVERYONE but may be very wellcomed if you assist as their suport (or not).



And if you have Legion & Tali with you, you may as well work on a peace/war between quarians and the Geth, deciding wether outcome you would like or can get and then it would have consequences in the end of the game, like Geth being accepted as a non-agressive species and Quarians returning to their homeworld.



All those things are possible because maybe having those squaddies don't strip out some missions from the overall game, but they may give you more options and more power to decide what can you get from all them.



And, because there won't be any ME4, there's nothing to worry about. Custom Epilogue and move on.



Same with Liara. Maybe she gets killed if you don't help her properly. Again, doesn't bann you from doing some mission, but you don't get as many options as if you do, so you have limitations of choices.



Anyway, i'm offtopiquing too much, sorry. Just saying that the fact that you can get some people killed shouldn't be an automatic prohibition to become important on their own.

[GuardianAngel470]

JohnnyDollar wrote...

I see Liara as playing some integral role in ME3. Just don't know how big. Is it something tangible or not (i.e. Wrex, Council)? She can be a love interest and have a love scene with Shepard, without being a squadmate. Personally I kinda like her role with hunting down the shadow broker and being in the espionage/intel business. I am not entirely convinced yet, that Liara does not have a darker side that has not been revealed yet. Although this is kind of far flung, she could betray Shepard in ME3.

Yup, this is how I feel.  Just because she isn't with you doesnt mean she can't be a love interest. Its true that it has never been done before but as far as I know this level of continuity has never been done before.  Bioware makes a habit it seems of doing things that have never been done before, so it is a possibility that they will continue the romance in a unique setting, ie with her on ilium, doing the most good.

[jtav]

It has been down before. NWN OC. Aribeth and Aarin.

[WarChicken78]

Just my 2 cents on the OPs opinion:



I think you make some valid points.

But if Liara manages to actually defeat the shadow broker, which is her sole purpose as a information broker, there's nothing preventing her to join shepard again.



I'd actually make it story dependant. If in ME3 Liara brought down the shadow broker, then I'd not have any problem with her joining the team again. If not, I don't see the pont of teaming up with shepard again.



I'd actually not at all have any problem with playing a short mission AS Liara. Jokers short mission was something refreshingly different in ME2 and I'd not mind taking over another character for a small mission. This doesn't need to be Liara, but I'd not complain about it, if it was, either.

[ObserverStatus]

Ok. I don't mean to troll, but wtf?

[Onyx Jaguar]

bobobo878 wrote...

Ok. I don't mean to troll, but wtf?

Did you read all the posts?

[ObserverStatus]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

bobobo878 wrote...

Ok. I don't mean to troll, but wtf?

Did you read all the posts?

about the first 5

[CTM1]

Too bad for you, then. Some good points were made past those first five.

Modifié par CTM1, 13 mars 2010 - 11:33 .

[Onyx Jaguar]

yorkj86 wrote...

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

iNixiRir wrote...

JohnnyDollar wrote...

iNixiRir wrote...

DarthCaine wrote...

She SHOULD be a party member because if one LI returns as recruitable, they all do

/thread.

That is not possible.  It would be nice, but not possible.  Only one is universally alive at the end of ME2.  That is Liara. 

If one LI is a squadmember in ME3, every LI is. This also means that if Liara isn't a squadmember in ME3, no LI is. Bioware isn't gonna put one LI ahead of the others.

Of those possiblities they'd either be in one game, two games or uneven.  It wouldn't be fair for the Ashley/Kaiden LI people if Liara was the only one to appear in ME 3.

And the other way around, as well.

Yes that is true.  They should be able to accomidate all those characters as they have most of the resources in place for ME 3, they just would have to put the effort in script writing while getting the go ahead from EA for funds regarding VA.

[GuardianAngel470]

jtav wrote...

It has been down before. NWN OC. Aribeth and Aarin.

Ok, thanks for the info.  I've never played NWN OC so I wouldn't know.  That just reinforces my point though.  If there is even precedent for it then it is even more likely.  I felt the romances got a little more time and effort this time around (ME2) than last time (ME1) so if they went with genuinely unique romances (Tali, Miranda, Jack on the ship in unique ways with Ashley and Liara outside of the ship) then it will be much better than if they are all on the ship with minor variations.

I love wrex but I don't think having him be a part of the crew makes sense.  he can make appearances on the normandy but he can do so much more good on tuchanka and with his people than he can as part of the normandy.  The same goes for Liara.

[CTM1]

Keep in mind what others (including myself) have said, too. There's no reason Bioware can't take the nonstandard approach with Liara and keep her from being a squadmate, while at the same time allowing the other Mass Effect 1 characters to be. Hell, I'd argue the same for Wrex as well (obviously, this is assuming if you saved him); his role on Tuchanka seems too important for him to be following Shepard around the galaxy. Who is going to take his place as head of the clan while he's gone? Doesn't he need to be around in order to hold it together? It would make more sense for him to be a in a support role - though again, that would not have to mean interacting with him would be any less satisfying than interacting with a squadmate; Bioware would just have to find a way to make it so. I just happen to believe that, should they do this, that they can do so effectively.

Characters ought to branch out more and provide some more gameplay diversity. I think Wrex and Liara are perfect examples, and that the best solution (given their roles in Mass Effect 2) for them is to keep them as non-squadmates. Liara would just stand out more in that she's also a potential love interest.

However, to us this seems to be very radical and demanding of Bioware, so many of us assume a character who isn't a squadmate is essentially not as important anymore (especially if they're a love interest) and hence not as engaging as characters. I say that this is not necessarily the case. Characters like Wrex and Liara could even serve as temporary squadmates before going back to whatever it is Bioware has them doing in Mass Effect 3. You just never know - but don't assume they can't do this because of current observed limitations.

Modifié par CTM1, 13 mars 2010 - 11:56 .

[thedoncarnage]

MintyCool wrote...

Also, think about the story possibilities for Liara going into ME3. For example, one
of the dialog options hints that Liara may become the one thing she’s trying to
defeat, the new Shadow Broker. This idea, that a former ally (or lover) would
turn on you in the end seems thrilling. Simply making Liara a squad mate will dilute
these opportunities.

For the record: I romanced Liara in ME1 and stayed faithful in ME2.

With that in mind I'm undecided on the OP's premise, but he touches on a interesting point in the paragraph above. I've always thought it was a little too easy to blindly trust people in Mass Effect. The only "real" betrayal I can think of in the main storyline is the warden of Jack's prison ship, but he's an extremely minor character. That said, I'd like to see a squadmate turn on you in ME3. I think it would add a lot of drama to the script.

There could be any number of reasons for the treason... indoctrination is the first to come to mind. Having Shepard's lover turn covertly turn into a Reaper agent would definately be a twist.

LI fanboys will no doubt go crazy over this, but you can't deny it would put more weight behind the loyalty system.

[jtav]

thedoncarnage wrote...

MintyCool wrote...

Also, think about the story possibilities for Liara going into ME3. For example, one
of the dialog options hints that Liara may become the one thing she’s trying to
defeat, the new Shadow Broker. This idea, that a former ally (or lover) would
turn on you in the end seems thrilling. Simply making Liara a squad mate will dilute
these opportunities.

For the record: I romanced Liara in ME1 and stayed faithful in ME2.

With that in mind I'm undecided on the OP's premise, but he touches on a interesting point in the paragraph above. I've always thought it was a little too easy to blindly trust people in Mass Effect. The only "real" betrayal I can think of in the main storyline is the warden of Jack's prison ship, but he's an extremely minor character. That said, I'd like to see a squadmate turn on you in ME3. I think it would add a lot of drama to the script.

There could be any number of reasons for the treason... indoctrination is the first to come to mind. Having Shepard's lover turn covertly turn into a Reaper agent would definately be a twist.

LI fanboys will no doubt go crazy over this, but you can't deny it would put more weight behind the loyalty system.

As a LI fangirl, I say "bring it on!" Bastila was one of my favorite romances for precisely that reason. As long as we get a redemption option, I'm more than OK with it.

[thedoncarnage]

CTM1 wrote...

Hell, I'd argue the same for Wrex as well (obviously, this is assuming if you saved him); his role on Tuchanka seems too important for him to be following Shepard around the galaxy. Who is going to take his place as head of the clan while he's gone? Doesn't he need to be around in order to hold it together? .

This guy also speaks truth. As much as I love Wrex he is now the de-facto ruler of Unified Tuchanka. He wouldn't be able to follow Shepard around because he'd be too busy managing the Krogan armies in the final battle.

Same goes for Legion, sort of. Legion is the face of the true-Geth. Theoretically, the admirals of the other races "allied fleets" would be using Legion's platform to plan battle strategy.

[Zulu_DFA]

Liara for Final Boss!!!!

Seriously, OP is absolutely right in all his poits. And this idea, that old squadmates should have NPC continuation in the sequels, for the sake of their proper "character development" goes to every squadmate.

Howerer, I doubt Liara not being a squadmate ME3. Too many people seem to be taking it for granted.

And a note: If Liara turns against TIM in ME3, she'd better be killable. I can't see the point of replacing one Shadow Broker with another. What is this? Sith Lords?

[jtav]

If I had to choose, I'd much rather have my chosen LI be significant to the plot rather than recruitable. Liara is virtually guaranteed to have a large role in ME3. She might well be the most significant NPC of the game. Being recruitable is nothing compared to that.