70 réponses à ce sujet

[Dallo]

There are plenty of odd design decisions in this game but the two that really stand out for me, probably because I only just discovered them in my current (6th) runthrough are these:

 A)  The only way to get the most desirable outcome at Redcliffe (survival of both Lenora and Connor) , against the wishes of your party (Leliana, Alistair and Morrigan in my case – all of whom register negative approval), is to appoint yourself judge and executioner of the blood mage Jowan.  That is, you need to kill him in the cells and later go get assistance from the Circle of Mages, which is fine if you’ve already done the latter quest but problematic if you haven’t (immersion breaker).  Jowan may deserve death, he readily admits it and even offers his throat to you if you decide to finish him, but it’s not the pragmatic thing to do when it’s clear that he may be of assistance.  And doesn't everyone deserve a chance to try to put things right?  Really, there are a bunch of good reasons, both realistic and apparent,  to leave him alive.

Ok, sure, Bioware were trying to lure us into the existential angst of choosing between the lives of a boy and his mother.  Good and powerful roleplay, sure, but the whole thing makes no sense!

   Don’t know about you guys but I try to keep my promises.  Even most of the eviller buggers I know in my life have some kind of honour.

Archers do it relatively tough in this game, right?  You can’t poison your arrows (wth’s with that!), there are no runic ranged weapons, and mostly the available bows are relatively crappy.  Except for one..

 
Far Song

Requires 34 dexterity

Damage 9.6

Critical Chance 1.6

Armour Penetration 8.8

Range 46

+2 damage

Rapid Aim

+3% ranged critical chance

+10 attack

+10% critical/backstab damage

 
Compared to the other crud in the game, that is an outstanding weapon.  Expensive, but worth every copper.

But how do you get access to it???  You have to either unintentionally fail to complete a minor quest with Owen’s daughter and be an evil, unfeeling bastard later by suggesting she’s probably dead, go away for awhile and return to deal with the replacement blacksmith after Owen has killed himself in grief, or you have to intentionally not find her, or find her and not speak to her (she always runs back to her father regardless of dialogue options).  What in the hells is with that??

Really, the only halfway decent bow in the game is a reward for FAILURE and being mean, or for an immersion breaking decision to fail.  And even then, you actually have to return to a crappy store for no good reason.

Ok, it's cool to discover new stuff, especially when, as I am, you're on your 6th run, but not at the expense of roleplay, common sense, and especially when the "stuff" could really assist a challenged type of character.

Caveat:  I've never played a full-on archer and am assuming it'd be tough.


Any design decisions that have really bugged you??

Modifié par Dallo, 13 mars 2010 - 11:54 .

[Marik333]

Dallo wrote...
 

A)  The only way to get the most desirable outcome at Redcliffe (survival of both Lenora and Connor) , against the wishes of your party (Leliana, Alistair and Morrigan in my case – all of whom register negative approval), is to appoint yourself judge and executioner of the blood mage Jowan.  That is, you need to kill him in the cells and later go get assistance from the Circle of Mages, which is fine if you’ve already done the latter quest but problematic if you haven’t (immersion breaker).  Jowan may deserve death, he readily admits it and even offers his throat to you if you decide to finish him, but it’s not the pragmatic thing to do when it’s clear that he may be of assistance.  And doesn't everyone deserve a chance to try to put things right?  Really, there are a bunch of good reasons, both realistic and apparent,  to leave him alive.

Ok, sure, Bioware were trying to lure us into the existential angst of choosing between the lives of a boy and his mother.  Good and powerful roleplay, sure, but the whole thing makes no sense!

 

Um... nobody has to die to save both the mommy and the son. If you choose the right dialog decision(s) after deciding to let Jowan help, or set Jowan free and have either Morrigan or Wynne in your party when you try to figure out how to save Connor, they will all say that you can do a ritual with lots of lyrium and mages (Jowan's first suggestion is the blood ritual, but you can easily ask for alternatives).

Unless I misunderstood what you were saying.

[Dallo]

Marik333 wrote...
Um... nobody has to die to save both the mommy and the son. If you choose the right dialog decision(s) after deciding to let Jowan help, or set Jowan free and have either Morrigan or Wynne in your party when you try to figure out how to save Connor, they will all say that you can do a ritual with lots of lyrium and mages (Jowan's first suggestion is the blood ritual, but you can easily ask for alternatives).

Unless I misunderstood what you were saying.

Really?  I must've chosen wrong options then somehow.  I recall dialogue about mages and lyrium, but also the mage present saying that they weren't really available and when asking for options have nver gotten that alternative.  You have done it that way?  If so, had you completed the Circle quest beforehand?

[Marik333]

Yes, yes, and no.



My very first mage went straight for Redcliffe, and offered Jowan a chance to redeem himself by letting him out of his cell. When he talked about the blood ritual, I asked if there were no other alternatives; eventually that led to him talking about the lyrium possibility, so I headed to the Circle Tower. After fighting my way through that (siding with the mages, of course), I had the opportunity to ask Irving if he would come help free a possessed child. From there, it was into the Fade, to a happy solution for all.

[Dallo]

Marik333 wrote...

Yes, yes, and no.

My very first mage went straight for Redcliffe, and offered Jowan a chance to redeem himself by letting him out of his cell. When he talked about the blood ritual, I asked if there were no other alternatives; eventually that led to him talking about the lyrium possibility, so I headed to the Circle Tower. After fighting my way through that (siding with the mages, of course), I had the opportunity to ask Irving if he would come help free a possessed child. From there, it was into the Fade, to a happy solution for all.

Interesting...

I wonder whether it was because you were a mage?  Can anyone confirm doing it this way without being a mage?

Even so, Marik333, I guess you'd concede that doing it that way impacts the suspense and urgency built up by the scenario somewhat? 

[Marik333]

Not really. As Bann Teagan says, the mage's tower is only a day's journey away, so it doesn't HAVE to break immersion if you don't let it. Besides, the demon has no territory left to it; it's cornered, and it seems to react adversely to direct confrontation, since it runs away in the first place. I trust Teagan and a horde of knights to be able to keep down whatever it has locked away upstairs for a day or two.

But I can see what you mean, sorta. That's why I did the mage tower first in my "canon" playthrough.

Edit: And, according to the Wiki, you don't have to be a mage to get Jowan to tell you about the lyrium option.

Modifié par Marik333, 14 mars 2010 - 12:17 .

[Emma-Lath]

You don't have to be a mage to get that opition, I've done it as a rogue and a warrior.

edit: and also the first time I did it I had no idea whether or not the demon would of killed everyone by the time I got back, which was pretty cool.  

Modifié par lala_lover, 14 mars 2010 - 12:20 .

[Realmzmaster]

Marik333 is correct. You can save both Connor and mother. You do have to pick the right dialog options. No you do not have to complete the circle quest first to get the option.
Also there are several other great bows in the game, not quite as awesome as Far Song, but they do not cost 120 gold.
You may wish to look for Mage's Eye, Spear-Thrower, Bow of the Golden Sun, Falon' Din Reach (my character is using this bow), Wolf-Killer and Marjolaine's Recurve (but only Leilanna can use it). Some of these are found in chests and some off of dead darkspawn.

Modifié par Realmzmaster, 14 mars 2010 - 12:22 .

[Realmzmaster]

Going to the circle is not immersion breaking to me. It is not unusual to have to go for help while someone else holds down the fort. As stated the knights, Teagan and Jowan should be able to hold the retreated demon at bay until you return.

But if you did the circle quest first and sided with the templars then this recourse will not be open to you. You then have to decide whether to kill mother or child.

[Gill Kaiser]

I just had Jowan enter the Fade using lyrium, and he saved the boy, so yes... it is possible.

[ejoslin]

I have no problem sacrificing Isolde. In fact, I've only sacrificed Conner once, but I can never find a good RP reason to leave Redcliff at the mercy of a demon that can mind control.

[Dallo]

ejoslin wrote...

I have no problem sacrificing Isolde. In fact, I've only sacrificed Conner once, but I can never find a good RP reason to leave Redcliff at the mercy of a demon that can mind control.

I'm with you 100% on leaving that demon around for any length of time.  Obviously as a player I 'know' it won't matter, that everything will be ok when I return, but when in role I feel the need to resolve the matter quickly.

I've usually sacrificed Isolde too.  It's mostly her fault after all, and she's a bit of a shrew, but on the other hand she's a mother and being a parent myself I can empathize with her a lot. 

Thanks for all your responses re this issue.  It's good to kow that there's a resolution that doesn't involve feeling like a self-appointed executioner.  Guess I've just missed it.  On the other hand, the flow of the game, the information/party advice that drives you, pushes you to Redcliffe first, which means that resolution via the mage's circle could take more time then I, in role, would be willing to allow.  On my 2nd and subsequent runthroughs, with foreknowedge, I always have gone to the Circle first, for obvious reasons.


@ Realmzmaster:  all those bows you mention are ok, I agree, but nowhere near as good as Far Song...
In context, 120 gold isn't really that much for that relative power.


Anyway, any other design decisions that have made you folks twitch?

Another one I didn't like much either is the fact that a dwarf noble can't  attain the dwarven throne somehow (eventually leaving Harrowmont as regent maybe).  Sure you're originally exiled and bereft of caste and kin, but eventually you're accepted back.  I've only played that origin as a male, so have no idea what the set up is for a female, but Bhelan is a younger brother....

[Kryyptehk]

About the Far Song bow, I think the way you have to get it pretty much exemplifies what DA is all about. Sure, you get the best bow in the game, but a man has to hang himself and his daughter (presumably) has to die in order to get it. No rewards without sacrifice.



On that same vein, I've never gotten it before. I could not imagine telling a man that his daughter was dead when I could have easily found her.

[Sandtigress]

Kryyptehk wrote...
On that same vein, I've never gotten it before. I could not imagine telling a man that his daughter was dead when I could have easily found her.

I've gotten it once.  <_<

On my first playthrough, I kind of, um, missed Valenna.   Like, totally missed her room.  And when I tried to go back to find her later, she wasn't there anymore.  So she kind of died and got thrown out with the rest of the servants' bodies.  I'm a bad bad person.

I saved her on the reroll of that character though. 

[Addai]

Marik333 wrote...

Not really. As Bann Teagan says, the mage's tower is only a day's journey away, so it doesn't HAVE to break immersion if you don't let it. Besides, the demon has no territory left to it; it's cornered, and it seems to react adversely to direct confrontation, since it runs away in the first place. I trust Teagan and a horde of knights to be able to keep down whatever it has locked away upstairs for a day or two.

A much larger horde of knights has already been turned into walking dead.

Really, you should not go to the Tower with any other expectation than to come back and find everyone (un)dead.  I've decided that none but my most Chantry-steeped characters can in good conscience take that route.  Most of the time, I take Isolde up on her offer.

Edit: And, according to the Wiki, you don't have to be a mage to get Jowan to tell you about the lyrium option.

Right, that option is always available.

[Kryyptehk]

Sandtigress wrote...

Kryyptehk wrote...
On that same vein, I've never gotten it before. I could not imagine telling a man that his daughter was dead when I could have easily found her.

I've gotten it once.  <_<

On my first playthrough, I kind of, um, missed Valenna.   Like, totally missed her room.  And when I tried to go back to find her later, she wasn't there anymore.  So she kind of died and got thrown out with the rest of the servants' bodies.  I'm a bad bad person.

I saved her on the reroll of that character though. 

I'm a perfectionist, so I've never missed her. But I did forget about her my first time around. I was looking through the rooms and saw her. I was like, "Oh, hey! Someone's alive! And my character apparently knows her....oh yeah!"

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

The thing to remember, when the demon first emerged and took control of Connor, no one was expecting it, and the whole of Redcliffe was entirely unprepared. That is why it turned out initially that way. No one was expecting the Arl's son to be a demon possesed mage, so things went downhill quickly. However, once you've gone to the castle and confronted him, it's no longer a surprise, evryone is on edge, and they are now ready to deal with him.



My point being that going to the circle of Magi for help does not necessarily mean expecting the demon to come out again and turn the village to ashes while you are gone. You can always imagine leaving a couple of your companions along with say, Chantry templars, to guard connor and execute him at the first sign of trouble. There are alot of workarounds for it, and I don't find it imemrsion breaking at all.



It depends on the playthrough and the nature of the PC you play, to go for that route.

[MorningBird]

For those looking for a means of saving both Connor and Isolde without breaking immersion:

Step 1: Clear the first level of Redcliffe Castle.
Step 2: Confront Connor and deal when his possessed corpses.
Step 3: In the dialog options that follow, say, "There has to be another way."

If you do this, the 'request aid from the Circle Tower' option will become available.

Step 4: When prompted to chose between killing Connor, sacrificing Isolde, or seeking aid from the Circle, choose the dialog option, "I'll have to think about it."

Step 5: Clear your way through the second floor to find Connor.

Step 6: DO NOT ENTER ARL EAMON'S ROOM.

Step 7: Talk to Connor and ask him when/if the demon will reappear.

At this point, Connor will reveal invaluable information about the demon, particularly the following:

- The demon has been crippled, and is unable to unleash another army of undead against Redcliffe until it recovers.
- Luckily, the demon overexerted itself fighting you, so its recovery is a LONG time off.
- The only thing that will provoke the demon into taking a risk and grabbing full possession of Connor again (in it's weakened state) is someone approaching Arl Eamon.

If you take advantage of this information, your Warden will not only learn that it's safe to Leave Redcliffe for a few days, but that it's by far the best option, as no one has to die as a result.

[Cuddlezarro]

I outright refuse to save both of them since its such a cheap cop out IMO



any sort of emotional tension that part of the game had went flying out the window when you can go gallivanting round the country and come back to find everything fine and dandy

[Addai]

Both times I talked to Connor he said no such thing about the demon- not sure what dialogue option triggers that. In fact, I got quite the opposite impression from him. He kept saying how everyone was in danger and that the demon could come back at any moment.

[MorningBird]

Addai67 wrote...

Both times I talked to Connor he said no such thing about the demon- not sure what dialogue option triggers that. In fact, I got quite the opposite impression from him. He kept saying how everyone was in danger and that the demon could come back at any moment.

Honestly, I think it has a lot more to do with what you say to Bann Teagan and Isolde than Connor.  Did you pick a definate side (Sacrifice Isolde, Circle Tower, Kill Connor) before you reached him, or did you go with vague, "it's something to think about" "we must consider everything" "I'm not sure what to do" answers?

[Addai]

I told them I needed time to think about it. But I also may have said "no, that would take too much time" when Alistair brings up the Circle.

[RBCharger]

Edit:  I messed up the quote on this post.

Modifié par RBCharger, 14 mars 2010 - 08:33 .

[RBCharger]

Addai67 wrote...

Really, you should not go to the Tower with any other expectation than to come back and find everyone (un)dead.  I've decided that none but my most Chantry-steeped characters can in good conscience take that route.  Most of the time, I take Isolde up on her offer.

I find it ironic that your "Chantry-steeped characters" would resort to blood magic which is what Jowain proposes.  Alistair is opposed to this ritual because of his chantry upbringing.

Modifié par RBCharger, 14 mars 2010 - 08:35 .

[Cuddlezarro]

RBCharger wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Really, you should not go to the Tower with any other expectation than to come back and find everyone (un)dead.  I've decided that none but my most Chantry-steeped characters can in good conscience take that route.  Most of the time, I take Isolde up on her offer.

I find it ironic that your "Chantry-steeped characters" would resort to blood magic which is what Jowain proposes.  Alistair is opposed to this ritual because of his chantry upbringing.

eh she was saying that only her most chantry happy people could take the circle tower rought not that her chantry lovers would do the blood magic ritual