271 réponses à ce sujet

[Ray Joel Oh]

Shandepared wrote...

Ray Joel Oh wrote...

No, sweetie, I just outgrew it.

You outgrew what, disagreement? Your skull?

Your belief that "because I felt like it" is justification for murder.

[Mr.BlazenGlazen]

You people are making yourselves look ridiculous with this argument, don't make me signal the forum sniper (which in this case happens to be garrus)

[Ray Joel Oh]

Mr.BlazenGlazen wrote...

You people are making yourselves look ridiculous with this argument, don't make me signal the forum sniper (which in this case happens to be garrus)

Sorry, I don't respond to condescension well.  But you're right. 

[Tinnic]

I didn't let Garrus kill Sidonis because I didn't want to damage Garrus. Sidonis deserved to pay for his crimes and he does. Talking to him makes it clear that he is haunted by the events of the day and if you let him live, he turns himself in. But if you let Garrus kill him, what happens to Garrus? Why doesn't anyone think about the impact it would have on Garrus? Garrus was already falling apart and becoming more darker. Letting him go through with blind vengeance = bad, bad, bad thing. I am sure renegade Shepard would be all renegade but my Paragon Shepard couldn't in good conscience let, 1. An unarmed, remorseful man be killed, 2. Let her friend take such a step in such a wrong direction.

[Ray Joel Oh]

Cryptic.

[Mr.BlazenGlazen]

Here is my little sum up of this sidonis predicament. Killing sidonis is like shooting a hawk that has its wings clipped.



Helpless, defenseless, unarmed, and pathetic. Justified or not, its murder.

[Mr.BlazenGlazen]

Shandepared wrote...

Mr.BlazenGlazen wrote...

Here is my little sum up of this sidonis predicament. Killing sidonis is like shooting a hawk that has its wings clipped.

Helpless, defenseless, unarmed, and pathetic. Justified or not, its murder.

You can't murder an animal.

...........Are you being serious right now?

[srzyski89]

InvaderErl wrote...

I go as far as I can, allowing Sidonis to say his piece and then I let Garrus make the decision.

So no he has not yet lived on any of my playthroughs.

Pretty much my train of thought. If Garrus really didn't want to take the shot, he wouldn't. Just because I move doesn't mean he has to pull the trigger. If Garrus doesn't know what is best for himself, how can Shepard? I know people need guidance but in cases like this, it is up to the individual to make their decision and live with it. It's what annoys me about Legion's mission; he can't make his own decision regarding his own "people".

[superimposed]

lawl.



It's black and white - Vengence or Mercy.

Vengence is always bad, even when you're the good guy you pay for it.



/thread

[Pauravi]

Flies_by_Handles wrote...

Pauravi, I take it you're
against the death penalty then? How do you draw the line between justice
and revenge?

Yes, I am.

Justice is something that I feel should be done for practical purposes (guided by a set of morals), not because someone "deserves" to be punished.  I don't believe that someone should go to jail, for instance, as retribution for a crime but rather because they have proven that they are going to hurt others and need to be separated for the benefit of others.

Once this angle is taken, you are no longer obligated to make someone's time in jail harsh simply for the purpose of making sure that they are adequately punished.  The benefit to that approach is that real corrective action can be pursued to help those who are imprisoned so that they do not repeat their mistakes once released.  One of the biggest problems with our "correctional" system is that it doesn't actually correct anything.  In fact it does worse -- it makes it MORE difficult for criminals to be productive members of society rather than less.  For those who are uncorrectable, they will simply stay in prison.  They can either be used for certain kinds of labor so that they return something to the system, or not, but the price of permanent incarceration is the price we pay for running a moral and compassionate society.

Aedan_Cousland wrote...

For those of you who spare Sidonis, ask yourself this question: If Sidonis was a member of Shepard's team, and if he betrayed that team and got everyone killed except for Shepard, do you let Sidonis live?

I probably wouldn't want to, no.

If the answer is no, then why are you stopping Garrus from taking that shot?

Because the thing that the person wronged wishes to happen is not always the best solution.  There is a reason that we do not let the victims of crimes determine the punishment for those crimes; because the thing that you want is not always the thing that is right, or that is productive.  You're essentially arguing that "reasoning" with emotions is a valid form of logic.  It is not.

Shandepared wrote...

Pauravi wrote...

In actuality, revenge is the thing that is meaningless.

It gives the avenger satisfaction.

Frankly, I don't think it does.

Modifié par Pauravi, 15 mars 2010 - 07:28 .

[Pauravi]

Shandepared wrote...

Pauravi wrote...

Frankly, I don't think it does.

It might not give you satisfaction but there is no evidence that it doesn't give Garrus satisfaciton, nor any other number of people who have done similar things.

I'm fairly certain that such evidence does exist, actually, but it is beside the point.

Your petty satisfactions are not reason enough to end the life of a helpless repentant.  No amount of revenge will change the real reason for the anger; that someone you cared about is dead.  The only solution that truly brings any closure is to learn to cope with the loss and stop dwelling on feelings of hatred towards the person who did it.  At least in that scenario they have improved as a person by learning to control their emotions and deal with loss, instead of giving in to destructive and hateful desires.  No good comes of it.

[GodWood]

He deserved to die.

[Pauravi]

Shandepared wrote...

Pauravi wrote...

Your petty satisfactions are not reason enough to end the life of a helpless repentant.

I don't see them as petty.

You don't agree that hurt feelings are less important than someone's life?
I guess I can see why we disagree on moral issues, then.

[Pauravi]

Shandepared wrote...

Pauravi wrote...

You don't agree that hurt feelings are less important than someone's life?
I guess I can see why we disagree on moral issues, then.

Ah yes, the murder of nearly a dozen people by a trusted comrade is just "hurt feelings".

Are you deliberately mischaracterizing my argument, or did you just not understand what I said?
There is a difference between the murders and the results of it, I hope you can see that fine point; I understand that it is subtle.  The motivation for killing Sidonis is not to prevent his squad's murder, they are already dead.  The motivation is Garrus' feelings over his squad's murder.  If killing Sidonis was going to prevent a dozen of his comrades from being killed, I would absolutely agree with you.  But it isn't.

I think what is more important is the lives that were taken from those ten people, not the life of the worthless traitor who sold them out.

The lives of those ten people are certainly worth more than Sidonis.
However, killing Sidonis will not bring them back.  You simply end up with 11 dead ex-friends instead of 10.  Sidonis himself is repentant and feels guilty, and wants to make up for his mistake.  Killing him to satisfy your own anger can only erase the probability of him doing something beneficial to make up for it in the future.  No actual good comes from exacting revenge.

[Joe2d]

The only reason i didn't kill Sadonis is i'm curious what is in store for him in ME3, like what happened to Conrad or Shiala or Rachni Queen or the lot. In my case curiosity saves Sadonis.

[spryforadeadguy]

srzyski89 wrote...

InvaderErl wrote...

I go as far as I can, allowing Sidonis to say his piece and then I let Garrus make the decision.

So no he has not yet lived on any of my playthroughs.

Pretty much my train of thought. If Garrus really didn't want to take the shot, he wouldn't. Just because I move doesn't mean he has to pull the trigger. If Garrus doesn't know what is best for himself, how can Shepard? I know people need guidance but in cases like this, it is up to the individual to make their decision and live with it. It's what annoys me about Legion's mission; he can't make his own decision regarding his own "people".

I almost agree with you, but a man's life was on the line.  If you're playing paragon (especially full paragon), Shepard isn't someone who is just going to sit idly by while a murder is committed.  Maybe Garrus would have been pissed at him, maybe he would have thanked him, but Shepard has a duty to save lives.