33 réponses à ce sujet

[cruc1al]

I tested this multiple times, got the same result each time. The 50% damage bonus from Squad armor-piercing ammo does less damage to armor than the 50% damage bonus from 5/5 weapon upgrades; that's using the Viper sniper rifle.

Squad AP ammo vs. 5/5 damage upgrades (HD) (1 min)

What am I missing here? Is it a bug? Or are the damage bonuses calculated differently? Or does the heavy mech armor actually have some resistance to armor-piercing bullets that it doesn't have for basic weapon damage?

(The total damage bonus here should be +50% from AP sniper, +50% from AP ammo OR damage upgrades, and 7.50% from Miranda. No points in passive class skill.)

Modifié par cruc1al, 13 mars 2010 - 11:38 .

[RamsenC]

I think you also get addition armor piercing on top of the 50% damage boost with 5/5 sniper damage.

edit: Are you accounting for these bonuses? Would skew your results if not. 

+50% Armor Piercing  Unlocked after 2 damage upgrades
+50% Headshot Damage Unlocked after 3 damage upgrades

Modifié par RamsenC, 14 mars 2010 - 12:07 .

[JWCbox]

Why don't you try it again without miranda? I suspect that her damage bonus may stack with base damage, but be ignored by the ammo damage. Another possibility is that the +50% damage against armor which the sniper has natively might not add onto ammo damage, but is compounded with the damage upgrade. It most likely is not a bug, but a discrepancy in which the way damage is calculated. I remember reading somewhere that ammo damage only looks at the base damage, not the modified damage.

[rumination888]

Try it without Miranda.

[D Amiri]

The dev's said ammo powers are applied separately first and resistance bonuses are applies last. So for this example you would get:



ammo damage + [weapon damage+ (weapon damage * (damage bonus% added together))*resistance multiplier]



So weapon damage increases get the resistance bonus while ammo power damage is the resistance bonus.

[Maestro Vivaldi]

When you upgrade the sniper rifle you gain a +50% base bonus AND with the viper you gain +35%  against armor. It's 81.9 + 40.95 = 122.85 AND 122.85 + 42.9955 = 160.805
Total 160
If you don't upgrade the sniper rifle the base damage is always 81.9 + 35% = 110.565 against armor and the ammo bonus is only + 40.95 (ammo bonus of 50% from the base damage)
Total 151

Modifié par Maestro Vivaldi, 14 mars 2010 - 01:53 .

[Ehrgeix]

To elaborate on:

JWCbox wrote...

Why don't you try it again without miranda? I suspect that her damage bonus may stack with base damage, but be ignored by the ammo damage.

I think this might be true, Eric ****nan posted -

Eric ****nan wrote...

Warp ammo, like all other ammo powers, uses the weapon's base damage to calculate the bonus. They never take any weapon bonuses into account, so it doesn't get more damage from a target who is in ragdoll [edit/my addition: this is a 100% damage bonus, you can read about it in the gameplay data thread].

At the time I figured by weapon's base damage/weapon bonuses he just meant ragdoll state etc, but perhaps he actually does mean it gains no benefit from +damage% modifiers from class passives, miranda, headshots (does anyone know the headshot damage multiplier yet? I assume it's 1.5 and +another .5 with the sniper damage upgrades?), etc.

[Grand_Commander13]

The difference is about a 18% increase in damage relative to the +50% ammo damage; multiplying a 7.5% difference isn't going to mess with it by that much.

I'm at a loss. I've tried and failed to crunch how the game could be working to do that. Bah, humbug.

[Maestro Vivaldi]

I've explained the difference...

[Grand_Commander13]

160.8 / 151 = 1.0649, or less than 36% of the observed difference. Explain better.

[Maestro Vivaldi]

The observed difference between the two samples in the video is far less than 36%... look again

Modifié par Maestro Vivaldi, 14 mars 2010 - 12:49 .

[Grand_Commander13]

 

36% of the observed difference.  The observed difference is about 18.18% of the lesser set (ammunition skill)'s damage.

[Maestro Vivaldi]

I don't know what you are talking about... The op asks why there is a difference and i explain why :

The Viper with all the upgrades and no ammo power deals more damage than the Viper without upgrades but with ammor piercing ammo power because :

The viper gives a 35% damage bonus vs armor and because this bonus is calculated AFTER the base damage has gain the 50% with the sniper rifle upgrades.

Without upgrades the 35% bonus is less important. That's why there is a difference between the two...

To explain it better : The 50% damage bonus from armor piercing ammo power has no influence on the 35% bonus from the Viper but the Sniper Rifle upgrades have an influence on that specific bonus of 35%.

Modifié par Maestro Vivaldi, 14 mars 2010 - 01:28 .

[cruc1al]

As Grand_Commander13 said, Miranda's 7.50% damage boost can't possibly account for the difference.

In the Gameplay Data post, it is explained that the ammo power damage is an additive damage bonus gained by takin a percentage of the base damage of the weapon and adding it to the base damage. It is not explained clearly if the base damage is the actual base damage of the weapon when nothing else has been applied to it, or if it's the base damage times the multiplier against armor, shields or whatever.

Furthermore, it is not explained if all other damage bonuses are additive as well, and whether they're gained by adding percentages of the base damage, or by adding percentages of a modified damage.

Does anyone know? I'm hoping a dev would chime in.

[Maestro Vivaldi]

LOL I'm not talking about Miranda bonus at all.

What you don't understand is that there is ANOTHER bonus with the specifications of the viper and this a bonus of base damage +35% vs armor. Nothing about Miranda there...

To explain it better : The 50% damage bonus from armor piercing ammo power has no influence on the 35% bonus from the Viper but the Sniper Rifle upgrades have an influence on that specific bonus of 35%.

Modifié par Maestro Vivaldi, 14 mars 2010 - 01:36 .

[Ehrgeix]

I think Maestro's suggestion is:

character deals 100 (hypothetically speaking!) damage
plus 50 from APA

=character deals 100 + 50 damage. the 100 recieves a 1.35 multiplier because it is damage dealt against armor with the viper sniper rifle. total sum is (100 x 1.35) = 135 + 50 = 185

vs

character deals 150 damage. the 150 recieves a 1.35 multiplier because it is damage dealt vs armor with a viper sniper rifle. total sum is 150 x 1.35 = 202.5

-

Not that I necessarily agree that that's what is going on (though logically I don't see why it shouldn't at least contribute to the difference? not sure it explains all of it, and this assumes i've not missed something), but that's what I took from his posts.

edit: okay he edited his last post to explain it just as I posted this. :<

Modifié par Ehrgeix, 14 mars 2010 - 01:38 .

[cruc1al]

Maestro Vivaldi wrote...

I don't know what you are talking about... The op asks why there is a difference and i explain why :

I measured the size of the drained part of the armor bar on my screen, using a ruler.

That size is 3.3cm for damage upgrades, and 2.8cm for the AP ammo. The damage upgrades did 18% more damage according to this measurement. Your calculations end up with the damage upgrades doing only less than 7% more damage.

Your conclusion can't be correct; there's something else going on.

Maestro Vivaldi wrote...

LOL I'm not talking about Miranda bonus at all.

I understand perfectly well what you're stating, I just said that I acknowledge Miranda can't be responsible for this.

Modifié par cruc1al, 14 mars 2010 - 01:39 .

[Ehrgeix]

cruc1al wrote...
Your conclusion can't be correct; there's something else going on.

What if his calculations were correct, and there was something else going on in addition to this? (miranda bonus + class passive not benefitting ammo powers?)

edit: also, it looks like you might have missed with a shot at 0:52 to 0:53?
edit #2: okay i don't think so, just ****ty quality youtube vid and a kinda near miss.

Modifié par Ehrgeix, 14 mars 2010 - 01:45 .

[cruc1al]

Ehrgeix wrote...

cruc1al wrote...
Your conclusion can't be correct; there's something else going on.

What if his calculations were correct, and there was something else going on in addition to this? (miranda bonus + class passive not benefitting ammo powers?)

Hence I said conclusion, not calculations (edited it).

Modifié par cruc1al, 14 mars 2010 - 01:42 .

[Ehrgeix]

Oops, my bad, sorry. Editwars!

[Maestro Vivaldi]

Ehrgeix wrote...

I think Maestro's suggestion is:

character deals 100 (hypothetically speaking!) damage
plus 50 from APA

=character deals 100 + 50 damage. the 100 recieves a 1.35 multiplier because it is damage dealt against armor with the viper sniper rifle. total sum is (100 x 1.35) = 135 + 50 = 185

vs

character deals 150 damage. the 150 recieves a 1.35 multiplier because it is damage dealt vs armor with a viper sniper rifle. total sum is 150 x 1.35 = 202.5

This is it !

[cruc1al]

Maestro Vivaldi wrote...

Ehrgeix wrote...

I think Maestro's suggestion is:

character deals 100 (hypothetically speaking!) damage
plus 50 from APA

=character deals 100 + 50 damage. the 100 recieves a 1.35 multiplier because it is damage dealt against armor with the viper sniper rifle. total sum is (100 x 1.35) = 135 + 50 = 185

vs

character deals 150 damage. the 150 recieves a 1.35 multiplier because it is damage dealt vs armor with a viper sniper rifle. total sum is 150 x 1.35 = 202.5

This is it !

Again, 202.5 is only 9.5% more than 185, which is about half of what I observed (3.3cm vs 2.8cm).

[cruc1al]

Okay, I think I've got it figured out.

From the Gameplay Data thread:

Eric Fa6nan wrote...

Ammo powers make a separate damage call before the initial weapon damage call

This implies that the damage bonuses added to the initial weapon damage after the ammo power bonus are multiplicative. If they were additive, it wouldn't make any difference to make the ammo power damage call separately of the other damage calls (i.e. additively). Furthermore, if they were additive, we would see exactly the same result in both tests.

So, let's take a hypothetical 100 base damage.

With the AP ammo, the total damage would be

(AP ammo bonus) + basedmg * APsniper * Viper * Miranda
= 50 + 100 * 1.50 * 1.35 * 1.075 = 267.7.

With the 5/5 damage upgrade but no AP ammo, the total damage would be

basedmg * APsniper * Viper * Miranda * upgrades
= 100 * 1.50 * 1.35 * 1.075 * 1.50 = 326.5.

The latter is (326.5/267.7 - 1)*100% = 22.0% more than the former. That's pretty close to the 18% I got from my ruler measurements.

Only if someone could officially confirm that the damage bonuses apart from the ammo bonus are multiplicative, I'd be real happy.

Modifié par cruc1al, 14 mars 2010 - 02:26 .

[Grand_Commander13]

Yeah, that is pretty darn close. Well within the margin of error, for sure.

But I thought that the bonus damage was supposed to be additive, not multiplicative. Well this upends that. You're right though, that if it's usually multiplicative then Eric's post actually has a purpose.

Oh, and Maestro, I'm really sick of your smug attitude when you're not paying a lick of attention to what anyone else but yourself is saying.

[WillieStyle]

cruc1al wrote...

Okay, I think I've got it figured out.

From the Gameplay Data thread:

Eric Fa6nan wrote...

Ammo powers make a separate damage call before the initial weapon damage call

This implies that the damage bonuses added to the initial weapon damage after the ammo power bonus are multiplicative. If they were additive, it wouldn't make any difference to make the ammo power damage call separately of the other damage calls (i.e. additively). Furthermore, if they were additive, we would see exactly the same result in both tests.

So, let's take a hypothetical 100 base damage.

With the AP ammo, the total damage would be

(AP ammo bonus) + basedmg * APsniper * Viper * Miranda
= 50 + 100 * 1.50 * 1.35 * 1.075 = 267.7.

With the 5/5 damage upgrade but no AP ammo, the total damage would be

basedmg * APsniper * Viper * Miranda * upgrades
= 100 * 1.50 * 1.35 * 1.075 * 1.50 = 326.5.

The latter is (326.5/267.7 - 1)*100% = 22.0% more than the former. That's pretty close to the 18% I got from my ruler measurements.

Only if someone could officially confirm that the damage bonuses apart from the ammo bonus are multiplicative, I'd be real happy.

It is likely that only the resistance and research bonuses are multiplicative.  Let us assume Miranda's 7.5% bonus is additive.
Then with 100 base damage you would get

(AP ammo bonus) + basedmg * APsniper * Viper * Miranda
= 50 + 100 * 1.50 * 1.35  + 100*1.075 = 260.

With the 5/5 damage upgrade but no AP ammo, the total damage would be

basedmg * APsniper * Viper * Miranda * upgrades
= 100 * 1.50 * 1.35 *1.50 + 100*1.075 = 311.25

(311.25/260 - 1)*100 = 19.7%