70 réponses à ce sujet

[Addai]

RBCharger wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Really, you should not go to the Tower with any other expectation than to come back and find everyone (un)dead.  I've decided that none but my most Chantry-steeped characters can in good conscience take that route.  Most of the time, I take Isolde up on her offer.

I find it ironic that your "Chantry-steeped characters" would resort to blood magic which is what Jowain proposes.  Alistair is opposed to this ritual because of his chantry upbringing.

Other way round there pardner.  Only my Chantry-steeped characters go to the Tower.

[RBCharger]

Oh. I see that now. It must be past my bed time. haha

[Dallo]

My problem going to the tower, and particularly having to sort out the problems there before the Circle could assist at Redcliffe, is the same as relying on knights at Redcliffe to keep the demon at bay. Since I always want to grab any equipment that might be around I always check out the storage room near the exit to the second floor (and also the Vault on the 2nd floor). This activates the suits of armour, and of course there are undead in the storage room too, On this playthrough (and only on hard difficulty for this fight) only Teagan and Ser Perth (?) survived. So no real protection there, especially since Teagan has already succumbed once to mind control.

Kryptehk wrote



I could not imagine telling a man that his daughter was dead when I could have easily found her.

My point exactly. Either that or a failure somehow to honour a promise. Seems a strange way to unlock the game's best bow no matter how you look at it....

[Sabriana]

As for Isolde, she will be given the chance to atone by my PC agreeing to her sacrifice. The demon already took hold of everyone in the castle, including Teagan once. The mage's tower is 2 days (back and forth) plus, my PC has heard since Lothering that there is trouble at the tower. Granted, those were rumors only, but it is something to consider.

When my PC tells Isolde that she needs to think about it, Isolde tells her to "Hurry, we don't know what the demon will do". If merely thinking about options is too time consuming, how can traveling for days not be even worse.

Even if the undecided PC would get the demon to admit to being weak, it seems silly that she is not weak enough to not be ready to rip the PCs (and party) heart out if Eamon is approached. Something is askew here.

When my PC attempted to leave Redcliffe before the battle, Thomas came running after her, getting all bent out of shape. So for the PC leaving the village/castle at the mercy of a powerful demon is not an option.

When my PC asks Isolde if she is really ready to die, Isolde says the first honorable words of her entire existence: "If sacrificing myself allows Connor to live, I am ready. Let me atone for what I have done." So my PC allows her to do good. Probably for the first time in Isolde's life, she does the honorable thing.

As for 'Far Song', I have no qualms using the mod. Sacrifice or paying for advantages is all good and well, but finding and rescuing Valena is not a problem. In my first play-through (unspoiled) I ran into her on accident even. I will not allow my PC to sacrifice a woman and her father for a bow, especially because rescuing the girl takes one extra step and opening a door - nothing more.

[CalJones]

Hmm, I didn't even know about that bow! Heh.

[Addai]

I played this again today and again both Isolde and Connor are saying things that make it seem like a bad idea to leave the castle with the demon still in charge. I said "the Circle Tower is not far and the mages owe me," Isolde responds that Connor will not remain passive for long, and I said "perhaps not then" and said I needed time to consider. Connor says the demon is always watching, that she wants to hurt more people, and warns people to stay away, but says nothing about her being weakened.



Long story short, Isolde goes to the Maker again.

[Tarua]

Sabriana wrote...

When my PC asks Isolde if she is really ready to die, Isolde says the first honorable words of her entire existence: "If sacrificing myself allows Connor to live, I am ready. Let me atone for what I have done." So my PC allows her to do good. Probably for the first time in Isolde's life, she does the honorable thing.

I've seen many posts which express this extreme dislike concerning Isolde and I never understood why, could someone explain to me what evil or at least dishonorable thing she did?

[Kryyptehk]

Tarua wrote...

Sabriana wrote...

When my PC asks Isolde if she is really ready to die, Isolde says the first honorable words of her entire existence: "If sacrificing myself allows Connor to live, I am ready. Let me atone for what I have done." So my PC allows her to do good. Probably for the first time in Isolde's life, she does the honorable thing.

I've seen many posts which express this extreme dislike concerning Isolde and I never understood why, could someone explain to me what evil or at least dishonorable thing she did?

By not sending Connor to the Tower of Magi, she inacted a series of events that nearly destroyed her family and several lives.

She hired an apostate to teach her son magic, knowingly endangering him and others. It is a well known fact that mages are dangerous, especially untrained ones. She cannot feign ignorance on that. Then, the apostate she hired poisoned her husband. She sent all of her knights out to find what could have been only a legend. Then Connor made a deal with a demon to save his father. The demon then proceded to cause the death of several people, which could have been prevented if the knights had been there to protect the village.

[Sabriana]

Kryyptehk wrote...

Tarua wrote...

Sabriana wrote...

When my PC asks Isolde if she is really ready to die, Isolde says the first honorable words of her entire existence: "If sacrificing myself allows Connor to live, I am ready. Let me atone for what I have done." So my PC allows her to do good. Probably for the first time in Isolde's life, she does the honorable thing.

I've seen many posts which express this extreme dislike concerning Isolde and I never understood why, could someone explain to me what evil or at least dishonorable thing she did?

By not sending Connor to the Tower of Magi, she inacted a series of events that nearly destroyed her family and several lives.

She hired an apostate to teach her son magic, knowingly endangering him and others. It is a well known fact that mages are dangerous, especially untrained ones. She cannot feign ignorance on that. Then, the apostate she hired poisoned her husband. She sent all of her knights out to find what could have been only a legend. Then Connor made a deal with a demon to save his father. The demon then proceded to cause the death of several people, which could have been prevented if the knights had been there to protect the village.

That about sums it up nicely. As Teagan tells her "Your actions set everything in motion" when she whines at Jowan, and blames him (and just about everyone else but herself) for the events.

And when she tells everyone that she approached Loghain for help, Teagan nearly blows his stack.

She grew up with mages in her family, she should know better. She also knows that Connor is possessed, yet, she acts all surprised when my PC mentions 'demons'. Then she lures Teagan back, knowing full well that he'd be no match for an abomination.

Kryyptehk is being kind. Did you walk around Redcliffe? The mayor will tell you that many people have died, including those who tried to flee. Did you listen to the children asking for their parents? Did you talk to Kaitlyn? Did you hear the fear in everyone's voices when the citizens and militia talk to one another? Did you see the horror in their faces when evening falls and the undead approach?

That's Isolde's handiwork. Had she done the lawful thing, and handed over the child, none of this would have happened, including Connor turning into an abomination. Instead she breaks the law twice (not giving Connor to the Circle, and knowinlgy hiring an Apostate), and the people under her care (she's the Arlessa, after all) die left and right, and are turned into undead.

[Realmzmaster]

Isolde knew her son was showing signs of magic. She was scared that she would lose her son to the Circle. Also Isolde was a very pious woman. Mages cannot inherit a title or hold land and need to be trained. She also knew that since her son was showing magical tendencies that he could become possessed or easily controlled (which is what happened).
Isolde sought a tutor outside of the Circle to tutor her son enough to hide his magic. Loghain suggested Jowan a blood mage that he had taken from the templar who captured him.
Jowan was sent by Loghain to poison Arl Eamon (Isolde's husband).
Connor to save his father from the poison made a deal with a demon in the Fade while he sleep. Connor's magical ability made it easier for the demon to control and if neccessary possess him.
After the party defended the village and met with Teagan, Isolde somehow convinced the demon to allow her to go to the village. She begs Teagan to return with her to the castle. She hids the truth from Teagan and the party about Connor. Teagan gives the PC his signet ring to open a secret passage in the windmill to the castle.
When the party meets the Connor/Demon, Teagan's mind is being controlled by the demon. Isolde knew all about her son's possession, but did not tell the party or Teagan.
I understand that Isolde did not want to lose Connor, but her son was a danger to himself and everyone else without the proper training.
Isolde was scared that her husband (who also did not know about Connor's magical ability) would do the right action and send Connor to the Circle.
Edit:  ninjaed

Modifié par Realmzmaster, 15 mars 2010 - 08:14 .

[Tarua]

[/quote]

By not sending Connor to the Tower of Magi, she inacted a series of events that nearly destroyed her family and several lives.

She hired an apostate to teach her son magic, knowingly endangering him and others. It is a well known fact that mages are dangerous, especially untrained ones. She cannot feign ignorance on that. Then, the apostate she hired poisoned her husband. She sent all of her knights out to find what could have been only a legend. Then Connor made a deal with a demon to save his father. The demon then proceded to cause the death of several people, which could have been prevented if the knights had been there to protect the village.

[/quote]

Yes, she knew that untrained mages are dangerous, that's why she hired Jowan, trusting Loghain selecting him.
So, she loves her son and her husband very much and trusts the hero of Ferelden - yes, those decisions turn out bad, but evil?

[Kryyptehk]

Tarua wrote...

By not sending Connor to the Tower of Magi, she inacted a series of events that nearly destroyed her family and several lives.

She hired an apostate to teach her son magic, knowingly endangering him and others. It is a well known fact that mages are dangerous, especially untrained ones. She cannot feign ignorance on that. Then, the apostate she hired poisoned her husband. She sent all of her knights out to find what could have been only a legend. Then Connor made a deal with a demon to save his father. The demon then proceded to cause the death of several people, which could have been prevented if the knights had been there to protect the village.


Yes, she knew that untrained mages are dangerous, that's why she hired Jowan, trusting Loghain selecting him.
So, she loves her son and her husband very much and trusts the hero of Ferelden - yes, those decisions turn out bad, but evil?

Evil may be an exaggeration, but given the fact that she knows how dangerous magic is, she should not have been so stupid as to endanger everyone by trusting an apostate, no matter who recommended him. And then when her husband gets poisoned, she sends all of her knights away, giving no thought to the danger she exposes everyone to. What if darkspawn came to Redcliffe? A small militia is hardly enough to save a whole arling.

edit: Formatting

Modifié par Kryyptehk, 15 mars 2010 - 09:06 .

[Sabriana]

She trusts the hero of Ferelden? Where did you get that from? All I got was "Who is this woman, Teagan?" and her getting all miffed about being questioned by said 'hero'.

Teagan is the one who trusts her, not Isolde. Isolde purposely lied to everyone, including the 'hero' and Teagan at their initial meeting.

Had she done the right thing, and trusted her 'beloved' husband, he could have told her right then and there that Loghain is an usurper in his (Eamon's) eyes. She also should know that Eamon and Loghain never saw eye-to-eye, even in the best of times.

She broke the law. Twice. She knew that her son had become an abomination, and says nothing to the point of openly lying to the 'hero' and her brother-in-law.

Pious? Yeah, only as long as it suits her. I don't think the Chantry would be so very pleased at her attempt at trickery - hiding a mage, and hiring an apostate.

[asaiasai]

When it comes to the situation of running off to the tower and the time it will take i RP it this way. I have several party members and i can only bring 3 with me at any time, so when i dash off to the tower to get the mages help going into the fade i leave the rest of the party at Redcliffe to keep an eye on things, while i am gone. Maybe not the absoulte answer but it does work for me.



Asai

[Tarua]

With 'hero' I meant Loghain, when she hired Jowan Loghain still was a one.

Yes, she broke the law, and she isn't very bright, but she only wanted to protect her family and I do not think she was fully aware of the risks involved.

[Kryyptehk]

Tarua wrote...

With 'hero' I meant Loghain, when she hired Jowan Loghain still was a one.
Yes, she broke the law, and she isn't very bright, but she only wanted to protect her family and I do not think she was fully aware of the risks involved.

I think she was fully aware, but I think she thought that it wouldn't happen to her. She's not too bright, and she had (sorta) good intentions with Connor, but you can tell she has no idea what she is doing.

[Sabriana]

Sorry Tarua, I misread that then. I too think she was fully aware that she was doing something very bad. Loghain, at the time of the hiring, might still have been a hero, however, as we find out later, Eamon never liked Loghain - at all.

Growing up in a family where mages are bountiful, she had to know the consequences of hiding a mage. And the consequences of hiring an apostate. Granted, she knew nothing of Jowan's "dabbling" in Blood Magic, but it was still breaking the law.

Protecting your child is all well and good, that's why my PC doesn't go the 'kill the kid' route, ever. I would do the same for my children, but I do hope that I have enough sense to stop them if I see they are turning into demon possessed mass-murderers.

All in all, I agree with Kryyptehk.

Edited to add: It is all Isolde's fault. Had she done the right and lawful thing, none of the following disasters would have happened.
Teagan is the one who actually points that out btw, that's not the PC's imagination.

Modifié par Sabriana, 15 mars 2010 - 10:36 .

[The_Abyss]

*shrug* people do strange (and usually stupid) things when it comes to their loved ones. Its easy to sit here and say "she shouldn't have done that" and all that as a 3rd party.

[ejoslin]

Sure is. But Isolde was charged with the care of those people. She broke the law many times, and because of this nearly wiped out most of Redcliff. She had no concern for other people's children, or parents, or anything. And would not acknowledge how much suffering her actions caused for these people who should have come first.

[sylvanaerie]

also it goes without saying you MUST have sided with the mages in the tower. I didn't realize I had lost the tower to the Templars till I got to Redcliffe on my first play attempt and couldn't get the mage tower option for the ritual. It got brought up that they could do it, but there was no "Lets go get them, its not far" dialogue line. *Facepalms* I was such a noob I didn't even realize it too.

I felt Isolde partly to blame for everything (not wholly).  Loghain has to share a large part and Jowan as well for being so stupid as to poison Eamon without questioning for himself why Loghain said he was a threat to Ferelden.  Connor contacted a demon in his sleep (How many of you can control what you do in a dream?) so I feel he is mostly blameless in this.

Perhaps its enough blame for Isolde to die but I never could really justify killing Isolde or her son (though I have seen both scenes on alternate paths I took to see how they play out).  And I REALLY REAALLLY hate that stupid cow.

Modifié par sylvanaerie, 15 mars 2010 - 11:04 .

[The_Abyss]

ejoslin wrote...

Sure is. But Isolde was charged with the care of those people. She broke the law many times, and because of this nearly wiped out most of Redcliff. She had no concern for other people's children, or parents, or anything. And would not acknowledge how much suffering her actions caused for these people who should have come first.

*shrug* She's human. Its always easy being the armchair general and say "she should have done so and so" when you aren't actually experiencing the situation yourself firsthand. 90% of the people condemning her would probably do some kind of mistake (perhaps not as bad as hers, yes, she was pretty stupid) if they were in her shoes. Like I said, rational thought is not always possible with regards to your loved ones when something pops up.

[Tarua]

OK, maybe I just like her accent ;-) but I always have trouble sacrificing her. Also the thought of leaving for a few days with a demon roaming around makes me extremely uncomfortable. So mostly I end up killing Connor - he is possessed by a demon after all, and I don't think anybody will feel save around him ever again.

[Sabriana]

He talks about Loghain's feats as a soldier, and admires them. If Loghain and Eamon were buddy-buddies, there would have been no need for Jowan in the first place. If I wasn't hallucinating when watching the RtO play-through, Eamon had little problem pushing Anora aside.



Isolde broke the law - twice. Her initial criminal actions set all the following events in motion. Let me point out again that it is TEAGAN who accuses her of that. And you know what? It actually shuts her up in mid-whine, she stutters "but I...I..." and then looks very guilty.



@ Tarua

And that's the beauty of role-playing. I can never sacrifice the child, because my PC is of the opinion that he is blame-less. Had his mother acted in the lawful way, he would never have had to experience possession and becoming an abomination. He was no match for the demon.

In that manner, handing a child over to experienced mages, makes sense. I do hate them being locked away for life, and that they are ripped from their families. I don't know if the Chantry will allow family-ties, but seeing how easy it is for demons to take over an inexperienced, unprotected child, it is truly better to hand the child over to people who know what to do with child-mages.